Electricians (Regulation)

– in the Scottish Parliament at on 25 October 2018.

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Photo of Christine Grahame Christine Grahame Scottish National Party

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S5M-14162, in the name of Jamie Halcro Johnston, on the regulation of electricians as a profession. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes the calls supporting the principle of the regulation of electricians as a profession; understands that, while over 100 regulated professions exist in the UK, including gas engineers, there is no protection afforded to electricians; appreciates that improperly-installed electrical work creates a significant risk of fire as well as other harm to householders in the Highlands and Islands and across Scotland; believes that the installation of electrical work by unqualified or only partly qualified individuals carries the risk of defects and safety issues arising; acknowledges the survey conducted by SELECT, which is the trade association for the electrical contracting industry in Scotland, which suggests that 93% of householders would expect someone claiming to be an electrician to be properly qualified and that 89% were not aware of how to check the qualifications of someone, and acknowledges the calls for the Scottish Government to consider how the Parliament’s powers over protection of title can be utilised to reassure the public of the safety of electrical work that is carried out in domestic and non-domestic premises.

Photo of Jamie Halcro Johnston Jamie Halcro Johnston Conservative

I am grateful to have the opportunity today to raise an issue that is of importance to every home and business in Scotland. Virtually all premises across the length and breadth of the country, whether on or off-grid, have some form of electrical installation. It is ultimately that body of consumers that I ask members to consider today.

First, I extend my thanks to all members from across all the political parties in Parliament who have signed my motion, and to the organisations that have taken time to meet me in recent months. I also thank all the people in the industry who have been in touch and the many who are in the gallery today.

Electricity, and the installation and maintenance of its supply, must be handled with extreme caution. In many cases, it seems that electrical products are more regulated than the electrical installation work that they utilise.

The consequences of poor work can be severe: damage to property, injury and, occasionally, even death. I was staggered, as have been many colleagues across the chamber, to learn that the people who enter our homes and businesses to install and maintain our wiring, fuse boxes and appliances need to have no qualifications at all and yet they can still call themselves electricians. That simply should not be the case.

The United Kingdom national contact point for professional qualifications shows 102 different professions that have protection of title, the most notable of which is the gas industry. We recognise that appropriately certified tradesmen are able to undertake work on gas installations.

Parliament has extended protection to other roles, such as door supervisors at bars, nightclubs and events.

That is not to say that protection of title will immediately solve every problem. Gas boilers are still fitted in homes and business premises by people who are not appropriately qualified. However, it must surely be at the core of the measures that we can take to create a safe and well-regulated industry.

For many years, organisations such as SELECT—the former Electrical Contractors Association of Scotland—and the Scottish joint industry board, which includes representation from Unite the union, the successor to the former electricians’ union, have been campaigning for the electrical profession to be recognised and protected. In more recent years, a number of organisations have co-operated with the Scottish Government as part of its working group to bring about changes to the industry to improve the safety of electrical work and better enable consumers to make the right choices when it comes to choosing contractors and tradespeople.

It is, however, almost three years since the issue was first raised. Not only has there been no action on it, the Scottish Government's position remains ambiguous. It is, of course, right that any approach is well considered before being taken forward. However, this work has already—in the main—been done.

Some have asked about the scale of the problem, and that point has been heard and discussed in some depth. SELECT and Unite have presented evidence to the working group that suggests that as many as 4,000 individuals might be operating in the grey market, undertaking unqualified or underqualified work on electrical installations. They fully recognise that that figure comes with caveats. The truth is that it is almost impossible to bring forward conclusive statistics. When faced with the question, few individuals will be willing to raise their heads and enthusiastically declare themselves as unqualified.

Photo of Neil Findlay Neil Findlay Labour

Does the member agree that, although he has just identified a huge issue, there should not be any moves in the industry to downgrade the role of electricians?

Photo of Jamie Halcro Johnston Jamie Halcro Johnston Conservative

I certainly agree. As shown in the motion, many more conversations need to be had to make sure that all such areas are encompassed in any legislation that is introduced.

As the greatest prevalence of poor and unsafe work is found in the domestic market—in people’s homes—there are other challenges. For most people, commissioning electrical work is not a frequent exercise. We know that many are not familiar with the industry or the bodies that operate within it. Although most expect a qualified electrician to arrive, we know that that is not always what happens. Members of the public generally assume that the title “electrician” comes with protections. When presented with evidence that it is not, the majority—93 per cent in SELECT’s survey—backed regulation to ensure that only people who have relevant qualifications can advertise their services as an electrician. A further 89 per cent wanted more information on how to check that an electrician is qualified.

Safety is, of course, central to the debate. What are the consequences of poor electrical work? In 2016, there were 619 casualties and 10 people were killed in electrical-fault related incidents across the United Kingdom. The figures for Scotland may be proportionately lower, but that seems to be little excuse when we are faced with calls for action to avoid such harm.

Many faults are latent: they can lie in wait for months or even years before a combination of circumstances cause injury to a person or damage to property. There are a number of possible approaches to protection of title, with which, I have no doubt, ministers will be familiar. Some people have proposed an extension to the Scottish joint industry board, with its membership opened up further to co-ordinate that. Others have suggested that the existing certification register of construction, which has operated for some time on a voluntary basis, could be modified and could have its remit expanded.

All the organisations whose members I have spoken with have emphasised that keeping costs minimal, keeping the solution simple and maintaining a light touch with business and electricians are key in their considerations. Enforcement will also be a concern. We should not introduce a regulatory framework and then allow it to be ignored.

A further concern is the need to ensure that continuing qualifications are recognised. Electrical work is evolving, and we must avoid the suggestion that protected title is a substitute for ensuring that qualifications are up to date or indeed that specialist work should be undertaken only by those with specialist qualifications. The existing professional bodies already demonstrate good practice and promote high standards of training among their member firms. That model should be embraced as part of any recognition and certification programme.

The issues are not beyond the wit of this Parliament to thrash out. However, the question that remains is simple: whether there exists, within the Scottish Government, the political will to make that happen. As I mentioned previously, many of the issues have already been discussed within the Government’s working group. However, I am far from alone in thinking that the process has dragged on for far too long. There seems to have been a broad acceptance, after SELECT commissioned its own legal advice, that the Parliament has the powers to act. Unfortunately, the momentum to introduce measures to improve safety is sometimes only found after incidents make it clear that the issues can no longer be ignored. I hope that, collectively, we can begin to take action now.

I feel that protection of title is a necessary component of ensuring safety in the electrical industry, but I recognise that it will not be a silver bullet. The National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation ContractingNICEIC—has emphasised the importance of raising awareness among domestic customers and has highlighted some of the ways in which it has been working with organisations to achieve that. I fully support that process. Today, I am seeking a sign that, after almost three years of discussion, protection of title is being seriously considered by ministers, in line with the wide support that such a move would have.

Photo of Clare Adamson Clare Adamson Scottish National Party

I thank Jamie Halcro Johnston for securing this important debate. I have not signed the motion, however. From my work in this area as convener of the cross-party group on accident prevention and safety awareness and my discussions with the industry, I feel that there is not yet a consensus as to the best way forward to achieve consumer confidence. That is the most important thing here. When people contract out and engage someone who describes themselves as an electrician, the customer should be fully sure that they are qualified and safe to undertake that work.

That said, I absolutely recognise the commitment to safety of both SELECT and Mr Halcro Johnston, and I recognise how important that is.

We have discussed some of the issues around what can go wrong with electrical safety. That is really important, and not just for people in their own homes and for social landlords. One only has to look at some of the testimonies on the families against corporate killers website to see examples of people who have been killed or seriously injured at work as a result of electrical installations or working practice not being safe.

Many of us take it for granted that our electricity is there on demand. When something goes wrong with it, we all feel the issues that that causes. Sometimes, as consumers, we do not understand how important it is to ensure safety.

Photo of Neil Findlay Neil Findlay Labour

I ask this in all sincerity: could the member help us by telling us who is not on board with the proposal to regulate the industry?

Photo of Clare Adamson Clare Adamson Scottish National Party

It is not so much about whether to regulate the industry as achieving consensus about the best way to do it. That is why I did not sign the motion. I acknowledge the mechanism that Mr Halcro Johnston has called for, but I do not feel that the consensus is there.

I welcome the work of the Government’s electrical working group and I am sure that the minister will have much to say about the work that has been completed over the past three years.

One of the barriers to achieving accreditation can be the perception that an administrative burden of paperwork and red tape will be placed on small electrical companies and individual electricians. Having said that, earlier this year I was invited to open and participate in the Institution of Gas Engineers and Managers conference in Edinburgh, where I saw a presentation from Stewart Davison of Gas Tag, who worked with the gas safety register that applies to all gas engineers.

Gas Tag is another mechanism that could be considered in order to achieve the consumer confidence that is so important. Gas Tag uses an online app. A gas appliance is tagged and the tag can be read with a QR—quick response—reader by a gas engineer undertaking any work. A lot of the paperwork normally associated with such work, for example the address, the time and what was done, can be recorded on the app at the time, and photographs can be taken to prove that the engineer has completed the work to a satisfactory level. The scheme is being rolled out to social landlords. I thought that it was an interesting example of how technology can help us to increase safety—which is what we all want—thereby increasing consumer confidence.

We are moving into the internet of things. The world is changing, with sensor technology and the ability for an installation or a fuse box to tell an engineer that something has gone wrong and that it needs to be serviced. All those things are of the future and could be used to improve this situation.

I welcome the opportunity to speak about that today and look forward to the minister’s update.

Photo of Alexander Burnett Alexander Burnett Conservative

I, too, thank Jamie Halcro Johnston for bringing this important topic to the chamber. I also thank members from across the chamber who were able to support the motion.

At a time when consumers are always researching products and services before purchasing, regulation is welcome to many across Scotland. I have previously told the chamber about my support for apprenticeships. I believe that the regulation of electricians as a profession would improve opportunities for apprentices, as it would offer wider and more comprehensive learning than some of the more specific electrical roles that had been proposed. We all recognise the benefit that apprentices bring to business. I refer members to my entry in the register of interests, as I am an employer of apprentices in the construction industry.

SELECT and the SJIB have noted that the status quo of having unqualified electricians is undermining individuals and companies who invest in innovation and apprentice and staff training. Therefore, accreditation for people entering the profession would not only be a huge benefit to them as individuals but help businesses to encourage fresh talent.

Everything is moving towards electrification as part of our push to prevent climate change, including many things from our transport and in our homes. Given that increased use of electrical products, we will require more electricians, and we need to do all that we can to encourage people into the profession.

As members have noted, unions, businesses and charities alike all support the principle of regulating electricians as a profession. I note Electrical Safety First’s point that more research is required on the potential benefits of protection of title, in consultation with all parts of the electrical industry. Unite mentioned that its members raised their concerns and frustration that

“people who have not met the established national and industry standards are able to use with impunity the title of ‘Electrician’”, and it would therefore welcome protection of that title.

The privilege of calling oneself an electrician should be limited to those who are qualified in that highly skilled profession. That would not only prevent rogue traders from carrying out electrical work that could be unsafe but help to reduce costs to the consumer by preventing the further repairs to shoddy work that are required. The overall cost of faulty electrical work in Scotland is around £120 million a year—and that does not even include the cost of major incidents.

Consumer confidence is important, and I am keen that regulation should not become a weak form of accreditation. I therefore back calls that there should be continuous assessment of the competence of a registered electrician. I am also keen to see a campaign to raise awareness among residents throughout Scotland of the importance of identifying and using registered electricians. That would be an important step in improving consumer confidence and helping the industry to reduce the numbers of rogue traders that are used.

Regulation should protect consumers but, most important, we must support electricians who are already carrying out work safely and properly. I therefore support the motion, with the added caveat that we must work with the industry to develop a robust system of regulation. [

Applause

.]

The Deputy Presiding Officer:

I am sorry. I understand why people in the gallery want to clap, but that is not allowed in the Scottish Parliament.

Photo of Monica Lennon Monica Lennon Labour

I thank Jamie Halcro Johnston for securing this important debate, which follows a determined campaign by organisations representing employers and employees, including SELECT, Unite, the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting and Electrical Safety First, to secure official legal recognition of qualified and competent electricians, in the interest of public safety.

As the convener of the cross-party group on construction, I have come to learn and feel passionately about the issue, so I am glad to take part in the debate.

Whether in the home or in the workplace, people deserve to be safe. Like 93 per cent of the Scottish householders who were surveyed by SELECT, I expected that any person who claimed to be an electrician would have had training and achieved qualifications. It is staggering that, in effect, anyone can call themselves an electrician and undertake work that they are not qualified to do. That puts everyone at risk.

Badly installed or maintained electrical work creates a significant risk of fire; there are also other risks, such as electrical shocks. Government statistics show that 69 per cent of all accidental fires in Scottish homes are caused by electricity. Safety risks might lie dormant for months, or even years, but those silent killers can strike at any time—it needs only a set to circumstances to combine to trigger them. An unregulated electricians sector makes it more difficult to hold rogue traders to account, and people are left to foot the bill for correcting unsafe electrical works.

I am the daughter of a health and safety officer, so I do not need to be convinced of the health and safety case for regulating electricians as a profession. I listened to Clare Adamson’s remarks about the concerns of some people in industry about the burden of bureaucracy. I am reminded of the saying, “We are here to remember the dead and to fight for the living”. Good employers who work with trade unions to improve health and safety do not see regulation as a burden—it is about people’s human rights. Too many people have died in workplaces for us to be complacent and allow the conversation to drift on.

Photo of Clare Adamson Clare Adamson Scottish National Party

To be absolutely clear, it is not that I think that any of the paperwork would be unnecessary. I was pointing out that there are now cheaper and easier ways of recording and achieving things. I was not at all suggesting that there should be any diminution of health and safety. Indeed, the cross-party group on accident prevention and safety awareness has discussed the issue on many occasions, and I invite Monica Lennon and Neil Findlay to come along and hear some of the testimony regarding the issue.

Photo of Monica Lennon Monica Lennon Labour

I would be happy to do so. People should feel reassured because the regulation of professionals is commonplace in the United Kingdom. For example, I am a chartered town planner, which is a protected title. There are already more than 100 regulated professions, yet no protection is afforded to electricians.

Regulation can spread best practice and facilitate on-going training, which are good things. That will become critically important when the new edition of the wiring regulations—it will be the 18th—come into force in January next year. They will raise standards markedly and introduce new and more complex technical requirements to ensure safety. Regulation will ensure that electricians are properly qualified to meet those higher standards and assist with training.

I join many organisations in the sector in calling on the Scottish Government to not delay and to use its powers to impose protection of title for electricians. There is a clear case for that. Scotland can lead the way on the issue in the UK and, in doing so, help to ensure that people in Scotland are kept safe and skilled workers are properly recognised for the vital job that they do.

Photo of Tom Arthur Tom Arthur Scottish National Party

I congratulate Jamie Halcro Johnston on securing this important debate. My sentiments are similar to those of my colleague

Clare Adamson. I am absolutely behind the sentiments on the motivation for regulation and I hope that the debate will contribute to work towards a consensus on the best model. I absolutely agree with Alexander Burnett that that has to be developed with industry so that we ensure that, while no corners are cut and every aspect of health and safety is given proper attention and enforced, we find the most efficient method, particularly for the many electricians in small businesses and those who are self-employed.

Photo of Monica Lennon Monica Lennon Labour

I hope that the member will indulge me, as my intervention is meant in the best possible spirit. I am quite surprised to hear the arguments about bureaucracy and concerns about regulation. Traditionally, we would get those from members on the Tory benches. Is there a bit of role reversal going on, Mr—[

Interruption

.] I have forgotten his name. Sorry. It is Tom Arthur.

The Deputy Presiding Officer:

I was about to help you, but you gracefully recalled it at the right moment.

Photo of Tom Arthur Tom Arthur Scottish National Party

I assure the member that there is absolutely no role reversal. I am simply stating, as my colleague Clare Adamson did, that we must ensure that we get the best possible method and model. I completely agree with the principles that have been set out, which are long overdue. I will come to why I think that in a moment. I want to be absolutely clear that we need to find the best possible method, but that cannot come at the price of compromise with regard to the robustness and integrity that are required to inspire confidence among consumers. I hope that that clears up any misunderstanding that Monica Lennon may have had on the matter.

I should declare in interest. I have had opportunities to engage in conversations with SELECT over a number of years and I am looking forward to meeting it again next month. I also declare an interest as the son of an electrician. My father started his career as an electrician in the late 1960s before going on to become an electrical engineer and then an operational manager. It was a very different era for health and safety back in the 1960s. Being the solitary operator on a cherry picker while working on district lighting in high winds is not necessarily something that would be tolerated today. However, from a very young age I learned from my father to have a great respect for and understanding of electricity and the dangers that it presents. I was always shocked when I engaged with friends or colleagues who were not aware of how dangerous it can be.

Mr Burnett’s point about the increasing proliferation of electrical goods was well made, and Jamie Halcro Johnston also made a key point about electrical goods being more regulated than electrical installations.

I turn to some other key points that are highlighted in the motion. We already have more than 100 regulated professions. Members of the public and consumers have a clear understanding of the dangers that are posed by gas and they would not want their property or premises to be the subject of work that was carried out by someone who was not a regulated gas engineer. That is quite understandable. On the point that our aims and objectives should be not just about the regulation of the profession but about inspiring greater consumer confidence and understanding, I, too, was shocked to see the statistics and to read that the overwhelming majority of people would not be able to discern whether someone was a qualified electrical installer.

I will give an example from my experience. A decade ago, my parents had a new bathroom installed, and the work that the electrician carried out was absolutely appalling. It was not just a case of cables not being tidily ordered; the cable to the shower, which is one of the highest-drawing appliances in the house, was completely the wrong type, which posed a grave fire hazard. Fortunately, my father was able to identify that and go through the installer like a dose of salts, but not every household has that opportunity.

The publication that SELECT has produced contains many photos that illustrate some appalling installations that have been carried out throughout Scotland. That is a clear and grave concern.

I am conscious that I have gone over time and I do not want to try your patience, Presiding Officer; I will conclude. I welcome the debate and I am glad that Jamie Halcro Johnston brought it forward. Although it is an area that we have to consider carefully, I am fully supportive of the principles and motivations behind the motion. I look forward to hearing what the minister has to say in closing.

The Deputy Presiding Officer:

Thank you, Mr Arthur. I have to say that I am quite relaxed today, so you were not really trying my patience at all—a rare moment.

Photo of Neil Findlay Neil Findlay Labour

Is this the new you, Presiding Officer? We will see how long that lasts.

The Deputy Presiding Officer:

It has just ended. [

Laughter

.]

Photo of Neil Findlay Neil Findlay Labour

I declare an interest as a member of Unite the union. A few years—or it might have been just a few months—after I entered Parliament, I campaigned extensively against the proposals of the big electrical companies that were trying to rip up national agreements for electricians and other trades such as ventilation engineers. Those companies were attempting to deskill the role of an electrician; they wanted to bring in new grades, which would have downgraded that role. I worked extensively with Unite the union, SELECT and rank and file members of Unite who were working on building sites across the UK on an effective UK-wide campaign that defeated the proposals that large and powerful construction companies had brought forward. It was a good example of parliamentary and extraparliamentary campaigning delivering success. The big companies were sent off to think again with their tails between their legs—the same big companies that were behind the blacklisting scandal that targeted health and safety reps on building sites.

I am a bricklayer to trade. Bricklayers are of course the cream of the construction industry, but we always support the other trades in the sector, because each trade relies on the others—that is part of the ethos of the team working in construction.

Electricians are a very important trade. If someone hammers a nail in the wrong way or lays a brick upside down, they generally will not kill or injure anyone or cause a fire or electrical shock, but poor wiring, insulation or earthing can do those things. That is the huge difference. Indeed, I know that an electrician was recently caused harm by a shock in this building, which should be of concern to us.

The proposal in Mr Halcro Johnston’s excellent motion is absolutely sensible. It suggests a normal way forward. The question that we should be asking is, “Why have we not done this before?”, because this is about safety, consumer protection, building standards and professional regulation and protection of title. Others have mentioned the remarkable list of 100 other trades or professions, including art therapists, taxi drivers and street sweepers, that are all licensed in some way while electricians are not—it just does not add up.

There is not a political point to be made on this—not at all. What is suggested is a practical and sensible step that fits in with the preventative agenda that Governments are supposed to be all about. There is nothing to stop us doing it here. It is not anybody else’s responsibility—it is not the responsibility of the UK Government, the council or somebody in Wales, or whoever is on the usual list. We can do it here, so we should act.

It is about protecting people and consumers, our buildings and the integrity of the trades. I have to say that the best way for safety to become the default position in the industry is for there to be regulation, protection of title and trade union collective agreements, and for that to become the norm in the industry. Unionised workplaces are safer workplaces. Workplaces where there is more direct employment are safer workplaces. We have seen what deregulation and the overreliance on subcontracted labour brings—more deaths and more injury in the workplace.

Let us bring forward the necessary legislation. I think that it would have widespread community support, industry support and trade union support and I hope that it would have the support of the majority in the Parliament.

Photo of Jamie Hepburn Jamie Hepburn Scottish National Party

I join others in thanking Jamie Halcro Johnston for securing what I recognise is an important debate. It is right that we bring this issue to the chamber, and we should all welcome the fact that we are able to contribute to this important matter.

Everyone in the chamber and most people in Scotland will have had to hire someone to carry out electrical work, and I think that we will all agree that we should be able to so with confidence that we are not going to be put at risk. At the outset, it is important to re-emphasise Alexander Burnett’s point about the quality of the training provision in our modern apprenticeship scheme, which has come about as a result of industry involvement, colleges and the Scottish joint industry board for the electrical contracting industry. We should therefore recognise that the electricians out there come, in the main, from a background of high-quality professional training.

However, we have heard both today and previously of concerns that sometimes people can be put in danger as a result of electrical shocks or fire, simply because anyone can call themselves an electrician without having the relevant qualifications or competence. Those concerns are serious, and they have to be considered fully and acted on where necessary.

Mr Halcro Johnston has said that he might be considering introducing legislation on this issue, but I should make it clear at the outset of my speech that I am open minded on the matter and have made no clear or firm decision on the best way forward. I have not ruled anything out. I came into this post in June, and I was very happy to meet SELECT a matter of weeks later to discuss this very issue. It has made a serious proposal about the protection of title, and we will give that full and proper consideration in the process that we are taking forward and which I will lay out in a few moments’ time.

Photo of Neil Findlay Neil Findlay Labour

Can the minister advise us of his reservations or tell us why he might not support such a move?

Photo of Jamie Hepburn Jamie Hepburn Scottish National Party

I will come to that, but I suppose that it comes back to a point that Tom Arthur made. There is perhaps a misunderstanding that there is some concern about overregulation; the concern here is about the need to look at this matter fully and thoroughly and ensure that all interested parties are involved in the process so that any action that we take is correct and proportionate. That is why we have engaged with the industry. SELECT has made certain calls, but alternative views have been set out by others working in the industry, so we need to bring everyone together so that we can take things forward in a full and thorough way. Indeed, when he was Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Jobs and Fair Work, Keith Brown established a Scottish Government electricians working group to bring together industry and representatives from Unite, those with responsibility for trading standards and so on so that the matter could be discussed fully and thoroughly.

Photo of Jamie Hepburn Jamie Hepburn Scottish National Party

I will use today’s debate as an ideal opportunity to update Parliament on the group’s discussions, but before I do so, I will give way to Mr Burnett.

Photo of Alexander Burnett Alexander Burnett Conservative

As the minister’s colleague Tom Arthur has pointed out, consideration of this matter has long been overdue. Can the minister indicate a timescale for when he would like that conversation to happen?

Photo of Jamie Hepburn Jamie Hepburn Scottish National Party

Again, I hear the idea that action on this issue is long overdue. Because protection of title has not been put in place before now, it could be argued that it is long overdue. However, I go back to the point that the working group was established less than a year ago and it has been meeting and undertaking discussions, I took on this role in June and met SELECT only a few weeks later and we are having this debate today. The idea that we are resting on our laurels and that the issue has been kicking around and punted into the long grass cannot be held to be true. I make very clear that I think that it is a serious matter and we are not trying to hold anything up. I emphasise again that it is important to engage fully and thoroughly in considering what the implications of any proposition might be and what the best way forward is. I can see that Mr Halcro Johnston is itching to intervene, so I will pre-empt that and give way.

The Deputy Presiding Officer:

I saw that too; he was preparing himself.

Photo of Jamie Halcro Johnston Jamie Halcro Johnston Conservative

I am grateful that the minister was ahead of me on that. Does he support the principle of protection of title in this case?

Photo of Jamie Hepburn Jamie Hepburn Scottish National Party

I hope that it has been clear that I am not unsympathetic to the concept. There is merit in looking at that proposition and considering it thoroughly. I have already said that it is very firmly on the table and I am happy to meet any member who wants to advance that proposition. Let me say this as gently as I can: I have had two written questions from Mr Halcro Johnston on the matter and he lodged the motion on it that we are debating today; Mr Findlay has lodged a motion on the matter before Parliament; and I have had letters from two elected representatives. I have not been inundated with members coming to talk about the issue. I can see that that is causing some disconcertion. The reason why I made that point, which I hope will be accepted, is that I am a pretty approachable guy and, if people want to come and speak to me about the issue, I am happy for them to do so. My door is open and, having opened the door, I will give way to Mr Findlay, who will, I am sure, be happy to walk through.

Photo of Neil Findlay Neil Findlay Labour

I was not aware that the way government works is by weight of emails and mailbag responses to ministers’ parliamentary questions. I could put down 500 parliamentary questions tomorrow, but that shouldnae be how we decide whether we do things that are right or wrong. The point that the minister makes is, frankly, nonsense.

Photo of Jamie Hepburn Jamie Hepburn Scottish National Party

I was not trying to make a nonsensical point; I was trying to make the point that I have not had an overwhelming sense of people coming forward with this as a priority issue. If it is, my door is open and I am willing to consider it and discuss it with people. Mr Findlay would be very welcome to come and speak to me about it.

The Deputy Presiding Officer:

You did say that you had an open door.

Photo of Jamie Halcro Johnston Jamie Halcro Johnston Conservative

The minister has made a rod for his own back. Obviously, both Neil Findlay and I have lodged motions on the matter, but the minister and his predecessor in the role have had representations about it from industry bodies. It is not just a question of what MSPs have been doing; there has been contact about the matter from representatives of the industry for a long time.

Photo of Jamie Hepburn Jamie Hepburn Scottish National Party

That is right, and the point is that industry is not speaking with one voice. We know, for example, that the National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting takes a different view. The point that I am trying to make is that when different views are expressed it is incumbent on the Government to sit down, hear those different voices and work out the best way through. That is the only point that I am making and if members of this Parliament want to be part of that process, the door is open.

We have probably got a little sidetracked on the subject of me opening the door, which remains open. I had hoped to update Parliament a little more about where the working group has got to, but let me just say that the group is in place, it is continuing to discuss the matter, there is no delay, work continues and we will come back with a final proposition. It will then be for Parliament to determine whether it agrees with that. Mr Halcro Johnston has suggested that he may introduce legislation, which it is his prerogative to do, as it is for any member of the Parliament. I will be happy to consider it, if he determines that it is necessary to do that. I take the issue seriously and I am actively exploring it with an open mind.

13:29 Meeting suspended.

14:30 On resuming—