Young People: Remand in Custody

Justice written question – answered at on 5 November 2009.

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Photo of Rudi Vis Rudi Vis Labour, Finchley and Golders Green

To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which local authorities have placed children in secure training centres on remand in each month in the last two years.

Photo of Maria Eagle Maria Eagle Minister of State (Ministry of Justice) (also in Government Equalities Office), Minister of State (Government Equalities Office) (also in the Ministry of Justice)

The decision as to whether to remand a young person under 18 to custody is entirely for the courts. The following tables set out the number of occasions on which young people have been remanded into secure training centres from each Youth Offending Team between September 2007 and August 2009. The data have been provided by the Youth Justice Board and are drawn from administrative computer systems and as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing and may be subject to change over time. The data are given by Youth Offending Team, rather then local authority, as data are not recorded by local authority.

2007 2008
Youth offending team Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug
Barking and Dagenham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Barnet 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Barnsley 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bath and North East Somerset 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bedfordshire 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bexley 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Birmingham 1 0 0 1 1 2 0 0 0 1 0 1
Blackburn with Darwen 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Blackpool 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Blaenau, Gwent and Caerphilly 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bolton 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bournemouth and Poole 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bracknell Forest 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bradford 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Brent 1 2 1 0 1 1 2 0 1 1 0 1
Bridgend 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Brighton and Hove 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
Bristol 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
Bromley 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 1
Buckinghamshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bury 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Calderdale 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cambridgeshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Camden 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cardiff 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Carmarthenshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Ceredigion 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cheshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Conwy and Denbighshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cornwall 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Coventry 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
Croydon 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Cumbria 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Darlington 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Derby 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Derbyshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Devon 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Doncaster 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Dorset 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Dudley 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Durham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Ealing 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
East Riding of Yorkshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
East Sussex 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Enfield 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Essex 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Flintshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gateshead 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
Gloucestershire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Greenwich 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
Gwynedd Mon 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hackney 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Halton and Warrington 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hammersmith and Fulham 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1
Haringey 0 0 1 1 1 0 2 0 0 0 0 1
Harrow 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Hartlepool 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
Havering 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hertfordshire 0 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1
Hillingdon 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0
Hounslow 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Islington 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0
Kensington and Chelsea 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Kent 0 1 1 0 2 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
Kingston-upon-Hull 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Kingston-upon-Thames 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Kirklees 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Knowsley 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Lambeth 1 0 3 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0
Lancashire 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Leeds 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
Leicester City 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Leicestershire 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
Lewisham 0 0 1 0 2 1 0 1 0 1 1 1
Lincolnshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Liverpool 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0
Luton 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Manchester 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Medway 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Merthyr Tydfil 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Merton 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 2 0 0
Milton Keynes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Monmouthshire and Torfaen 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Neath Port Talbot 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Newcastle-upon-Tyne 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1
Newham 1 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 0 0 1 1
Newport 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Norfolk 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
North East Lincolnshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
North Lincolnshire 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0
North Somerset 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
North Tyneside 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
North Yorkshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0
Northamptonshire 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Northumberland 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Nottingham 1 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 1 0 0 0
Nottinghamshire 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
Oldham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Oxfordshire 1 0 0 2 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
Pembrokeshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Peterborough 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Plymouth 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1
Powys 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Reading 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
Redbridge 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Rhondda Cynon Taff 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Richmond-upon-Thames 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Rochdale 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Rotherham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Salford 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0
Sandwell 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Sefton 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sheffield 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0 0 0 1 0
Shropshire, Telford and Wrekin 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Slough 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Solihull 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Somerset 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
South Gloucestershire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
South Tees 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
South Tyneside 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Southend-on-Sea 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Southwark 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 2 1
St. Helens 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Staffordshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Stockport 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Stockton-on-Tees 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Stoke-on-Trent 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
Suffolk 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sunderland 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
Surrey 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sutton 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1
Swansea 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Swindon 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Tameside 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Thurrock 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torbay 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Tower Hamlets and City of London 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 1
Trafford 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Vale of Glamorgan 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wakefield 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Walsall 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Waltham Forest 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0
Wandsworth 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0
Warwickshire 0 0 0 1 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0
Wessex 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 2 0 1 2 0
West Berkshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
West Sussex 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Westminster 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0
Wigan 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Wiltshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Windsor and Maidenhead 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wirral 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wokingham 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wolverhampton 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1
Worcestershire and Herefordshire 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1
Wrexham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
York 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Total 16 14 21 21 29 30 20 12 18 17 29 35
2008 2009
Youth offending team Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug
Barking and Dagenham 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Barnet 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Barnsley 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bath and North East Somerset 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bedfordshire 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 0
Bexley 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Birmingham 0 1 3 0 2 2 1 2 3 3 0 0
Blackburn with Darwen 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Blackpool 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Blaenau, Gwent and Caerphilly 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bolton 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bournemouth and Poole 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bracknell Forest 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bradford 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Brent 1 1 0 0 3 1 1 0 1 0 0 3
Bridgend 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Brighton and Hove 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bristol 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Bromley 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
Buckinghamshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bury 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Calderdale 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cambridgeshire 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0
Camden 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cardiff 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Carmarthenshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Ceredigion 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Cheshire 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
Conwy and Denbighshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Cornwall 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0
Coventry 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Croydon 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 2 3 1
Cumbria 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Darlington 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Derby 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0
Derbyshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
Devon 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Doncaster 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Dorset 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Dudley 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Durham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 1
Ealing 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 3 1 1
East Riding of Yorkshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
East Sussex 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 0 0 1 0 1
Enfield 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Essex 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Flintshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gateshead 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Gloucestershire 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0
Greenwich 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
Gwynedd Mon 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hackney 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0
Halton and Warrington 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Hammersmith and Fulham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0
Haringey 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Harrow 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 0
Hartlepool 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Havering 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0
Hertfordshire 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Hillingdon 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0
Hounslow 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Islington 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Kensington and Chelsea 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Kent 1 2 1 0 1 0 2 0 3 1 0 1
Kingston-upon-Hull 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0
Kingston-upon-Thames 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 3 0
Kirklees 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 0
Knowsley 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Lambeth 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 2 0 0
Lancashire 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0
Leeds 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0
Leicester City 1 2 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 2 0
Leicestershire 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0
Lewisham 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0
Lincolnshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0
Liverpool 0 1 2 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0
Luton 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Manchester 0 0 1 0 0 0 2 1 1 1 0 0
Medway 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Merthyr Tydfil 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Merton 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Milton Keynes 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Monmouthshire and Torfaen 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Neath Port Talbot 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Newcastle-upon-Tyne 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0
Newham 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1
Newport 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Norfolk 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
North East Lincolnshire 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0
North Lincolnshire 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
North Somerset 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0
North Tyneside 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
North Yorkshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Northamptonshire 1 2 2 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0
Northumberland 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Nottingham 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Nottinghamshire 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 2 0
Oldham 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1
Oxfordshire 2 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1
Pembrokeshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Peterborough 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 2 0
Plymouth 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Powys 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Reading 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0
Redbridge 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0
Rhondda Cynon Taff 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Richmond-upon-Thames 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Rochdale 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Rotherham 1 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 1 0 0 0
Salford 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2 1
Sandwell 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 1 2 0 0 0
Sefton 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sheffield 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Shropshire, Telford and Wrekin 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
Slough 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Solihull 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Somerset 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
South Gloucestershire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
South Tees 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0
South Tyneside 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Southend-on-Sea 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Southwark 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1
St. Helens 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Staffordshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Stockport 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Stockton-on-Tees 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
Stoke-on-Trent 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
Suffolk 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
Sunderland 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Surrey 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sutton 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Swansea 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Swindon 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Tameside 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Thurrock 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Torbay 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Tower Hamlets and City of London 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Trafford 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1
Vale of Glamorgan 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wakefield 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Walsall 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
Waltham Forest 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0
Wandsworth 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 1
Warwickshire 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Wessex 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 3 2 1 2
West Berkshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
West Sussex 0 2 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 0
Westminster 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Wigan 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wiltshire 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Windsor and Maidenhead 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wirral 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wokingham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wolverhampton 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 1
Worcestershire and Herefordshire 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wrexham 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
York 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total 24 37 29 17 38 30 32 27 37 40 34 29

Does this answer the above question?

Yes4 people think so

No1 person thinks not

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