T he next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-11143, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. I call George Adam to move the motion.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following programme of business—

Tuesday 14 November 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Topical Questions (if selected) followed by

Ministerial Statement: Ferguson Marine followed by

Scottish Government Debate: Building a New Scotland: Migration to Scotland after Independence followed by

Committee Announcements followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Wednesday 15 November 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:

Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;

Justice and Home Affairs followed by

Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.10 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Thursday 16 November 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by

Members’ Business

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:

Education and Skills followed by

Ministerial Statement: Clyde and Hebrides Ferry Service Contract followed by

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee Debate: Culture in Communities: The Challenges and Opportunities in Delivering a Place-based Approach followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

Tuesday 21 November 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Topical Questions (if selected) followed by

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee Debate: Female Participation in Sport and Physical Activity followed by

Committee Announcements followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Wednesday 22 November 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:

Wellbeing Economy, Fair Work and Energy;

Finance and Parliamentary Business followed by

Scottish Labour Party Business followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.10 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Thursday 23 November 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by

Members’ Business

2.15 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.15 pm Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Questions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:

Transport, Net Zero and Just Transition followed by

Stage 1 Debate: Disabled Children and Young People (Transitions to Adulthood) (Scotland) Bill followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 13 November 2023, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.—[

George Adam

]

The Presiding Officer:

I call Russell Findlay to speak to and move Amendment S6M-11143.2.

The Scottish Government has spent more than £80,000 on papers about breaking up the United Kingdom. It has just wasted more taxpayers’ money on publishing its latest instalment of propaganda, which it now wants to debate in Parliament. Even Humza Yousaf admits that those papers sit on a website and nobody reads them.

Policing is one of the many public services for which the Scottish Government has full responsibility. The outlook is dire for our hard-working police officers, who protect the public. In recent months, we have heard a series of shocking announcements about Police Scotland. One senior officer described Scottish National Party cuts as a “slash and burn”. The Criminal Justice Committee has been told that more than 2,000 police officers could be taken off our streets. The police say that they will no longer be able to investigate every crime in the north-east of Scotland. The Scottish Police Federation put it in the starkest possible terms when it said that “people may die”.

We are seeing a rise in recorded crime, and that is just what is being reported. The former chief constable said that policing is

“not one of the priorities” of the Scottish National Party Government. Yet, during the current parliamentary session, the SNP Government has not dedicated a single debate solely to Scotland’s police force, although we have already had multiple debates to argue endlessly about independence.

My business motion Amendment proposes ditching the SNP’s planned debate on independence and replacing it with a much-needed, long-awaited discussion on the future of Scotland’s police. I am giving SNP members the opportunity to make it clear where their priorities lie. Do they lie with the police and giving them the resources that they need to keep the public safe or with their own political obsession with independence? I know that my party and I will be backing the police, and I urge all members to do the same. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer:

Let us hear Mr Findlay.

I move Amendment S6M-11143.2, to leave out “followed by Scottish Government Debate: Building a New Scotland: Migration to Scotland after Independence” and insert:

“ followed by

Scottish Government Debate: Reversing the Decline in the Number of Officers in Police Scotland”.

The Presiding Officer:

I call Martin Whitfield to speak to and move Amendment S6M-11143.1.

My Amendment seeks to change a debate from one that the Scottish Government wishes to have with one that the Scottish people wish to have.

The other amendment that has just been moved—which, unfortunately, because of pre-emption, we will be unable to support—shows that, across this chamber, there are priorities. My amendment would allow the Scottish Government to talk about the homelessness crisis that we have here, in Scotland. The crisis is not unique to Scotland, but our constituents suffer differently, whether they live in a city such as Edinburgh, which has just declared a housing emergency, or in the country. I think, in particular, of constituents across the south of Scotland, as well as of the homelessness crisis among our students.

As I understand it, members on both sides are keen to ditch the debate on immigration and the fact that immigration powers should be in the hands of the Scottish Parliament. This week alone, we learned that 7,500 children are stuck in the asylum system that is being run by the United Kingdom Government. Is that not something that we should be debating?

I am grateful for the Intervention. [

Interruption

.]

The Presiding Officer:

Members, let us hear Mr Whitfield.

It will be interesting to see how the motion on migration is framed and whether, indeed, it talks about the individuals that the member has mentioned in her Intervention, because there is no indication in the title that has been offered that indicates that the debate would address those issues.

However, in the Amendment that is being proposed by the members of the Conservative Party as well as the amendment that I will move, we speak specifically about challenges that we and our constituents are facing in Scotland. That particularly applies to homelessness and comes soon after the Trussell Trust’s recent report on a horrendous increase in the number of emergency food parcels that have had to be handed out and provided for. We are living at a time when there are crises in our communities, and, as we have heard from members across the chamber, those crises are many and varied. However, I urge consideration of one particular crisis, which is homelessness. During Covid, we showed that we could deal with that situation. Now, we have abandoned those people.

I move amendment S6M-11143.1, to leave out

“ followed by

Scottish Government Debate: Building a New Scotland: Migration to Scotland after Independence” and insert:

“followed by

Scottish Government Debate: Homeless Crisis in Cities and Rural Areas”.

It has been a while since we have had one of these discussions at decision time. As always, I try to work constructively with other business bureau managers, and I will continue to do so in the future. Martin Whitfield’s proposed Amendment is valid and of merit, and I have no doubt that we will discuss it at future bureau meetings. However, it is my belief that Scotland’s Parliament must discuss Scotland’s future. Mr Whitfield and I might disagree about what that future holds for us, but it is my belief that Scottish independence would provide us with the necessary tools to deal with the issues and the challenges such as that which Mr Whitfield wishes to discuss, which demonstrates the need for the “Building a New Scotland” series of papers.

With regard to parliamentary process, nothing in standing orders prevents us from discussing matters that are beyond the powers of the Parliament. It is not unusual for the Scottish Parliament to debate and vote on motions in areas that are reserved. The proposed debate on “Building a new Scotland: migration to Scotland after independence” is not new or novel in that sense. We have had numerous debates in the Parliament on reserved matters, and they have allowed the Parliament to take a position or to send a message to those who are responsible for such decisions. In fact, nuclear weapons were the subject of a members’ business debate just last week.

On 4 October, the Government lodged a debate on the UK Government’s two-child benefit cap. Members of the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish Conservative Party took part in that debate without raising any issues about the reserved nature of the topic. Some members of the Labour Party even criticised us for being too narrow when focusing the debate on the two-child benefit cap instead of on the wider issues with the UK Government’s universal credit system.

It is important for us to discuss migration in the Parliament. In April this year, the Scottish Government led a debate on the UK Government’s Illegal Migration Bill and Labour members supported the Government’s motion, albeit with an amendment. They proposed no such Opposition to the relevance of that debate. Scotland’s population is projected to begin to fall within the next decade. The opportunity to discuss the role that migration can play in addressing Scotland’s distinct demographic challenges should be welcomed by all elected members.

I turn to Mr Findlay’s points. He made another exciting and riveting presentation. However, at the end of the day, as of 30 September 2023, there were 379 more police officers than in 2007, with Police Scotland recruiting almost 600 officers this year alone and starting around 1,480 new recruits since the beginning of 2022.

Once again, there is a difference between the reality and what Mr Findlay talks about. Scotland has more police officers per capita than England and Wales, higher pay ranges—[

Interruption

.]—for officers of all ranks—

The Presiding Officer:

Let us hear the Minister.

— and high levels of investment over the past decade, with 30 officers per 10,000 of the population compared with 25 in England and Wales. The recently agreed pay deal is for a 12 per cent increase over two years for the police workforce, and our police officers remain the best paid in the UK.

We will take no lectures and listen to no scenario from the Conservatives that we are not dealing with the police. We have made sure that Scotland’s crime has been at an all-time low since the 1970s. Mr Findlay might as well sit down, because there is no point in his boring us any more. [

Interruption

.]

With that, I would like to say that I have made my arguments—[

Interruption.

]

The Presiding Officer:

Members!

I have put my arguments forward, and I believe that Scotland must discuss Scotland’s future.

The Presiding Officer:

I remind members that, if the Amendment in the name of Russell Findlay is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Martin Whitfield will fall.

The first question is, that amendment S6M-11143.2, in the name of Russell Findlay, which seeks to amend motion S6M-11143, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

The Presiding Officer:

There will be a Division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access digital voting.

17:11 Meeting suspended.

17:13 On resuming—

I remind members that, if the Amendment in the name of Russell Findlay is agreed to, the amendment in the name of Martin Whitfield will fall.

The question is, that amendment S6M-11143.2, in the name of Russell Findlay, which seeks to amend motion S6M-11143, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Members should cast their votes now.

The vote is closed.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I could not connect to the platform, but I would have voted no.

The Presiding Officer:

Thank you, Mr Gibson. We will ensure that that is recorded.

The Presiding Officer:

The result of the Division is: For 29, Against 81, Abstentions 1.

Amendment disagreed to.

The next question is, that amendment S6M-11143.1, in the name of Martin Whitfield, which seeks to amend motion S6M-11143, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

The Presiding Officer:

There will be a Division.

The Presiding Officer:

The result of the Division is: For 49, Against 63, Abstentions 1.

Amendment disagreed to.

The next question is, that motion S6M-11143, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

The Presiding Officer:

There will be a Division.

The Presiding Officer:

The result of the Division is: For 64, Against 30, Abstentions 19.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following programme of business—

Tuesday 14 November 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Topical Questions (if selected) followed by

Ministerial Statement: Ferguson Marine followed by

Scottish Government Debate: Building a New Scotland: Migration to Scotland after Independence followed by

Committee Announcements followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Wednesday 15 November 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:

Constitution, External Affairs and Culture;

Justice and Home Affairs followed by

Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.10 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Thursday 16 November 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by

Members’ Business

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:

Education and Skills followed by

Ministerial Statement: Clyde and Hebrides Ferry Service Contract followed by

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee Debate: Culture in Communities: The Challenges and Opportunities in Delivering a Place-based Approach followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

Tuesday 21 November 2023

2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Topical Questions (if selected) followed by

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee Debate: Female Participation in Sport and Physical Activity followed by

Committee Announcements followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Wednesday 22 November 2023

2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.00 pm Portfolio Questions:

Wellbeing Economy, Fair Work and Energy;

Finance and Parliamentary Business followed by

Scottish Labour Party Business followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by

Approval of SSIs (if required)

5.10 pm Decision Time followed by

Members’ Business

Thursday 23 November 2023

11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions

11.40 am General Questions

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions followed by

Members’ Business

2.15 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions

2.15 pm Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Questions

2.30 pm Portfolio Questions:

Transport, Net Zero and Just Transition followed by

Stage 1 Debate: Disabled Children and Young People (Transitions to Adulthood) (Scotland) Bill followed by

Business Motions followed by

Parliamentary Bureau Motions

5.00 pm Decision Time

(b) that, for the purposes of Portfolio Questions in the week beginning 13 November 2023, in rule 13.7.3, after the word “except” the words “to the extent to which the Presiding Officer considers that the questions are on the same or similar subject matter or” are inserted.

The next item of business is consideration of business motions S6M-11144, on a stage 1 timetable, and S6M-11145, on a stage 1 extension. I call George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, to move the motions.

Motions moved,

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be completed by 3 May 2024.

That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Bankruptcy and Diligence (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be extended to 23 February 2024.—[

George Adam

]

Motions agreed to.