Dog Fouling (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Part of the debate – in the Scottish Parliament at 4:40 pm on 16 January 2003.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Bruce Crawford Bruce Crawford Scottish National Party 4:40, 16 January 2003

What contrasts this chamber can provide. This morning, we talked about international affairs, but this afternoon we are discussing issues to do with Scotland's pavements. The way in which the atmosphere in the chamber can change is astonishing.

I welcome Keith Harding's proposal, which I think is great and I offer him my sincere congratulations. Having read the Local Government Committee's report, it is obvious that a thorough job was done and that some serious issues were considered.

Keech is an old Scots word for excrement and I hope, for Keith's sake, that he does not become known as Mr Keech Harding because of his association with the bill. In many ways, however, it would be a tribute to him if he did, because it would show that he had left behind something of note.

It is obvious that Keith Harding has been prepared to take a flexible and pragmatic approach to the bill and the opportunity for its being amended at stage 2.

I was a councillor for 13 years and agree with other members that dog fouling is one of the main topics in councillors' surgeries. I was the council's environmental health convener for four years and during that time there was a lot of investment in ways in which to deal with the dog-fouling problem. Dog wardens were employed and we had exercise control areas, bins for dog excrement, free pooper scoopers and an education programme. However, despite the amount of effort that was made, not a lot changed because, to be frank, the law did not allow sufficient powers of enforcement. I am the first to accept that education must go hand in hand with enforcement and I offer my congratulations to Andy Kerr and the Executive for making available the extra investment of £100,000. Because of past experience, it is my view that education alone will not make sufficient difference. All the carrots in the world will make no difference unless we are also able to use a big stick. Keith Harding's bill will allow us to go in that direction.

We need to have tougher penalties and we need to bring about a culture change. We must take pride in our country and in our communities. If that happens, irresponsible dog owners might begin to respond. Keith Harding has given us an opportunity to take an important step and he deserves plaudits for that.

Earlier, Keith Harding said that the legislation would apply in all areas to which the public has access. That worries me because the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill will give the public the right to go into areas all over Scotland. As Tricia Marwick asked earlier, how will we differentiate between agricultural and rough areas? Further consideration needs to be given to that issue because the legislation might otherwise be undermined. For example, if action is taken against a person who allows a dog to defecate in a public park, that person might be able to argue reasonably that no action was taken against them when they previously allowed their dog to defecate in rough areas. I do not know what the answer to that problem is, but I think that the matter needs further examination.

As far as fixed penalties are concerned, it is a good idea to up the ante incrementally and to make it more difficult for offenders if they refuse to pay. Is 10 per cent enough? That is another question that needs to be examined; if the percentage uplift was greater it might increase the number of fines that were paid up front, and it might reduce bureaucracy further down the line. Perhaps that issue can be examined.

The issue that causes me greatest concern is young offenders—those who are under the age of 16. They have no income and no means to pay, as Bill Aitken properly pointed out. It might be that in practice, people who are under 16 will not be fined. However, in theory they could be fined and while that theoretical possibility exists, the potential exists for difficult situations to arise for people who are under 16.

The Scottish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals submitted further evidence to the Parliament today, which states:

"If a minor is in charge of a dog when an offence is committed, the person who gave the minor responsibility for the dog should be held responsible."

That suggests that the parents of children should be held responsible. Perhaps the legislation could address that, instead of fining young offenders.

There are other points that I would like to make, but I recognise the tightness of time. I conclude by congratulating Keith Harding sincerely.