[Mr. Roger Gale in the Chair] — Prison Overcrowding/Sentencing Policy

Part of the debate – in Westminster Hall at 10:27 am on 23 April 2008.

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Photo of Edward Garnier Edward Garnier Shadow Minister (Justice) 10:27, 23 April 2008

Exactly.

I have a United Kingdom interest in the matter, but I do not come to it from a purely party political standpoint because, like the hon. Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, I am an officer of the justice unions parliamentary group. I fear that I do not attend its meetings as actively as the hon. Gentlemen, but the fact that I am an officer of the group indicates that I have a profound interest in the matter, which brings me to a point that I must make, not just as a formality, but because it informs the way in which I consider such issues.

I have been at the Bar for 35 years, which is a hideous thought, and for the past 10 years or so, I have also been a Crown court recorder, dealing with criminal cases with juries in the London Crown courts. When I sit as a part-time judge in the London criminal courts, I see a conveyor belt of people suffering from drug and alcohol problems who have been accused of committing crimes. Unfortunately, I often have to send those who are convicted to prison. What worries me is that I know that I am sending them to a grossly overcrowded prison estate in which, if they have a drug problem, they might start on a course to detoxify them, get them off drugs, and help them to stay clean, but, as other hon. Members have said—as they could have said last week, the week before or five years ago—they will then be churned through the system. There is a metaphorical jumbo jet of prisoners flying around the country from prison to prison.

At Canterbury Crown court, 10 people may be sent to prison every Monday. They may go initially to Canterbury prison for assessment and so on, but to make room for them, the governor must send 10 prisoners out of the back door. Where does he send them? He sends them to Maidstone prison. What happens at Maidstone Crown court? The judges send 10 people to prison, but to fit them in the governor of Maidstone prison must not only send 10 prisoners out to fit in the 10 from Canterbury, but must get 10 others out to fit in the 10 from Maidstone Crown court. That is 20, so where do they go? They go to Lewes prison. You can imagine, Mr. Gale, the increasing number of prisoners emerging from the sentencing process and being shunted around the prison estate all over the country. The numbers grow and grow.

We now have a prison population of 82,000, and it is obscene that we are making men live in lavatories. Around 3,000 or 4,000 prisoners are trebled up in cells designed for one person, and about 17,000 are doubled up. I need not go into the details, but they are obvious. We can congratulate ourselves that there is no more slopping out, except at Exeter prison, and it is disgusting that there is still slopping out in 2008. The obverse of that coin—my congratulatory words about having got rid of slopping out in all prisons except Exeter—is that because there is now sanitation in cells, two or three men sleep, eat and live in a lavatory. There is no privacy, and it is not surprising that the reoffending rate is so high when people are put into adverse conditions that go beyond the courts' sentences. People are sentenced to lose their liberty. I sentence people not to live in public lavatories in inhumane and disgusting conditions, but to lose their liberty for a finite period.

Annotations

Alix Cull
Posted on 1 May 2008 11:00 am (Report this annotation)

How many prisoners are suffering from severe and enduring mental illness who could and should be treated in the Mental Health Services? The new Mental Health Act has been criticised for preventing patients from seeking help when they become ill. Many do not have the insight to understand that they are iil, and thus fall through the medical system and end up in the penal system. I read fairly recently that there are too few Magistrates.Many do not have knowledge about mental ilness, and it is my opinion that any history of mental illness should be made available in the Courts in order that mentally ill people could and should be disposed of in the corect way. i.e. the mentlly ill to the Mentl Health Services, and criminals to the Criminal Justice system.
I appreciate the diffuclt jobs which are undertaken by the Mental Health Teams, and also by Prison Officers. Neither of these professions are sufficiently staffed to cope with an increaseng number of mentally ill people. What does the Government propose to do about this? Also Care in the Commmunity of which I approve in a large number of cases, but which requires sufficent staff to cope, was not thought out before the closure of hospitals.