First Minister’s Question Time – in the Scottish Parliament at on 16 January 2025.
Today, Scotland’s nurses have spoken. A damning report from the Royal College of Nursing lays bare our broken national health service. First-hand accounts from more than 500 Scottish nurses reveal a lack of dignity and privacy for patients who are stuck in corridors and side rooms. They describe scenes of chaos, patient safety being compromised due to a shortage of beds and a dangerous lack of medication and oxygen. It is page after page of shocking and desperate testimony.
One nurse said:
“It is degrading, undignified, and at times unsafe for patients who are already angry due to the long waits, sometimes waiting in”
emergency departments
“for over 35 hours to go to a ward, just to be put in the corridor. The system is broken.”
Does John Swinney agree with Scotland’s nurses that Scotland’s NHS is broken?
The first thing that I want to do is to apologise to any individual who has had an unsatisfactory experience with the care that they have received and with the congestion in hospitals.
I commend, as I did last week, NHS staff for their unremitting commitment to ensuring that the system is able to deliver as best it can in the face of unprecedented demand. I recounted to the Parliament last week the enormity of the increase in flu cases that have been wrestled with in the NHS over the past few weeks.
The Government is entirely focused on ensuring that we meet the needs of patients and that we support staff in undertaking the essential work that they do, given the enormous increase in demand that we have faced in recent weeks.
Although apologies are welcome, as is commending staff, change is required. The report confirms that hospital overcrowding is at dangerous levels, with one nurse saying:
“I work in what is supposed to be a 32 bed ... assessment unit, recently we have had ... between 60-70 patients at any one time.”
We know the root cause of that: it is due to record levels of delayed discharge, which the Scottish National Party Government promised to eradicate 10 years ago.
However, SNP ministers now do not even seem to accept reality. This morning, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care denied that patients were regularly treated in corridors. In response, Colin Poolman of the Royal College of Nursing Scotland disagreed, saying that that has now been “normalised”. Who is right—Scotland’s nurses or the SNP health secretary?
The health secretary and I are fully aware of the prevailing circumstances in our hospital system just now. The health secretary has seen it with his own eyes during the visits that he has undertaken, and I saw it when I spent the evening of 4 January in the emergency department of Edinburgh royal infirmary, where I observed the enormous commitment of staff in the face of unprecedented demand.
I remind the Parliament that the level of flu cases that we have been experiencing and the level of hospital admissions are the highest that they have been since records began in 2010; they are formidably higher than the demand that we faced last winter. There is unprecedented demand in the system, and I commend health service staff for managing through these difficult experiences.
The measures that the Government has put in place to tackle delayed discharge, to ensure that we have better flow navigation in our hospitals and to ensure that same-day treatment services are available are some of the actions that the health secretary has taken to address the situation.
The fact that the health secretary has seen it with his own eyes but continues to deny it is absolutely damning. It illustrates a stark disconnect between what SNP politicians think about the NHS and the reality of what nurses are saying.
Here is a reality check. Some nurses are being forced to quit in desperation and disgust. A nurse with 10 years’ service said:
“People are dying as a result of ambulances being held at hospitals”.
Another said:
“It’s disgusting and we are on our knees but nothing seems to be getting done.”
Another said:
“It breaks my heart at the pathetic care that we are able to give.”
The situation cannot continue. It is absolutely heartbreaking. When will the Government bring forward a serious plan to fix Scotland’s NHS?
I assure the Parliament that, despite the enormous increase in flu cases that we have seen, with that figure increasing to the highest level on record, a reduction in the number of flu cases is now prevailing in the NHS.
I also want to assure patients of the steps that the Government has taken to ensure that we have the support in place to address the demand that exists, which, as I said in my earlier answer, comes from the same-day emergency care services, the provision of flow navigation centres, the provision of frailty units in hospitals and the development of the hospital at home system, which has significantly enhanced our ability to care for patients and to ensure that individuals are supported in the right context and in the right circumstances.
Mr Findlay asked me about reforms. Reforms were undertaken in the redesign of urgent care programme in December 2020. The independent evaluation of that programme has demonstrated that the patient experience is that the redesign of urgent care has resulted in shorter waits for many patients, as a consequence of the expansion of emergency care that we have put in place—[ Interruption .]
Members.
—and the expansion of NHS 24 services, which was a key recommendation of the redesign of urgent care programme.
What has helped us in this incredibly difficult period has been the fact that members of the public have followed the advice that the Government has issued, which is to secure the right care in the right place. That has reduced the level of demand that is prevalent in some emergency settings and has enabled us to provide the support that individuals require. That is what we have to do to navigate through periods of increased demand, such as the one that we have just experienced.
I really do not know where to begin with that answer. To say that what is in the RCN report is to do with the fact that it covers a period in which we faced a flu epidemic, rather than inaction, is absolutely preposterous.
Patients expect and deserve dignity and decency from the NHS, but nurses say that they cannot provide the treatment that is needed. I would like the First Minister to please listen to what nurses are saying. I have read the report, and I encourage him to do so. One nurse describes being
“disgusted and ashamed that this was the best we could offer a 91 year old lady.”
Another describes being “embarrassed and ashamed” at leaving a 100-year-old woman on a trolley in discomfort.
Another said:
“We are putting Scottish Government targets before patients and it needs to stop.”
What does John Swinney have to say to the nurses who are being let down and to the patients who are having to suffer such disgusting and degrading treatment?
I cited the flu rates because they were at their peak during the period in which the RCN survey was undertaken, which put the greatest burden on emergency care in the national health service. The evidence that I have put to the Parliament is directly related to the questions that Mr Findlay has put to me.
I accept and acknowledge the enormity of the pressure on the NHS. I have been completely candid with the Parliament about that over a number of weeks. As a consequence, we have been leading a process of supporting our territorial boards and the Scottish Ambulance Service. I know from the review call that I chaired last night that there has been a significant improvement in the delivery of healthcare in emergency situations as a consequence of the reduction in the number of flu cases that I have mentioned. I am grateful to members of the public for their co-operation in ensuring that they secure the right care in the right place, and I am profoundly grateful to staff for working so hard during an incredibly difficult and demanding period.
Mr Findlay asks what the public can expect of the Government. What the public can expect from me, as First Minister, is my unrelenting focus, working with the health secretary, on ensuring that we deliver the improvements and developments that will ensure that patients get the care that they require and that they are supported in receiving the care that is necessary to address their health circumstances at all times.