Alison Johnstone
Green
The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-13118, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—
(a) Tuesday 7 May 2024—
delete
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill
and insert
followed by Personal Statement: Humza Yousaf
3.00 pm Selection of First Minister
(b) Wednesday 8 May 2024—
delete
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business
and insert
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care;
Social Justice
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Implementing the Cass Review in Scotland
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Supporting Scotland’s Colleges
delete
5.10 pm Decision Time
and insert
5.35 pm Decision Time
(c) Thursday 9 May 2024—
delete
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice
followed by Ministerial Statement: 2024-25 Finance Update Following UK Government Spring Budget
followed by Scottish Government Business
and insert
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Appointment of Scottish Ministers
followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Data Protection and Digital Information Bill - UK Legislation
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill—[George Adam.]
Alison Johnstone
Green
I call Douglas Ross to speak to and move Amendment S6M-13118.1.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
2:04,
7 May 2024
Exactly a week ago, I stood here and asked the Scottish Government, now a minority in the Parliament, to work with others, and I did so to seek just one thing: for us to stay behind by just 30 extra minutes, last Tuesday, to get an urgent statement from the Lord Advocate. Last week, Scottish National Party and Green members voted that down. I hope that, this week, they will support this proposal. This is a genuine request to get an update not just from the head of the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service but from a member of the Scottish Government Cabinet.
We last heard from the Lord Advocate in January, when she made a statement to Parliament and was questioned by MSPs. During the statement, she was clear that exonerating everyone—a mass exoneration of everyone who was convicted under the Horizon scandal—was not, in her view, the correct course of action. We are now into May and we do not know whether the Lord Advocate still holds that view or whether her opinion has changed.
We now know that, in just a matter of weeks, this Parliament will be asked, on 21 May, to debate and vote on stage 1 of the Scottish Horizon legislation in Holyrood. The next day, 22 May, we will debate stage 2 as a Committee of the Whole Parliament. How can we go into that important legislative process without knowing the position of the most senior law officer in Scotland?
Last week, when I raised the issue, George Adam said:
“There is no clarity needed. The Scottish Government has repeatedly made clear its position that proposed legislation”—[Official Report, 30 April 2024; c 6.]
on the Horizon scandal will be introduced. What is not clear is whether the Lord Advocate agrees with the Scottish Government’s position. I do not think it too much for this Parliament to ask for the Lord Advocate to come to this chamber to outline her position and answer questions about it.
We know that questions on the issue are due at First Minister’s Question Time this week. Pauline McNeill has a question on the issue at FMQs.
Pauline McNeill
Labour
Will the member take an Intervention?
Douglas Ross
Conservative
I will give way shortly. That shows how important it is across the parties that we get a response on the issue.
Pauline McNeill
Labour
The member will be aware that there was a five-year period in which the suspicions about the Horizon system were known. He will also be aware that no victims were contacted who had previously been prosecuted. Does the member agree that, given its actions, the Crown Office, which should have known through the Second Sight Investigations report that there were system flaws, should be fully accountable to this Parliament?
Labour is happy to support the Amendment to the business motion.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
I very much welcome the support from Pauline McNeill and the support that we got from Labour and the Liberal Democrats last week. I will be listening with interest to her question and the responses on Thursday.
Is it really too much to ask for this Parliament to sit for an additional 30 minutes tonight? Indeed, I think that we might even finish early this evening. Is 30 minutes too much to ask to allow sub-postmasters in our constituencies and regions across Scotland to hear from the Lord Advocate on whether she still does not believe that mass exoneration is the right approach or whether she thinks that that is now the correct approach and has advised so in relation to the legislation that is coming up in just a couple of weeks?
I am encouraged that the SNP wants to work across the political spectrum. I was disappointed seven days ago that it voted down my reasonable Amendment to the business motion. I hope that the SNP will reconsider today, and that it will vote with other parties in this Parliament to hear from the Lord Advocate, to allow that scrutiny from Parliament and, importantly, to give the answers that our sub-postmasters not only need but absolutely deserve.
I move amendment S6M-13118.1, after “3.00 pm Selection of First Minister” to insert:
“followed by Statement by the Lord Advocate on Post Office Horizon Prosecutions
delete
5.00 pm Decision Time
and insert
5.30 pm Decision Time”.
Alison Johnstone
Green
I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.
George Adam
Scottish National Party
2:08,
7 May 2024
As I said last week, the most important people in this are the families and those who suffered because of the decisions that the Post Office made. That is who we must all think of when we are dealing with the issue. I mentioned last week that that is the reason why we are introducing legislation, so that we can ensure that they have that protection and that they know that the horror of what has happened to them has come to an end.
The Parliamentary Bureau is aware that important protocols must be followed in relation to the introduction of legislation. Following the period of pre-introduction scrutiny, the bill is expected to be introduced on 14 May and published by Parliament on 15 May. Current expectations are that stage 1 will be on 21 May and that stage 2 will be on 22 May. That will allow MSPs the opportunity to see the terms of the Scottish bill ahead of stage 1, and there will be the process that Mr Ross mentioned.
Douglas Ross
Conservative
Given that that important process is now just a matter of weeks away, can the Minister confirm that the Parliament will hear from the Lord Advocate, for the first time since January, before the bill is introduced, to allow us to understand whether she still believes that there should be no mass exoneration of sub-postmasters or whether she has changed her mind?
George Adam
Scottish National Party
I appreciate Mr Ross’s tone this week. Once again, we have to think of the families outside the Parliament who are dealing with this issue. They want to know that we will create legislation that will make a difference and a change by bringing to an end some of the issues.
Stage 3 of the bill will follow as soon as the United Kingdom bill is finalised, so that any changes can be considered and, when appropriate, reflected in the Scottish bill. Timings will be kept under review, given the uncertainty around the timing of the UK bill.
It is important that everybody knows that we will be going through a process that will allow members to ask questions and will ensure that, finally, the people affected and their families have an end to something horrible that was brought about by the Post Office in the UK.
Alison Johnstone
Green
The question is, that Amendment S6M-13118.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-13118, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Alison Johnstone
Green
There will be a Division.
There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.
Alison Johnstone
Green
The question is, that Amendment S6M-13118.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, be agreed to. Members should cast their votes now.
The vote is closed.
Division number 1
Business Motion
Alison Johnstone
Green
The next question is, that motion S6M-13118, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme, be agreed to.
Motion agreed to,
That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—
(a) Tuesday 7 May 2024—
delete
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill
and insert
followed by Personal Statement: Humza Yousaf
3.00 pm Selection of First Minister
(b) Wednesday 8 May 2024—
delete
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business
and insert
2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:
Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands;
NHS Recovery, Health and Social Care;
Social Justice
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Implementing the Cass Review in Scotland
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Debate: Supporting Scotland’s Colleges
delete
5.10 pm Decision Time
and insert
5.35 pm Decision Time
(c) Thursday 9 May 2024—
delete
2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:
Social Justice
followed by Ministerial Statement: 2024-25 Finance Update Following UK Government Spring Budget
followed by Scottish Government Business
and insert
2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions
2.00 pm Appointment of Scottish Ministers
followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Data Protection and Digital Information Bill - UK Legislation
followed by Stage 1 Debate: Welfare of Dogs (Scotland) Bill
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
Question Time is an opportunity for MPs and Members of the House of Lords to ask Government Ministers questions. These questions are asked in the Chamber itself and are known as Oral Questions. Members may also put down Written Questions. In the House of Commons, Question Time takes place for an hour on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays after Prayers. The different Government Departments answer questions according to a rota and the questions asked must relate to the responsibilities of the Government Department concerned. In the House of Lords up to four questions may be asked of the Government at the beginning of each day's business. They are known as 'starred questions' because they are marked with a star on the Order Paper. Questions may also be asked at the end of each day's business and these may include a short debate. They are known as 'unstarred questions' and are less frequent. Questions in both Houses must be written down in advance and put on the agenda and both Houses have methods for selecting the questions that will be asked. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P1 at the UK Parliament site.
The cabinet is the group of twenty or so (and no more than 22) senior government ministers who are responsible for running the departments of state and deciding government policy.
It is chaired by the prime minister.
The cabinet is bound by collective responsibility, which means that all its members must abide by and defend the decisions it takes, despite any private doubts that they might have.
Cabinet ministers are appointed by the prime minister and chosen from MPs or peers of the governing party.
However, during periods of national emergency, or when no single party gains a large enough majority to govern alone, coalition governments have been formed with cabinets containing members from more than one political party.
War cabinets have sometimes been formed with a much smaller membership than the full cabinet.
From time to time the prime minister will reorganise the cabinet in order to bring in new members, or to move existing members around. This reorganisation is known as a cabinet re-shuffle.
The cabinet normally meets once a week in the cabinet room at Downing Street.
An intervention is when the MP making a speech is interrupted by another MP and asked to 'give way' to allow the other MP to intervene on the speech to ask a question or comment on what has just been said.
To allow another Member to speak.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
