Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 – in the Scottish Parliament at 4:00 pm on 2 June 2005.
Trish Godman
Labour
4:00,
2 June 2005
Group 8 concerns the offence of paying for sexual services of a child. Amendment 48, in the name of Kenny MacAskill, is grouped with amendments 50 and 51.
Stewart Stevenson
Scottish National Party
In view of the time, I will be very brief. Amendment 48 aims to catch someone who is seeking to buy the sexual services of a child for someone else and to ensure that, notwithstanding the fact that it may be possible to catch them elsewhere in the legal code, the offences prescribed in the bill are applicable to a third person who buys sexual services on behalf of someone else. The amendment is a simple, logical extension of the protections that the bill provides.
I move amendment 48.
Margaret Mitchell
Conservative
We will support the Law Society-inspired Amendment in Kenny MacAskill's name, which covers a potential loophole in the bill by including a reference to a third party.
My amendments 50 and 51 seek to ensure consistency in the approach in Scots law to the offence of having sex with a child under the age of
13. At present, unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl of that age can attract a maximum sentence of life imprisonment under section 5 of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995. However, under section 8A of the bill, if payment or promise of payment is made in return for sexual intercourse with a child under 13 years of age, the maximum penalty is 14 years' imprisonment. The amendments seek to ensure that the offence in the bill carries a penalty as severe as the penalty for which the 1995 act provides.
Hugh Henry
Labour
First, I will address the Amendment in Kenny MacAskill's name, to which Stewart Stevenson spoke. I do not believe that the amendment is necessary. I argue that the behaviour that Kenny MacAskill is trying to catch in the amendment is already likely to be an offence. If a person is deliberately assisting another to purchase the sexual services of a child, that person could be charged with aiding and abetting or conspiracy to purchase the sexual services of a child. Alternatively, if the person is deliberately arranging for the child to become involved in the provision of sexual services, so as to provide those services to another, that person could be caught by the offence at section 8D of the bill, which concerns arranging or facilitating.
Secondly, I turn to the amendments in Margaret Mitchell's name. I am not convinced that it is sensible to add another level of penalties in the bill for offences relating to those aged under 13. I am aware that the equivalent Westminster legislation includes a life penalty in cases where the offence was committed against a child under 13, but there are important differences between the Westminster legislation and ours. Whereas Margaret Mitchell's amendment takes in all the offences relating to under-13s, the Westminster legislation takes a two-tier approach, so that a life penalty is available only in cases where the sexual services constitute certain aggravated behaviour relating to the penetration of the body of the child.
We have widened the reach of the bill so that a range of sexual services is covered. Although we agree that paying for sexual intercourse with an under-13 may justify a life sentence, I am not convinced that everything that is found to fall within the definition of sexual services would justify a life penalty. In any event, it is important to reassure members that, in cases where someone has sexual intercourse with a child under 13, whether or not payment has been made, it will often be more appropriate to take proceedings under another offence. Section 5 of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995, for example, makes provision for the offence of unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of 13 and provides a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. It will, of course, be for the Crown to decide in each case which offence the accused
Stewart Stevenson
Scottish National Party
4:15,
2 June 2005
It is worth saying that section 8D would have the effect that the Minister described should we agree to Amendment 52. At the moment, however, that section relates only to child prostitution and pornography and not to sexual services. Therefore, there are some technical complications with the sequencing and I am not clear that the penalties that would apply without the amendments would be as serious. Can the minister indicate his answer so that I do not take up too much time?
Hugh Henry
Labour
I am not sure about that—
Stewart Stevenson
Scottish National Party
On that basis, I will press Amendment 48.
Trish Godman
Labour
The question is, that Amendment 48 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Trish Godman
Labour
There will be a Division.
Division number 7
For: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Baird, Shiona, Ballance, Chris, Ballard, Mark, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Canavan, Dennis, Crawford, Bruce, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Fergusson, Alex, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Gibson, Rob, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Grahame, Christine, Harper, Robin, Harvie, Patrick, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Johnstone, Alex, Leckie, Carolyn, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Marwick, Tricia, Mather, Jim, Matheson, Michael, McFee, Mr Bruce, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Morgan, Alasdair, Neil, Alex, Robison, Shona, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, Eleanor, Stevenson, Stewart, Sturgeon, Nicola, Tosh, Murray, White, Ms Sandra
Against: Alexander, Ms Wendy, Arbuckle, Mr Andrew, Baillie, Jackie, Baker, Richard, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Curran, Ms Margaret, Eadie, Helen, Ferguson, Patricia, Finnie, Ross, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Gorrie, Donald, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, May, Christine, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McConnell, Mr Jack, McMahon, Michael, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robson, Euan, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan
Trish Godman
Labour
The question is, that Amendment 12 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Trish Godman
Labour
There will be a Division.
Division number 8
For: Aitken, Bill, Alexander, Ms Wendy, Arbuckle, Mr Andrew, Baillie, Jackie, Baird, Shiona, Baker, Richard, Ballance, Chris, Ballard, Mark, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Byrne, Ms Rosemary, Canavan, Dennis, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Eadie, Helen, Ferguson, Patricia, Fergusson, Alex, Finnie, Ross, Fraser, Murdo, Glen, Marlyn, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Gorrie, Donald, Harper, Robin, Harvie, Patrick, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Johnstone, Alex, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Leckie, Carolyn, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, May, Christine, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McConnell, Mr Jack, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robson, Euan, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, Eleanor, Scott, John, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Swinburne, John, Tosh, Murray, Turner, Dr Jean, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan
Against: Adam, Brian, Crawford, Bruce, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Gallie, Phil, Gibson, Rob, Gillon, Karen, Grahame, Christine, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Marwick, Tricia, Mather, Jim, Matheson, Michael, McFee, Mr Bruce, Morgan, Alasdair, Neil, Alex, Robison, Shona, Stevenson, Stewart, White, Ms Sandra
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
