First Minister’s Question Time – in the Scottish Parliament at on 23 May 2024.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
Michael Matheson misused taxpayers’ money. He made a false claim for £11,000. He misled the public, the press and this Parliament. However, when the scandal came to light, the Scottish National Party circled the wagons and backed him to the hilt. The SNP said that he was
“a person of integrity and character”
and that the matter was closed, but it must surely accept the full scale of the deceit and abuse of trust. It is proposed that he be banned from this Parliament for 27 days. He is still sitting on the SNP benches today. Will John Swinney do the right thing and kick Michael Matheson out of the SNP? Does the First Minister accept that the SNP was wrong to fully support Michael Matheson?
Alison Johnstone
Green
We are clear that the purpose of this session is to put questions to the First Minister in his capacity as First Minister and to address matters for which the Scottish Government has responsibility. I will allow the First Minister to respond in relation to those responsibilities.
John Swinney
Scottish National Party
At the outset, I have to make it clear to the Parliament that Michael Matheson is a friend and colleague of mine. He has made mistakes, he has resigned from the Cabinet, and he has paid the roaming costs in question—there has been no cost to the public purse.
However, as I consider the findings from the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee, I have a significant concern. I believe that the process has been prejudiced. Let me explain why.
Both Stephen Kerr and Annie Wells made comments about the case, long before it came to the committee, which prejudged it. Stephen Kerr had the good grace to admit that he
“couldn’t meet the committee requirement to be unbiased”,
so he removed himself from the committee. He was replaced by Oliver Mundell, who has made no public comment on the case. I have no issue with Mr Mundell’s participation in the inquiry.
However, Annie Wells has made public comments. On 27 November, Annie Wells said that Michael Matheson’s
“desperate efforts to justify his outrageous expenses claim have been riddled with lies, cover-ups and the need for us all to suspend our disbelief.”
If a constituent came to me and said that they were about to face a disciplinary panel at work, and one of the panel members had made prejudicial comments about them, I would come down on that employer like a ton of bricks. That is the situation that Michael Matheson faces here, and that is why I will not support the sanction.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
That is incredible. Michael Matheson claimed £11,000 from the taxpayer. He expected the taxpayer to pick up his—[ Interruption .]
Alison Johnstone
Green
I would be grateful if we could conduct ourselves in a courteous and respectful manner, as is required of us by standing orders.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
Michael Matheson misled the public, misled the press and misled the Parliament. He expected the taxpayers of Scotland to pay £11,000 for a bill that he had racked up. It was not Annie Wells, Oliver Mundell, Martin Whitfield, Jackie Dunbar or Alasdair Allan who found Michael Matheson guilty—it was the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, which is comprised of members from across the chamber.
Shockingly, John Swinney is standing here today, defending the indefensible. MSPs must be honest—Michael Matheson was not. MSPs must act with integrity—Michael Matheson did not. MSPs must be trusted by the public—Michael Matheson is not. He is to be banned from this Parliament for a few weeks but, in the real world, he would have lost his job for what he did and what he claimed.
John Swinney has said that he and Michael Matheson are good friends and colleagues. They served in Cabinet together for almost a decade. Does John Swinney believe that Michael Matheson’s actions—not the sanctions—were acceptable? Would they be acceptable for any Member of Parliament? At any stage, since the scandal first came to light, has the First Minister made any personal representations to support Michael Matheson?
John Swinney
Scottish National Party
In answer to Mr Ross’s last specific question, before I became First Minister, I drew the issues about the comments from Stephen Kerr and Annie Wells to the attention of the convener of the Standards, Public Appointments and Procedures Committee, which I thought was important for me to do as a senior, long-serving Member of Parliament, because I am interested in the integrity of this Parliament.
Unfortunately, the integrity of the Parliament has been brought into question—[ Interruption .]
Alison Johnstone
Green
Please continue, First Minister.
John Swinney
Scottish National Party
The integrity of the Parliament has been brought into question because a member of the committee has not done what Mr Kerr did, which was accept that they should recuse themselves from the committee.
I have no issue with the participation of the Conservative member on the corporate body, because Jackson Carlaw has made no public comments about the case. However, I have an issue with people prejudging the case, because that brings the Parliament into disrepute.
I come back to the point that I made in my earlier remarks, which is that, if a constituent came to me to say that they were about to face a disciplinary panel at work and one of the panel members had made prejudicial comments about them, I would come down on that employer like a ton of bricks.
In my earlier answer, I said that Michael Matheson had made mistakes. He resigned and lost his job as a member of the Cabinet and he paid the roaming costs in question. There was no cost to the public purse. As a consequence of the issues that have been raised here about the conduct of the process, I do not believe that the sanction can be applied.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
That is incredible and indefensible from the First Minister. When he asked for our support to make him First Minister, he told us that he would be First Minister for all of Scotland. However, what Scotland is seeing is that he is the First Minister who backs his pals. He is supporting Michael Matheson as a friend and colleague, and is not doing the right thing for Scotland or this Parliament.
My colleagues Annie Wells and Oliver Mundell, and every member on that committee, went in to do their job, as they were asked to do by this Parliament. If anyone has brought the Scottish Parliament into disrepute, it is a member who tried to claim £11,000 from the Scottish taxpayer and get away with it.
The seriousness of this incident and the deep damage that the conduct of Michael Matheson has done to public trust in the Parliament demand that he must resign, but we know from his conduct so far that he is unlikely to do that. What will shock and appal people across Scotland is that he is now being endorsed by the First Minister of this country. I can announce today that if the SNP is not going to do the right thing for Scotland, the Scottish Conservatives will seek to bring forward a vote in the chamber next week. Our motion will state that Michael Matheson should resign for misusing taxpayers’ money and for making false statements to the public, the press and Parliament.
Will John Swinney do what he promised he would and lead this Government on behalf of the whole of Scotland and support our calls for Michael Matheson to resign, or will he simply support his nationalist friend?
John Swinney
Scottish National Party
I do not think that anybody could look at me and think that I am not an individual who cares deeply about the reputation and integrity of this Parliament. I have been in this Parliament—[ Interruption .] I have been in this Parliament for 25 years, since its foundation, and it has been the privilege of my life to serve here. I am the only member of this Parliament who voted for its establishment when the Scotland Act 1998 was put to the House of Commons. I care deeply about the reputation, integrity and identity of this Parliament, which is why I think that there is the risk that deep damage will be done to its reputation if the issue—[ Interruption .]
Alison Johnstone
Green
Do continue, First Minister.
John Swinney
Scottish National Party
—that I have raised is not addressed properly, as I invited the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee to do. I will not support calls for Michael Matheson to resign. Michael Matheson has suffered significant reputational damage and impact on his family as a consequence of losing office and the difficulties that have been created here. He has paid all the roaming costs in question; there is no cost to the public purse.
This Parliament needs to consider seriously the reputational issues that will arise from presiding over an unfair process.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
The First Minister has to consider carefully his reputation and the reputation of this Parliament if he continues down the route that he seems to be going down. Let me be clear that if our motion is successful next week, and if Michael Matheson does the right thing—finally—and resigns as a member of this Parliament, the people of Falkirk West could have the chance on 4 July, when there is a General Election anyway, to choose an MSP who is honest and has integrity.
Michael Matheson made a false claim for £11,000. That is beyond doubt—
Joe FitzPatrick
Scottish National Party
What about your £30,000?
Douglas Ross
Conservative
He was untruthful to the press, to the public and to Parliament.
Alison Johnstone
Green
Excuse me, Mr Ross. Mr FitzPatrick, I would be grateful if you would desist from commenting from your seat.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
Michael Matheson made a false claim for £11,000 of taxpayers’ money. He was untruthful, without any doubt, to the public of Scotland, to the press that covers our proceedings and to this Parliament, including our Presiding Officer. However, the SNP claimed that there was nothing to see here. It defended Michael Matheson every step of the way, and the First Minister continues with that today. Anyone in the real world would have lost their job for doing what Michael Matheson did, yet John Swinney is saying today that it is acceptable for an MSP to take public money and then not be honest about it, because he disagrees with a sanction of this Parliament.
I have to say that the public disagree, and they will soon have the chance to have their say on this scandal. They have an opportunity to remove SNP politicians who let them down. In seats up and down Scotland, it will be a straight fight between the SNP and the Scottish Conservatives. Does John Swinney believe that the SNP will be punished for its handling of this scandal, and for his actions, on 4 July?
Alison Johnstone
Green
Before the First Minister responds, I remind members that the chamber is not the place to campaign for a United Kingdom General Election. I do not want campaigning to distract members from their focus on issues that are the responsibility of this Parliament and the Scottish Government.
John Swinney
Scottish National Party
I think that Douglas Ross’s last question to me reveals what this is all about. I have set out that Michael Matheson made mistakes, that he has resigned from the Cabinet and that he paid in full the costs of the roaming charges, so that there has been no cost to the public purse.
My job as First Minister, as I promised Parliament, is to improve the lives of people in Scotland. My challenge in doing that is that I am having to lead a Government that is having to face up to 14 years of punishing austerity from the United Kingdom Government. I am having to lead a Government that is having to face up to the consequences in Scotland of Brexit. I am having to lead a Government that is facing the hard realities of the cost of living crisis that has been inflicted on our country by the mismanagement of the economy by the Conservative Government.
I look forward to setting out to the people of Scotland in this election the difficulties that have been created by the folly of Douglas Ross and his colleagues—[ Interruption .]—and I know that the people of Scotland will support the SNP in that process.
Alison Johnstone
Green
Before I call Mr Sarwar, I say that I would be grateful if members conducted themselves in a courteous and respectful way. We have many members who wish to put questions today.
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