Prison Estates Review

Part of the debate – in the Scottish Parliament at 12:17 pm on 18 April 2002.

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Photo of Richard Simpson Richard Simpson Labour 12:17, 18 April 2002

The Executive called for this debate because we wanted to hear members' views as part of the consultation process. For the most part, the debate has been measured. We all clearly agree that it is imperative to end slopping out and to set a timetable for doing so and that, as Paul Martin stressed, it is important to modernise the estate to meet modern correctional practice standards and to address issues of rehabilitation and reoffending. I agree with Paul Martin that the review does not cover rehabilitation in detail; it deals primarily with bricks and mortar. However, the thrust behind our policy is to address the problem of reoffending. We also want to avoid overcrowding. As some members pointed out, overcrowding is a problem in many prisons and we need to get rid of it.

The one issue on which we do not agree is how we achieve best value in the new estate. However, the crux of the problem for the Scottish Executive centres on the advice that we received from the SPS, which we have attempted to verify. I have listened to members' criticisms on the matter and I should point out that we have at least made such an attempt. If we had not done that, members would have criticised our failure to do so. We have endeavoured to examine the situation closely.

Why have we delayed the report for a whole year? We have taken so long over the issue because in the first instance there was disbelief about the figures. PricewaterhouseCoopers was given free access to all the available figures and came up with its own conclusions. Those conclusions, too, demonstrated the substantial difference between the private sector and public sector options.

The question that Mike Rumbles has repeatedly asked SNP members is what they would do, given the advice that it would take 12 years to ensure public provision. The advice that we have received is that the ability to procure in the public sector, here and in England, will lead to substantial delays. The delay may not be as great as 12 years and we may be able to achieve what we need in less time than that, but that is the advice that we have received. The SNP has signally failed to come up with an alternative offer. I hope that it will do so during the consultation.