Fire (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 – in the Scottish Parliament at 2:45 pm on 23 February 2005.
George Reid
None
2:45,
23 February 2005
Group 6 is on the duties of employers to employees in relation to fire safety. Amendment 29, in the name of Colin Fox, is grouped with amendment 33.
Colin Fox
SSP
I am glad that there has been consensus so far in the debate—I hope that it continues.
Amendment 29 seeks to draw on recent European health and safety legislation, which has repeatedly and rigorously tested the criterion that measures should be "reasonably practicable" and preferred instead to apply a much stiffer test on health and safety matters with regard to the duties of employers to their employees. European Union directives and regulations make it clear that, for example, with control of or handling of substances that are hazardous to health, or in respect of manual handling practices, a risk assessment must be carried out and a calculation or computation made of the perceived dangers therein. The legislation makes it clear that, after a health and safety calculation has been made, it is insufficient for precautions to be ruled out on the ground of cost as measured against low risk. The European directives overrule the economic-test approach in favour of a far higher standard of safety assessment.
Amendment 29 would delete the discredited phrase "reasonably practicable" from the bill. Mr Snedden, the head of the fire services Division of the Justice Department was, in a letter of 10 February to the Justice 2 Committee, at pains to explain the terms of the debate at greater length. He pointed out that only one instance of the phrase "reasonably practicable" remains in the bill,
"Scottish Ministers are required to act compatibly with ECHR when making regulations that impose such requirements or prohibitions."
However, in considering what is reasonably practicable, the expense of safety measures is balanced against the magnitude of the risk.
Amendment 29 is necessary to ensure that the bill is EU compliant and that employers provide their employees with the higher standard of health and safety cover. Amendment 33 is consequential on amendment 29.
I move amendment 29.
Hugh Henry
Labour
I note Colin Fox's point about achieving consensus, which can often be helpful. In the spirit of consensus, perhaps he will reflect on the fact that his suggestion received no support from members at stage 2.
Colin Fox says that the concept of being reasonable is discredited—I do not know what that says about Colin Fox's thinking process, but the word "reasonably" is important in the bill. Mr Fox questions whether the bill is EU compliant but, as members know, we could not propose legislation that was not compliant. We have met our obligations. The bill is not, as Colin Fox suggests, in contradiction of any European legislation. I have put on the record a number of times, and I will do so again today, that we are content that the approach that is adopted in the bill will correctly implement the high standards that are placed on employers in respect of workers' health and safety, as set out in the EU framework directive. I repeat that the bill is within the Parliament's legislative competence.
Part 3 reflects the duty that is placed on employers in relation to other aspects of health and safety at work in the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, which the United Kingdom regards as the legislation that implements the 1989 European Council directive in that regard.
There are important reasons why Amendment 29 should not be agreed to. The Executive does not have difficulty with the proposition that employers should be required to apply the strictest possible standards to the safety of their employees in this area. The United Kingdom's record on health and safety at work is among the best in Europe, but amendment 29 goes too far in that it would impose an unfair burden on employers. If the amendment were agreed to, employers would be required to take measures where it was practical to do so, but with no assessment of whether those measures were reasonable in the circumstances. If employers were unable to conduct some sort of balancing exercises against countervailing circumstances,
Colin Fox
SSP
It is my intention to press Amendment 29. The Minister says that he does not wish to place an unfair burden on employers. The Executive has never shown a tendency to put unfair burdens on employers—it has put very few burdens on them.
As the minister knows full well, the phrase "reasonably practicable" that he tries to trivialise has been tested repeatedly in European Union legislation and has failed those tests on economic grounds. All the other references to "reasonably practicable" in the bill as it was introduced have been omitted. If the minister is on the record as saying that he wants the highest standards to be protected, he is duty bound to support amendment 29.
George Reid
None
The question is, that Amendment 29 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
George Reid
None
There will be a Division.
Division number 1
For: Byrne, Ms Rosemary, Curran, Frances, Fox, Colin, Leckie, Carolyn, Sheridan, Tommy, Turner, Dr Jean
Against: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Alexander, Ms Wendy, Arbuckle, Mr Andrew, Baillie, Jackie, Baker, Richard, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Ms Margaret, Davidson, Mr David, Deacon, Susan, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Eadie, Helen, Fabiani, Linda, Ferguson, Patricia, Fergusson, Alex, Finnie, Ross, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Gibson, Rob, Glen, Marlyn, Godman, Trish, Gorrie, Donald, Grahame, Christine, Harper, Robin, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, John, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Johnstone, Alex, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lochhead, Richard, Lyon, George, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, Marwick, Tricia, Mather, Jim, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, May, Christine, McConnell, Mr Jack, McFee, Mr Bruce, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Monteith, Mr Brian, Morgan, Alasdair, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Neil, Alex, Oldfather, Irene, Peattie, Cathy, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robison, Shona, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mike, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stevenson, Stewart, Sturgeon, Nicola, Swinney, Mr John, Wallace, Mr Jim, White, Ms Sandra, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan
Abstentions: Baird, Shiona, Ballance, Chris, Harvie, Patrick, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scott, Eleanor
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
