Section 14 — Powers of Tribunal in relation to reference

Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 – in the Scottish Parliament at 4:15 pm on 1st April 2004.

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Amendment 48 moved—[Euan Robson.]

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The question is, that amendment 48 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

Division number 24

For: Baillie, Jackie, Baker, Richard, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Eadie, Helen, Ferguson, Patricia, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Gorrie, Donald, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McConnell, Mr Jack, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mike, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stone, Mr Jamie, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan
Against: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Baird, Shiona, Ballance, Chris, Ballard, Mark, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Byrne, Ms Rosemary, Canavan, Dennis, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Frances, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Fergusson, Alex, Fox, Colin, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Gibson, Rob, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Grahame, Christine, Harper, Robin, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Johnstone, Alex, Kane, Rosie, Leckie, Carolyn, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Martin, Campbell, Marwick, Tricia, Mather, Jim, Matheson, Michael, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, McFee, Mr Bruce, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Monteith, Mr Brian, Mundell, David, Neil, Alex, Robison, Shona, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, Eleanor, Scott, John, Smith, Iain, Stevenson, Stewart, Sturgeon, Nicola, Swinburne, John, Swinney, Mr John, Tosh, Murray, Welsh, Mr Andrew

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The result of the division is: For 60, Against 56, Abstentions 0.

Amendment 48 agreed to.

[Amendment 86 moved—[Mr Adam Ingram.]]

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The question is, that amendment 86 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

Division number 25

For: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Baird, Shiona, Ballance, Chris, Ballard, Mark, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Byrne, Ms Rosemary, Canavan, Dennis, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Frances, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Fergusson, Alex, Fox, Colin, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Gibson, Rob, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Grahame, Christine, Harper, Robin, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Johnstone, Alex, Kane, Rosie, Leckie, Carolyn, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Martin, Campbell, Marwick, Tricia, Mather, Jim, Matheson, Michael, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, McFee, Mr Bruce, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Mundell, David, Neil, Alex, Robison, Shona, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, Eleanor, Scott, John, Stevenson, Stewart, Sturgeon, Nicola, Swinburne, John, Swinney, Mr John, Tosh, Murray, Welsh, Mr Andrew
Against: Baillie, Jackie, Baker, Richard, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Eadie, Helen, Ferguson, Patricia, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Gorrie, Donald, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McConnell, Mr Jack, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mike, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stone, Mr Jamie, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The result of the division is: For 54, Against 61, Abstentions 0.

Amendment 86 disagreed to.

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

Group 12 is on powers of tribunal in relation to reference. Amendment 87, in the name of Adam Ingram, is grouped with amendment 88.

Photo of Adam Ingram Adam Ingram Scottish National Party

Amendment 87 will extend the powers of the tribunal to ensure that it can direct anyone involved in delivering a co-ordinated support plan to fulfil their obligations. No doubt the minister will argue that such powers are implicit in the bill, but many fears have been raised during consideration of the bill about the fact that agencies outwith the education authority will not be under the same obligation to deliver that the education authority will be under. Providing those powers explicitly in the bill will help to reassure those with such concerns. I will leave amendment 88 for my colleague Fiona Hyslop to explain.

I move amendment 87.

Photo of Fiona Hyslop Fiona Hyslop Scottish National Party

Amendment 88 would allow ministers to empower tribunals to impose sanctions on education authorities or other appropriate agencies if they fail to comply with a tribunal decision. I have concerns. Robert Brown said that somehow I was questioning the performance of HMIE, but that is not in the least true. I question its ability to examine individual cases, because it does not look at individual cases. If, in an individual case, an agency or education authority has not carried out a decision of a tribunal, the tribunal must have the power to impose some kind of sanction.

Recommendation 73 of the Education Committee's stage 1 report said that the role of HMIE should be explained. Frankly, I think that that role has not been explained. That is one of the reasons why we want to strengthen the powers of tribunals, so that they can impose sanctions if a health authority or an education authority fails to comply with their decisions. We cannot wait three or four years for a school or local authority inspection for that to happen.

Photo of Lord James Selkirk Lord James Selkirk Conservative 4:30 pm, 1st April 2004

Amendment 87 would make it clear that tribunals could require not only authorities to take certain actions, but any person who is identified in a plan as a person by whom additional support should be provided. It is essential that the tribunals have teeth and the amendment would extend their authority.

On amendment 88, it is important that if an education authority or another agency neglects or maltreats a young person who has additional support needs, appropriate sanctions should be in place if there is a failure to comply with tribunal decisions. Amendment 88 is a worthy attempt to ensure that children who have additional support needs are properly looked after.

Photo of Euan Robson Euan Robson Liberal Democrat

Amendment 87 seeks to extend the tribunals' jurisdiction by giving them powers to require non-education authority providers of additional support that are named in the CSP to take action as determined by a tribunal. However, that is not necessary, because education authorities will be able to request the help of other agencies under section 19. Those agencies must comply, except in limited circumstances. It is important that a single agency takes a clear lead in securing provision for children and young people who require additional support. That responsibility should rest with education authorities, which hold responsibility for children's education. Ministers will have powers under the bill to direct education authorities, whether on specific matters or more generally, and there will be similar powers to direct other statutory bodies that fail to comply with relevant duties. As I see no reason to extend the tribunals' powers as suggested by amendment 87, I ask members to reject it.

Similarly, amendment 88 is unhelpful. To provide the tribunals with powers to impose unspecified sanctions on education authorities and other agencies would change the nature and role of the tribunals. Other agencies will not be one of the parties at tribunals and will not have the opportunity to make representations, although they may appear as witnesses for a party. As I said, ministers have sufficient powers of direction in the unlikely event that an education authority chooses to ignore the requirements of a tribunal. It is not appropriate or necessary to hand such powers to the tribunals. Therefore, I ask members to oppose amendment 88.

Photo of Adam Ingram Adam Ingram Scottish National Party

We will have to agree to disagree with the minister's interpretation.

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The question is, that amendment 87 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

Division number 26

For: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Byrne, Ms Rosemary, Canavan, Dennis, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Frances, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Fox, Colin, Gallie, Phil, Gibson, Rob, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Grahame, Christine, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Johnstone, Alex, Kane, Rosie, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Martin, Campbell, Marwick, Tricia, Mather, Jim, Matheson, Michael, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, McFee, Mr Bruce, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Monteith, Mr Brian, Mundell, David, Neil, Alex, Robison, Shona, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, John, Stevenson, Stewart, Sturgeon, Nicola, Swinburne, John, Tosh, Murray
Against: Baillie, Jackie, Baird, Shiona, Baker, Richard, Ballance, Chris, Ballard, Mark, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Eadie, Helen, Ferguson, Patricia, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Gorrie, Donald, Harper, Robin, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robson, Euan, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scott, Eleanor, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stone, Mr Jamie, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The result of the division is: For 43, Against 65, Abstentions 0.

Amendment 87 disagreed to.

[Amendment 88 moved—[Fiona Hyslop].]

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The question is, that amendment 88 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

Division number 27

For: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Brocklebank, Mr Ted, Byrne, Ms Rosemary, Canavan, Dennis, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Frances, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fox, Colin, Gallie, Phil, Gibson, Rob, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Grahame, Christine, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Johnstone, Alex, Kane, Rosie, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Martin, Campbell, Marwick, Tricia, Mather, Jim, Matheson, Michael, Maxwell, Mr Stewart, McFee, Mr Bruce, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, Milne, Mrs Nanette, Mitchell, Margaret, Monteith, Mr Brian, Mundell, David, Neil, Alex, Robison, Shona, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, John, Stevenson, Stewart, Sturgeon, Nicola, Swinburne, John, Tosh, Murray
Against: Baillie, Jackie, Baird, Shiona, Baker, Richard, Ballance, Chris, Ballard, Mark, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Eadie, Helen, Ferguson, Patricia, Gillon, Karen, Glen, Marlyn, Gorrie, Donald, Harper, Robin, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McMahon, Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Pringle, Mike, Purvis, Jeremy, Radcliffe, Nora, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mike, Ruskell, Mr Mark, Scott, Eleanor, Scott, Tavish, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stone, Mr Jamie, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

The result of the division is: For 42, Against 66, Abstentions 0.

Amendment 88 disagreed to.