[Sir John Butterfill in the Chair] — A Surveillance Society?

Part of the debate – in Westminster Hall at 4:25 pm on 19 March 2009.

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Photo of Vernon Coaker Vernon Coaker Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Crime & Security) 4:25, 19 March 2009

Good afternoon, Sir John. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I welcome right hon. and hon. Members to the debate. I shall make some general remarks before going on to the more formal part of my speech. That is what I usually try to do.

This is an incredibly important debate, but let me clear the clutter out of the way, because that will enable us to have a better debate. It is not only the Government who wrestle with the issue of where privacy butts up against national security and the detection and prevention of crime. Obviously, no right hon. or hon. Member here would argue that no data should be retained and no DNA collected, or that there should be no sharing of data. The argument is always where to draw the line.

Those who drafted the European convention on human rights had the same problem. Article 8.1 states:

"Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence."

But they had to put in article 8.2:

"There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."

What we are wrestling with this afternoon is wrestled with all the time. When that is cleared out of the way—when we forget about the wicked people versus good people argument, accept that the debate is serious and fundamental, and that it goes to the heart of our society—we shall start to make better progress. If the debate is caricatured, we cannot make progress.

We debate the matter in many different guises, in many different Committees and in many different areas, and an interesting question that I often pose to the hon. Members for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) and for Hornchurch (James Brokenshire) is, what would they do? To be fair, the latter knew what he was doing and caveated his remarks about what a Conservative Government would do if they were elected, because he knows that responsibility for making such decisions is difficult. Does one collect the information in the way that one is told to, and how does one access and safeguard it? Views and advice on where the line should be drawn are often conflicting. The debate has highlighted, thoughtfully and interestingly, how we should take the discussion forward.

It is necessary for us collectively to get a grip on the debate and to try to move it on. Before making my formal comments, I shall make some concrete proposals on some of the things that I shall try to do with regard to the report produced by the Committee chaired by my right hon. Friend Keith Vaz. He has had to leave for a short while, but I congratulate him, and the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington and his Select Committee colleagues, because it is an excellent and challenging report.

If there is one thing that works exceedingly well in Parliament, it is the Select Committee system. This is an exceptionally good report. It is challenging, evidence-based, thoughtful and non-partisan, and it addresses the issues. I am glad that my right hon. Friend has come back into the Chamber, because I think that the Select Committee system overall is one of the best parts of our Parliament and the Home Affairs Committee is one of the best Select Committees. I am not being sycophantic to him. The report is excellent. It challenges the Government to do things, and causes us to stop and think.

This issue involves not only legal change, but cultural change. It is about all of us giving a bit more thought and time to data management. I shall show how the Home Office is at the forefront of that drive. The point about cultural change is serious. The Committee made the point that, culturally, individuals have to change; this is not just about big Government decisions. There is a need for everyone to take more responsibility for the issue.

While walking into the Home Office today—this is not something that was set up—members of staff and civil servants were given a leaflet that said:

"Safeguarding the information we handle is a personal responsibility. All Home Office HQ staff including HQ contract and HQ agency staff must complete the Protecting Information e-learning training by 31st March 2009.

If you have not already done so, you must complete the mandatory Protecting Information e-learning course by 31st March".

The leaflet tells them how to do that and says:

"It's up to you".

Far be it from me to say that that means that, therefore, all the different issues that have been raised this afternoon and in my right hon. Friend's report have been solved, but it does show that there is some movement in the undergrowth on taking this issue much more seriously.

Also recommended by the Committee was a Home Office information charter, which is now available on the website. We even have an information rights team. That is progress and radical civil service change for you. The serious point, which is very important, is that change is there.

My right hon. Friend Mr. George made a point about the importance of the private security industry, and I agree with him about that. As long as I have been a Home Office Minister, he has come to see me, advised me and challenged me about the role of the security industry as a whole. He and I have had a lot of debate and discussion about the role of the Security Industry Authority and how things should be changed. The private security industry is unrecognisable from what it was previously, and it is thanks to my right hon. Friend and people like him that that change has taken place.

I agreed with my right hon. Friend's answer to the question put to him by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East. I do not care how many cameras there are; I want effective cameras. If there needs to be an increase in the number of effective cameras, there needs to be an increase. I think that the public will accept that. They will not accept it if cameras just appear and no thought has been given to that. There could be 300 cameras or there could be three. Their effectiveness and placement are what is important.

The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington made a good point, which I will look into. He knows that I try to answer the question and if I do not know the answer, I look into the issue. His idea to look at prior approval for some of the things that appear on the website is probably a difficult one to achieve, but that does not mean that it should not be considered. He is right to say that some of the things that appear are of great concern. Because something is difficult, that does not mean that we should not do it. I had not thought of what he suggested, but I will consider it. It is an interesting perspective on the issue.