Knife Crime

– in the Scottish Parliament at 5:03 pm on 5 October 2006.

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Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour 5:03, 5 October 2006

The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S2M-4708, in the name of Alex Johnstone, on knife crime education. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament encourages all efforts to reduce knife crime; notes that educational programmes and courses on the dangers of carrying a knife have been shown to have been successful in the past, and congratulates Mr Mark Davies from Angus on using his experiences as a door supervisor and martial artist to put together a new course which educates our young people on the dangers and possible consequences of carrying a knife.

Photo of Alex Johnstone Alex Johnstone Conservative 5:08, 5 October 2006

With the Presiding Officer's indulgence, I will speak from a seated position. The fact that I suffered a recurrence of a bad back just 10 minutes before I came to the chamber this afternoon has reminded me how painful the condition can be, and I thank everyone who has expressed their sympathy over the past couple of hours. The pain of a bad back is over in a few days, but the pain and injury that are caused by knife attacks often take much longer to recover from. Indeed, sometimes the injury is fatal.

I do not usually speak on justice issues in the Parliament, so it is perhaps slightly out of character for me to initiate a debate on knife crime education. However, given that I want to talk about why it should be everyone's responsibility to try to deal with the problems of knife crime, it is appropriate that a new face and a new voice should be raising the issue.

Whether one believes knife crime is a growing problem depends to some extent on one's experience and to a larger extent on where one comes from. I have heard people from the south-west of Scotland—from Glasgow, in particular—say that knife crime is no longer the growing problem that it has been because of successful initiatives to tackle it, but people from other parts of Scotland are beginning to deliver anecdotal evidence that there is a growing problem in areas where knife crime has not been a problem before.

Research that was done for a newspaper article some 10 weeks ago—it is slightly out of date—states that the statistics on knife crime are truly frightening. Last year, there were 1,301 knife attacks in Strathclyde alone, 1,100 of which were in a public place and involved non-domestic knives. Scotland has the third highest rate of stabbings anywhere in Europe, with Glasgow as a significant stand out. In the past 10 years, 554 people have died as a result of attacks involving a sharp object. That is roughly one killing a week.

During the summer recess, I found myself being approached by an Angus man: Mark Davies of Arbroath. He has considerable experience in the field. Not only is he a martial artist of some renown and the owner of a martial arts centre in Arbroath from which he operates outreach events in Dundee and Montrose, he is an international martial arts instructor and examiner, an edged weapons instructor and a close combat instructor with the United Kingdom special forces.

Mark Davies's experience with knives has given him some strong opinions, but he wanted to become involved in knife crime education not as a result of his professional background but when his nine-year-old son came back from school expressing his concerns about knife issues and the fact that another nine-year-old had threatened a friend of his with a knife. We should all be aware that the problem exists.

The programme that Mark Davies has proposed is—let us be clear—not a self-defence programme. It is not an attempt to encourage people to fight back. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. Mark wants to ensure that young people understand the real damage that edged weapons can do. I use the phrase edged weapons deliberately because, as Mark Davies states clearly in his programme, some of the most dangerous weapons that are carried are screwdrivers and other domestic implements that are likely to cause serious injury but are not suspicious unless they are in the hands of people who are suspicious.

We are well aware that the Scottish Executive has worked hard to try to cut knife crime. Efforts have been made to increase the level of deterrence. I and, I am sure, many of my Conservative colleagues, along with members in other parties, will support the Executive whenever it makes efforts to discourage knife crime through increased sentencing and better attempts to control knives.

The police have conducted a number of knife amnesties. Another successful one took place this year, but the problem is not with the kind of people who take advantage of knife amnesties. Although amnesties undoubtedly take dangerous weapons out of society and mean that they will not be available in future for those who are likely to cause damage with them, the truth is that the people who are likely to cause the damage are the ones who will not hand the weapons in.

When it comes to young people, it is clear—Mark Davies has made it clear to me and others in the Parliament whom he has met—that those who seek to do criminal damage with knives are in a small minority. Sadly, the majority—perhaps a significant majority—of those who carry knives do so because they believe that it is a method of self-defence. They believe that they are threatened and decide to carry edged weapons to reduce the risk to themselves. Unfortunately, statistics and anecdotal evidence indicate that somebody who chooses to carry an edged weapon for that reason is more likely, rather than less likely, to be a victim of attack.

As I said at the beginning, it is important that we all claim the prevention and reduction of knife crime as our own. It is up to all of us as politicians to highlight the issues and to work against the problem. It is up to all parents to ensure that their children are neither carrying knives nor in fear of becoming victims of knife crime. It is up to the people in society who have genuine experience of the use of knives—perhaps they are few in number—to take the opportunities, when they arise, to go out and tell young people that it is not like it is in the movies: when someone pulls a knife and stabs someone else, they do serious damage not only to the victim but to themselves. Once they have crossed the line and become a perpetrator of knife crime, they will never be able to step back over it.

I take pleasure in speaking to the motion:

"That the Parliament encourages all efforts to reduce knife crime; notes that educational programmes and courses on the dangers of carrying a knife have been shown to have been successful in the past, and congratulates Mr Mark Davies from Angus on using his experiences as a door supervisor and martial artist to put together a new course which educates our young people on the dangers and possible consequences of carrying a knife."

We all need to learn more about the subject. The more people who are willing to do what Mark Davies has done in using his expertise, the more likely it is that we can progress towards an end to this scourge.

Photo of Richard Baker Richard Baker Labour 5:16, 5 October 2006

I congratulate Alex Johnstone on securing the debate. I am glad to hear that his sedentary position is down to a bad back, not to practising martial arts with Mr Davies. I am pleased that we are debating such an important subject and I am pleased that the motion received cross-party support. The motion is important because it highlights the need to take a range of measures to tackle the worrying culture of knife crime.

As members will be aware, the problem is not confined to certain parts of Scotland. Historically, Glasgow has had particular problems with knife crime—no doubt Charlie Gordon will refer to that—but between January 2000 and June 2005, Grampian police recorded 428 incidents when children aged between eight and 15 were charged with possession of an offensive weapon. That is a particularly worrying statistic, as it indicates that the problem sometimes involves surprisingly young people. Education on the dangers of possessing knives is clearly crucial—although that is not to say that the other efforts to reduce knife crime are not equally important. The Executive has taken a strong lead in ensuring that more severe penalties are in place for those who are convicted of carrying knives and in giving the police new resources and powers to help them identify people who carry knives.

Stricter regulation of sales and measures to ban sales to under-16s have proved popular with people who have expressed concern about the issue to me. More than 400 people signed a petition, which I organised, calling for just such measures. It was handed to the minister last summer.

Others have followed the Executive's lead. For example, retailers have chosen to withdraw certain knives from sale. That kind of action is important. The Government alone cannot end the knife culture: that requires action throughout Scottish society and, as Alex Johnstone said, education must be an essential part of that. Mark Davies's briefing to members yesterday about how he educates young people on knife crime, showing them the dangers of carrying a knife, was extremely informative and it showed just what a difference education can make. Mark has certainly found that it has made a real difference to many of the young people whom he has been educating.

I hope that the Executive will build on its excellent work on this issue by encouraging more education campaigns to discourage young people from carrying knives, as well as by providing education beyond schools for the whole the community. I hope that schools and education authorities will recognise the great value of education programmes of the kind Mr Davies has pioneered and that they will pave the way for more such initiatives so that we finally achieve the reduction in knife crime that we all want.

Photo of Kenny MacAskill Kenny MacAskill Scottish National Party 5:19, 5 October 2006

Whether he was speaking from a sedentary position or not, Alex Johnstone is to be congratulated not simply on securing this debate but on giving a forceful exposition of the problems that arise from the carrying of knives, and of the tragedies that afflict not only those who suffer at the hands of the perpetrators of offences but the families whose lives are ruined. The perpetrators of the offences also face ruin, as Alex Johnstone pointed out.

It is useful that the debate has been secured by somebody who is not one of the usual suspects—either on account of his constituency or on account of speaking about his justice portfolio. For too long, many of us have lived under the delusion that knife crime is a west of Scotland phenomenon that grew up with the razor gangs and has never quite been shaken off. It is a problem that afflicts all Scotland. Gone are the days when people in the city of Edinburgh could look rather disparagingly along the M8 and say that knife crime is their problem, not ours. In recent weeks, tragedies in the city of Edinburgh have revealed the problems that Alex Johnstone and Mr Davies described.

Not only the central belt is affected. As Alex Johnstone and Richard Baker said, there is an all-Scotland culture in which people—whether out of bravado or out of feeling that they need to defend themselves—feel that they have to carry a knife. Not only the cities and towns of the central belt are affected: rural areas are affected too. Knife offences now take place in Highland idylls where we thought such crimes would not be perpetrated, and where we thought people were safe to leave their doors unlocked and to walk the streets. We have to address that.

This Parliament has shown consensus in fully supporting the efforts of the minister and the Executive to stamp out knife crime, which is a crime problem and a culture problem. As Alex Johnstone said, it affects us all. The Parliament has taken appropriate steps and the minister is to be congratulated on giving a clear and vociferous lead. We need strict enforcement by the police, and that is clearly happening: there is the detection of weapons using metal detectors, the work of the violence reduction unit, and the progress that has been made by Detective Chief Superintendent Carnochan and others.

There has to be strict implementation by our sheriffs. This legislature is entitled to expect our sheriffs to show no mercy. It should be certain, unless there are exceptional circumstances, that if a person carries a knife they will go to jail—and that if they use a knife or weapon it is likely they will go to jail for a very long time. We expect our sheriffs to get that message and to implement it.

This is a cultural problem, and education will be required. I was able only to read the handout that followed Mark Davies's lecture, but Alex Johnstone has reiterated the points today. A section of our youth are used to seeing how video games show the consequences of actions—if a knife is stuck in, it just comes out again and there is no real problem for the victim. That is not what happens. We have to make it clear that there will be real injuries and that people will suffer.

All society—not just politicians, policemen and sheriffs—has to deal with this problem. People have to report when others are carrying knives. Parents have to tell their children that it is simply unacceptable to carry knives. Neighbours have to be prepared to phone the authorities. As has been said in the chamber, that can be difficult in some areas, but the authorities can deal with reports on an anonymous and confidential basis.

We have a major cultural problem. Strict enforcement is required, but education is required too. As Alex Johnstone correctly said, action from us all is required.

Photo of Shiona Baird Shiona Baird Green 5:24, 5 October 2006

Alex Johnstone is to be thanked for securing such an interesting debate. It is interesting more for what lies behind the motion than for the rather scary images that knife crime represents.

I listened to Mr Davies's briefing yesterday and heard some of his alarming stories about youngsters he has found with knives. He showed and described some of the weapons; the picture he painted was of a society that no one should tolerate. Everything that Mr Davies is saying about the carriers and users of these so-destructive weapons indicates a waste—not only the waste that is evident in the paucity of those young people's ambition, but the waste for the community as a whole. Useful, contributing and able youngsters are wasting the one life that they have. That is not even to address the waste of police resources in tackling knife crime or the huge cost of people being in the prison system.

Prevention through education has to be the way forward. Mr Davies rightly calls his programme, "Reducing a culture of violence through education." He is in good company: the United Nations international decade for a culture of peace programme states:

"For peace and non-violence to prevail we need to foster a culture of peace through education."

We are in the middle of that decade for a culture of peace.

The cutting edge programme goes beyond the graphic illustrations of just what happens when knives are carried and used and shows the impact on the families of victims and the wider community. It gets to the fundamentals behind the perceived need to carry weapons by addressing issues of self-esteem, discipline and self-control.

The education for peace programme is about teaching people of all ages how to resolve conflict non-violently. As Mr Davies points out, too often violence erupts so quickly because people's first response is to lash out. It concerns me that such intolerance is portrayed ever more frequently on television, with girls often being portrayed as aggressors, as if to suggest that by emulating the men they are somehow achieving greater equality. However, that is another issue.

Many people believe that violence is an integral part of human nature and that violence at home and abroad is inevitable—hence, the concept of zero tolerance, which is used in schools in the United States and which is being advocated here. It involves installing metal detectors, conducting personal searches and providing high-level security around schools.

Education for peace, however, is—like Mr Davies's programme—based on the more optimistic view of human nature that building respect and strong secure relationships with and among children achieves a great deal more long-term success.

It is disappointing that Mr Davies is having the same struggle that I am having with the education departments of some local authorities, which are unwilling to take on board differing approaches. I have been unable to circulate to teachers the outlined programme of education for peace, because it could be seen to be verging on the party-political and circulating the material might set a precedent.

I find it worrying that we as a society are willing to tolerate the level of violence and fear of violence, which is rising in our schools and communities, but not to explore every avenue to address and reduce it.

Photo of Charlie Gordon Charlie Gordon Labour 5:28, 5 October 2006

I congratulate Alex Johnstone on securing the debate. I was pleased to sign his motion and I am pleased about the cross-party support for it. I congratulate him also on the fascinating seminar that he arranged with Mr Davies yesterday. I also commiserate with him about his back pain. I am a fellow sufferer, sporadically.

Alex Johnstone was quite right to draw attention to Glasgow's reputation. In the past 20 years in which I have been in public life I have had the privilege of contributing in some measure to the regeneration of my beloved home town of Glasgow, but I have to admit that when it comes to knife crime my city has a worldwide reputation that we do not want for it.

I have been campaigning on knife crime for just over a year, since I took up the issue in the Cathcart by-election. I congratulate the Scottish Executive on the fact that all the measures that I proposed in the context of that campaign are in the course of being implemented, such as the knife amnesty, the issuing to police of metal detectors, stiffer sentences on conviction for use of knives, more stringent bail conditions or refusal of bail, and the proposed licensing of the sale of knives. I have other views on sentencing that are well known to members, but they are not for this debate. Suffice it to say that I am delighted that the Executive has left the door open. In the event that the package that is being implemented does not have sufficient impact, it will consider further measures.

However, we are not talking principally about enforcement in this debate, but about education on knife crime. Why do we need education on knife crime? I will give one illustration. A principal teacher of guidance in a top-performing state school in a leafy suburb of Glasgow told me recently that she had asked a senior class whether it was okay to carry a knife. The majority replied, "Yes, because it makes you feel safer." In the main, those were middle-class boys and girls from professional-class families. That indicates to me that there is among our young people a deep-rooted and broad cultural problem about knifes that has to be addressed.

It may be that Mr Davies's programme has a contribution to make in our proffered solutions, but we are perhaps at only the early stages of the debate. I fully accept that the Scottish Executive Education Department, as well as the Justice Department, may have to apply its shoulder to the wheel in the future. However, let us talk about the three Es, which could be the start of another avenue of debate. Let those three Es be enforcement, education and—the third that I would add—encouragement.

Photo of Cathy Jamieson Cathy Jamieson Labour 5:31, 5 October 2006

I should start by saying that I am probably one of the usual suspects who were referred to earlier, because the issue is one that I have followed for some time as a minister. I add my congratulations to Alex Johnstone on securing the debate and enabling us to keep this important issue on the agenda.

For those who do not know—some in the chamber might already be aware—I am a former martial arts practitioner. Indeed, that is how I met my husband. We used to be involved in demonstrating self-defence and other things, and my son has followed us in that interest. People outside martial arts found it odd that I could be involved in such a sport while also being involved in delivering peace education through an organisation called the Woodcraft Folk. For those of us who were involved in martial arts, there was no contradiction whatsoever. Part of the discipline and ethos was to ensure that people were not required to resolve problems violently. Those who are involved in martial arts have a particular responsibility to ensure that there is no glamorisation of violence. It is a powerful and productive sport for young people to be involved in, but it should not glamorise violence or weaponry. That is why I am particularly interested to have heard about the presentation by Mr Davies. Unfortunately, I could not attend, although I have seen information about it.

Alex Johnstone said that being involved in knife crime is not like being in the movies. I saw for myself some very graphic photographs of victims of knife crime when I attended events with Dr Rudi Crawford, an accident and emergency consultant in Glasgow who is at the front line in dealing with the problems.

I recently visited Kilwinning academy to launch an educational DVD with the violence reduction unit and a community policeman who is now associated with the school as the campus policeman. The young people there looked at the images and saw the impact of knife crime. They heard directly from other young people who had been involved in knife crime about the damaging effects, both physical and mental, not just on themselves but on their families and the wider community.

I welcome anything that assists us in tackling the problems associated with knife crime, keeping the issue on the agenda and ensuring that we strike the balance between education, enforcement and—to acknowledge Charlie Gordon's comment—encouraging young people to do other things.

All the members who have spoken recognised that the Executive has taken the issue seriously. We have listened to the police, people in the health services who have to deal with the consequences of knife crime, youth workers, people who work with young people and young people themselves. I suppose that one of the most difficult tasks is trying to get across to young people that carrying a knife will not make them safer but will make them more likely to become a victim of crime. We must redouble our efforts to get that message across. I say to young people that the minute that they decide to carry a weapon, they have already decided that they may use it at some stage—such circumstances are dangerous.

Members have pointed out that knife crime is not an issue only for Glasgow or the west of Scotland. However, I strongly support the efforts that Charlie Gordon has made. He recognises that Glasgow has a reputation that it is not proud of and that it wants to do something about. He and his colleagues in Glasgow want to tackle the problem, but we should also recognise the work that Richard Baker has done and the work that Kenny MacAskill and other members have referred to, such as the work in the north-east that Alex Johnstone mentioned. Perhaps communities are experiencing knife crime in a way that they have not in the past. We do not want such crime to spread throughout Scotland.

I am pleased that our recorded crime figures show that, overall, violent crime fell last year to its lowest level since devolution, but we know that we have much more to do, which is why we are strengthening the law. We are working with the police on enforcement and are addressing the underlying issues through educational initiatives. There is, of course, more to come in the Custodial Sentences and Weapons (Scotland) Bill, which will ban the general sale of swords and require sword and knife sellers to have licences. There will be strong enforcement of that legislation; powers of entry and seizure will exist.

People are aware of the knife amnesty, the Lord Advocate's new guidelines and the additional resources that we have given the police so that they can use hand-held metal detectors, which can deter people from carrying knives in pubs, clubs or other places in which they might be tempted to carry them. The use of such detectors signals to people that they are much more likely to be caught carrying a knife and held in custody. They are also much more likely to be subject to a stiffer sentence as a result of what the Executive has done.

I heard what Kenny MacAskill and Charlie Gordon said about sentencing. Of course, there will be further debates about sentencing, but it is important to recognise that we want to ensure that there is a degree of consistency in sentencing and that the public understand the sentencing process. That is why we asked the Sentencing Commission for Scotland to produce work for us, and I am currently considering its report.

We must also continue our educational efforts. We are using the save face posters, for example, which are a visual reminder of the consequences of carrying knives, and the "Knife City" DVD. In addition, schools in Glasgow and elsewhere have benefited from drama projects that have explored issues relating to the carrying of knives and the consequences of doing so. It is important that the Parliament continues to support such efforts.

The work of the Strathclyde police violence reduction unit has been extended throughout Scotland. That work represents an opportunity to tackle such problems, keep them in the public domain and make it clear that carrying knives is not cool or clever, but can lead to dire consequences. We want to encourage young people to become involved in constructive activities and to have the self-confidence to stand up to pressures to become involved in violent activities. We want them to do other things.

I appreciate the opportunity that I have been given in this debate to continue to raise the issue of knife crime, and I thank Alex Johnstone and all the other members who have spoken. I also appreciate the efforts of all the partners who are working at the front line to tackle the problems that exist, to continue to raise awareness and to ensure that our streets are safer. If we continue to work together on a cross-party basis and bring all our resources and efforts to bear, we can continue to reduce violent crime and make our communities safer places in which to live.

Meeting closed at 17:39.