First Minister’s Question Time – in the Scottish Parliament at on 6 June 2024.
Jackie Baillie
Labour
I share the sentiments of the Deputy First Minister and Douglas Ross on this day, the 80th anniversary of D day. It is right that we commemorate all the Scottish, British and Commonwealth soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom and liberty in Europe. We will remember them.
On Sunday, it was revealed that the Scottish National Party will effectively hand back up to £500 million of funding that should have been spent on crucial economic and anti-poverty projects across Scotland. That is simply a scandal, and it happened when Kate Forbes was finance secretary. Indeed, £158 million had already been handed back because of the SNP’s failure to meet annual expenditure targets, a further £136 million was not spent by the deadline of the end of 2023 and a further £280 million is still to be claimed. That has all been confirmed today by the independent experts at the Scottish Parliament.
That is just the latest example of SNP financial incompetence. Will the Deputy First Minister tell me how the SNP has made such a mess of that?
Kate Forbes
Scottish National Party
In the very same report by the Scottish Parliament information centre that the member is quoting from, evidence could not be found for the £450 million claim. We said that very clearly earlier this week, and the SPICe report also indicates that that £450 million is not a figure that its researchers recognise.
The points about this story are clear. First, final expenditure figures will not be known until the programme formally closes in 2025. To have spent all the money a year in advance would itself raise questions. Secondly, we do not expect the final figures to be markedly different from those elsewhere in the United Kingdom or from those of previous programmes. Our commitment is to spend as much of the money as possible. The irony of the question is that the Labour Party has no intention of ever returning Scotland to Europe, therefore depriving us of European funding indefinitely.
Jackie Baillie
Labour
It is interesting that the clawback in Scotland is going to be greater than anywhere else in the UK. The scale of return in Scotland is likely to be 28 per cent; in Wales, it is 9 per cent; in England, it is 6 per cent; and, in Northern Ireland, it is 2 per cent. I tell Kate Forbes as gently as possible that I used to oversee European Union structural funds, so I know how the claims work, and I know the life-changing impact that the money can have. I do not buy her excuses for one second, because it comes down to the financial incompetence of the SNP Government, at a time when people are crying out for help during a cost of living crisis and when our public services are stripped to the bone. [Interruption.]
Alison Johnstone
Green
Members!
Jackie Baillie
Labour
It unforgivable that the SNP is wasting taxpayers’ money. The scale of the incompetence goes even further. New analysis published by the Scottish Labour Party today reveals that the SNP—
Jackie Baillie
Labour
Wait for it. That analysis reveals that the SNP has wasted £5 billion since it came to office. [ Interruption .]
Alison Johnstone
Green
Members!
Jackie Baillie
Labour
That includes agency spend costing the national heath service more than £1.6 billion, delayed discharge costing more than £1.3 billion and ferries now £330 million over budget—the list goes on.
Alison Johnstone
Green
Question, Ms Baillie.
Jackie Baillie
Labour
Given the real challenges in the country, can the Deputy First Minister explain to the people of Scotland why the SNP is wasting their money, because that is utterly indefensible?
Kate Forbes
Scottish National Party
What is indefensible is that the party that is pretending to offer change is short-changing Scotland by adopting Conservative budget rules. We know that, under the Conservatives’ budget, there was a proposed £19 billion cut to UK public services. To quote another Labour spokesperson:
“all roads ... lead back to Westminster”.
There are profoundly difficult choices ahead if the Labour Party continues with its plans of adopting Tory rules.
Rachel Reeves has said that there is no more money. She has made a virtue of that. When we look at the money coming to the NHS alone, we see that it is less than what the Conservatives were promising.
When it comes to the Scottish Government’s position on the budget, we look at the EU structural funds and the projects that have benefited from them. From the Highlands to the Lowlands, there has been significant benefit. We will continue to maximise the funding that is available to ensure that we tackle child poverty, grow the economy and meet net zero.
Jackie Baillie
Labour
That was a desperate response from the Deputy First Minister. She had no answer to the £5 billion of waste generated under her watch, and she knows that she is misleading the chamber, because there will be no return to austerity under Labour. [ Interruption .]
Alison Johnstone
Green
Members!
Jackie Baillie
Labour
Her attack is straight out of the Tory playbook. Is she not aware that the people of Scotland can see right through that very desperate spin from the SNP? People are tired of the chaos. They are tired of the sleaze. They are tired of SNP politicians not treating Scottish taxpayers’ money with respect. Failing to use millions of pounds is not treating the taxpayer with respect. Wasting £5 billion of public money is not treating the taxpayer with respect. Defending Michael Matheson and his £11,000 iPad bill is not treating the taxpayer with respect. People across Scotland are sick of the SNP putting party before country—[ Interruption .]—and they are sick of the financial incompetence that they end up paying for.
Alison Johnstone
Green
A question, Ms Baillie.
Jackie Baillie
Labour
Last year, Kate Forbes attacked Humza Yousaf and said that continuity would not cut it, but she seems to have failed to learn her own lesson, because all that we have heard today is more of the same. [ Interruption .]
Alison Johnstone
Green
Members!
Jackie Baillie
Labour
Is it any wonder that the people of Scotland are crying out for change from 14 years of Tory chaos and 17 years of SNP incompetence?
Alison Johnstone
Green
Thank you, Ms Baillie.
Kate Forbes
Scottish National Party
The people of Scotland are crying out for change—and they are not going to get it with Labour, that is for sure.
Let me start with a point of consensus. I, too, think that the public want to be treated with respect and that they are tired of spin. Labour has spent this week accusing the Conservatives of spinning numbers. That is precisely why there is an air of hypocrisy right now in terms of the figures that Jackie Baillie has come to the chamber with. At the end of the day, Labour has to answer a question from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which has said that Labour is effectively signing up to “sharp spending cuts”. Labour needs to have an answer to that, and I have not heard one yet.
Alison Johnstone
Green
I am aware of several on-going sedentary contributions from Labour members. I would be grateful if they could desist.
Kate Forbes
Scottish National Party
At the end of the day, we are proud of our record. Our most recent budget, using progressive taxation, has seen the Scottish child payment increase and the best-performing accident and emergency service in this country, it has delivered for business by slashing or abolishing rates for businesses and it has made Scotland the top destination outside London for foreign direct investment. That is a record to be proud of. However, it would be a lot easier to deliver those game-changing policies if we did not have Tory austerity on repeat.
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The political party system in the English-speaking world evolved in the 17th century, during the fight over the ascension of James the Second to the Throne. James was a Catholic and a Stuart. Those who argued for Parliamentary supremacy were called Whigs, after a Scottish word whiggamore, meaning "horse-driver," applied to Protestant rebels. It was meant as an insult.
They were opposed by Tories, from the Irish word toraidhe (literally, "pursuer," but commonly applied to highwaymen and cow thieves). It was used — obviously derisively — to refer to those who supported the Crown.
By the mid 1700s, the words Tory and Whig were commonly used to describe two political groupings. Tories supported the Church of England, the Crown, and the country gentry, while Whigs supported the rights of religious dissent and the rising industrial bourgeoisie. In the 19th century, Whigs became Liberals; Tories became Conservatives.
The Conservatives are a centre-right political party in the UK, founded in the 1830s. They are also known as the Tory party.
With a lower-case ‘c’, ‘conservative’ is an adjective which implies a dislike of change, and a preference for traditional values.