International Women's Day

– in the Scottish Parliament at 5:00 pm on 6 March 2002.

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Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative 5:00, 6 March 2002

The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S1M-2784, in the name of Johann Lamont, on international women's day. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes that 8 March 2002 is International Women's Day; congratulates the Women Together group in the Pollok constituency and women across Scotland and around the world who are organising events to celebrate the work of women past, present and future; recognises the central role of women in our communities in meeting needs today and creating change for tomorrow and beyond, and urges the Scottish Executive and the Parliament's committees, in partnership with women's organisations, to examine how women's needs and rights might more effectively be addressed across the range of services, departments and organisations that impact on women's lives.

Photo of Johann Lamont Johann Lamont Labour 5:04, 6 March 2002

Members may be aware that we are now online worldwide and that this debate will be webcast across the universe. I have always been stroppy at home and I am learning to be stroppy for Pollok, but even I am a touch fazed at the idea of being given the opportunity to be stroppy on a global basis. We should congratulate the broadcasting people on the work that they have done thus far, especially on the interactive debating forum. I hope that members will encourage local people to contribute.

It is a great privilege for me to be given the opportunity to speak in the debate, but it is a still greater privilege to be one of 48 women parliamentarians in the Scottish Parliament. We have the third highest proportion of women parliamentarians in the world. There is no doubt that that is a great achievement. It did not happen by accident; it was achieved by the determination of women.

I endorse the work of the 50/50 campaign, which seeks to achieve equal representation at all levels—including on local authorities and in public bodies. I welcome the United Kingdom Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Bill, which will support that work. It is important for us to hold on to what we have. We do not underestimate that challenge.

I welcome the opportunity to highlight international women's day. I quote one source that says:

"International women's day is the story of ordinary women as makers of history. It is rooted in the centuries-old struggle of women to participate in society on an equal footing with men."

International women's day provides not only an opportunity for events to celebrate women's role in society and push for greater recognition, but

"an opportunity for reviewing, restating and acting on the political, economic and social rights of women."

I trust that the debate will play a part in that opportunity.

I acknowledge and celebrate the role of women who work locally to sustain families and fragile communities for no reason other than that it is work that must be done. I acknowledge in particular the role of women in Pollok and send best wishes to Women Together in Pollok, which will be running an event for women tomorrow.

Anyone who says that women's involvement makes life safer and sweeter has not attended any of the local meetings, which I am sure that we have all experienced, where women lead the charge and demand that things change. Such fierceness and tenacity can and does move mountains. We all know such women. They have a local commitment and focus, but are also part of a global chain of endeavour, making a real difference to people's lives.

When we reflect on the role of women, it is clear that women have driven a shift in public policy. In the main, it was women who created local child care initiatives. Those initiatives shaped and established the foundation for the Scottish Executive and UK Government approach to supporting early intervention strategies to tackle disadvantage and support women into work. Women have been in the driving seat, finding imaginative and more effective ways of identifying local need and delivering services to meet that need. The development of the voluntary sector is testimony to that work.

Women have driven the political agenda, which has finally begun to acknowledge that child sexual abuse, male violence against women, the role of carers—who are overwhelmingly women—and low pay are issues that should be at centre stage in the considerations of political parties, Governments and Parliaments.

We should review the situation with a critical eye. We believe in women's representation in itself, but we also believe that it has a purpose. Much more needs to be done to achieve the ambitions that are encapsulated in the aims of international women's day. Women are still fleeing violence and are made refugees in their own country by the men with whom they live. Young women in our communities are experiencing a worrying trend of increasing levels of violence. Male violence against women continues and the statistics remain horrific. The challenge for those who express sympathy for victims is not to say that something should be done and that we must help, but to ask the harder question: why is this happening? We will not solve the problems unless we address the underlying relationships of power in our society.

Despite a quarter of a century of equality legislation, women are still more likely to work part time and are still more likely to be low paid. Last year, women still earned only 81p for every pound that was earned by men. In that context, it is a matter of regret that, of the top 50 Scottish companies approached by the union Amicus to consider voluntary equal pay audits, only 10 per cent gave a positive response. We must ask what those companies have to hide and what inequality they wish to perpetuate.

Although young women consistently outperform young men educationally, male hands are still, overwhelmingly, on the levers of power. Recent figures show that less than 2 per cent of executive directors are women. It is an irony that commentators have the cheek to suggest that positive action for women promotes gender before merit given that broader society reflects a situation that is exactly the opposite.

We must reaffirm our commitment to equality and redouble our efforts to exercise our authority and influence to achieve that equality. I urge the Executive to examine its policies and priorities, and to question what it is doing to make the difference. Where is the evidence of Executive departments' commitment to such work and how are they ensuring that resources are targeted equally? I urge the committees of the Parliament to take responsibility in their areas of expertise to consider the impact of their work on women.

This is not a counsel of despair. We must not only consider where women are, but ask why that is the case. In answering the harder question, we must develop action that will allow today's children—our daughters and our sons—to inherit a world in which equality and mutual respect are the watchwords. I send international women's day greetings to all those across the world who share that aim and dream.

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

I think that we will have to extend business. We will work out the timings later. If we have speeches of about three or four minutes, we should manage to get most speakers in before we need to extend business.

Photo of Kenneth Gibson Kenneth Gibson Scottish National Party 5:10, 6 March 2002

I will certainly be brief, Presiding Officer, not only because a number of members wish to speak but because Johann Lamont made many of the points that I wanted to make. I commend Johann Lamont for securing the debate at what is an important time, given that international women's day is tomorrow. I also commend her for highlighting the work of the Women Together group in Pollock.

It is obvious that women still get a raw deal in society. As Johann Lamont pointed out, they have less economic clout, they receive lower wages and more women work part time. One expects and hopes—certainly, one anticipates—that, at some point, the superior educational attainment of girls in our schools will feed through and that the executive directorships that Johann Lamont talked about will be shared equally by men and women.

It is extremely important to those of us who have mothers, daughters and sisters that women get a raw—that women get the best possible deal in our society. [Laughter.]

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

That was a Freudian slip.

Photo of Kenneth Gibson Kenneth Gibson Scottish National Party

It was not quite Freudian.

The tremendous turnout—possibly the highest for a members' business debate since the Parliament was established—shows the importance of the issue, but much work remains to be done. I hope that the Executive will address the fundamental issue of gender proofing. I understand that some work on that has been done and undoubtedly the Deputy Minister for Social Justice will speak about that work, on which we would like more rapid progress to be made. We must, for example, acknowledge the work that women do in looking after elderly relatives, which has a clear impact on how budgets should be distributed.

We must consider the international dimension. In many societies, women get a much worse deal than they do in our society. We all saw the suffering of women in Afghanistan when, under the Taliban, women were not allowed to receive care from a male doctor, but could not become doctors because they were prevented from participating in education.

Progress is being made in some third world countries. The Green Bank in Bangladesh tries to lend money to women's groups to allow women to develop small businesses independently of men and to get away from the patriarchal nature of society there.

The SNP has a distinguished female president in Winnie Ewing. Two of my parliamentary colleagues are in Barcelona for international women's day. Linda Fabiani, who has been at the forefront of the women's movement and shares many of Johann Lamont's ideals and views, wanted to speak in the debate but was asked to represent the SNP at the European Free Alliance women's network meeting in Barcelona. The network is an organisation in which parties share information and experience, co-ordinate activities, provide mutual support to women and promote the aims of self-determination for our nations and regions. The events in Barcelona culminate with a women's march on Friday night.

Linda Fabiani has also attended the Women's Federation of Latin American Politicians, which was inaugurated in Peru and which tries to ensure that women in nations that have lower levels of economic and social development are able to be represented at all levels of government.

On behalf of Linda Fabiani, I highlight the work of Fokupers, which is a women's human rights organisation in East Timor that works to ensure civic education for the women of East Timor so that they can take their place in running one of the world's newest democracies.

It is important that women fight for their rights in this country and that they encourage men to help in that struggle. It is also important that women maintain international links with their counterparts throughout the world for mutual support and the sharing of experience and ideas. I am pleased to be able to speak in the debate and I am pleased with the patience that the Presiding Officer has shown me.

Photo of Pauline McNeill Pauline McNeill Labour 5:15, 6 March 2002

I welcome the debate on international women's day and I thank Johann Lamont for securing it. I will say a few words about women and justice. I have dealt with that issue in the past two years and a number of very important aspects of the justice system still need to be addressed.

Too many women are in prison. This year we have record-breaking figures—we have reached the upper limits in Cornton Vale prison. That must be addressed. Although many women who are in Cornton Vale need to be there, many do not. Many women would benefit from other types of disposal that are more appropriate to their particular circumstances and to the crimes that they commit. Seventy per cent of the women in Cornton Vale are primary carers or mothers. The lack of community service orders means that some women are not able to organise their lives around their responsibilities.

In the experience of the ex-governor of Cornton Vale, time and again the lives of many of the women who returned to the prison were disorganised and chaotic and their health was worse than ever. She was particularly keen on the development of halfway houses as a way of getting the more organised former women prisoners into the community. I am pleased that there has been debate about such disposals in the Parliament. I am also pleased that the ministerial group on women's offending has moved forward on time-out centres, which will mean that more appropriate disposals are available to women.

From the evidence that we have heard, we know about the ways in which women's lives are disrupted by prison. Often, they lose the most basic things, such as their identification and their family allowance books—the things that are most vital to their identity. The vicious cycle of disorganisation sometimes leads them to reoffending. I am pleased that the Parliament has addressed some of those issues and I look forward to the development of a time-out centre pilot in Glasgow.

Gender discrimination still exists in law. I sit on the Routes out of Prostitution board in Glasgow and I believe that women who are involved in prostitution must be offered real choices in their lives. The Scottish Executive has provided significant amounts of money to ensure that women have those choices, should they want them. It is wrong that the law says that a woman who is soliciting is a common prostitute, whereas a man is not convicted for kerb-crawling. That represents direct discrimination in law.

We are all aware that women are significantly under-represented at all levels. It is still very much the case that women take up stereotypical roles in the criminal justice system, such as sitting on children's panels and working as social workers. We need to encourage women into all levels of the criminal justice system. There are only two women judges and too few women sheriffs. We must examine how we can ensure that women are represented more widely in the upper parts of the legal profession. Although women make up 50 per cent of all solicitors in Scotland, only one in five are partners in firms.

Fair representation of women in the Parliament has a point and women of all parties have demonstrated that. We are much more likely to drive forward the interests of women and international women's day is a good day to do that. I support Johann Lamont's motion.

Photo of Shona Robison Shona Robison Scottish National Party 5:19, 6 March 2002

I congratulate Johann Lamont on securing this important debate. I am reliably informed that international women's day originated with textile workers in America. Perhaps that is why the jute workers of Dundee—who were nearly all women—have left that city a reputation for having strong women, where men are known as kettle-boilers and appear to know their place. That has been my experience. Dundee women have been very effective in the development of local services for women. I had the opportunity to visit one such project—the Young Women's Project—on Monday, which provides an important service to young women who have been sexually abused. As well as paying tribute to that project, I will take the opportunity to plug it. The project's funding runs out in September, so the minister will receive a request for more funding. I hope that she will lend them a sympathetic ear.

Today presents an opportunity to pause for reflection on what women in the Parliament have achieved and what the Parliament has achieved for women. I do not doubt that some decisions, some legislation and many initiatives would never have come to light if the Parliament did not have the level it has of women's representation. There are too many measures to list, but I draw attention to the resourcing of initiatives against domestic violence and legislation to ensure that cohabiting women have the same rights as married women. Many policies that have come to fruition through the Parliament have had a women's dimension. That is to be commended.

No party in the Parliament has a monopoly in equality issues. That is a strength. A consensus for equality has been achieved in the Parliament and there is common understanding. Women constitute more than 50 per cent of Scotland's population and the Parliament has done much to reflect the priorities of women. I look forward to seeing more of that and to working with women of all parties to ensure that we achieve even more.

Photo of Elaine Smith Elaine Smith Labour 5:21, 6 March 2002

I congratulate Johann Lamont on securing the debate. I will take the opportunity to do some advertising. As the gender reporter to the Equal Opportunities Committee, I draw attention to the gender reporter bound volume, which was produced at the tail end of last year and which contains the work that the gender reporter has done since the Parliament began. Johann Lamont was the first gender reporter and I became the reporter after she left the committee. The report is online, which might be useful, given the online coverage of the debate. I would be grateful for feedback on the report from interested parties.

I will concentrate on violence against women and children in its widest sense. The Executive has taken domestic abuse seriously and has made increased resources available to tackle the issues that surround it, particularly on refuge provision. The Executive is attempting to raise awareness on the unacceptability of domestic abuse in modern Scotland and to change attitudes to ensure that blame lies with perpetrators and not in any way with victims.

I commend the publicity campaigns that have been undertaken, such as the "Behind Closed Doors" television advert, and the national helpline. I commend the Executive's work overall, but a more comprehensive view of the continuation of male violence against women and children, rather than a piecemeal approach that focuses on domestic violence in isolation is long overdue. We could also consider that in terms of structural inequality in society.

According to the Executive's study "Men and Women in Scotland: A Statistical Profile" from last year, women are still disadvantaged in many areas of their lives. Johann Lamont and Pauline McNeill touched on that. Men earn more, have better jobs with more chance of promotion and do less housework. That is despite the facts that girls are doing better than boys at school and that more girls are going to university. Perhaps the minister will comment on this year's publication "Social Focus on Women and Men in Scotland", which is to be published on 15 March.

The Executive's evidence is backed by research that has been conducted by the Equal Opportunities Commission that shows that most women in full-time jobs earn only about 82 per cent of the salary that is paid to a man doing the same or similar work. Women's income from pensions, benefits and investments is just half that of men.

As members have said, women are still greatly under-represented in politics and business and in the higher echelons of law, education, trade unions and public bodies. I commend the Scottish Women's Co-ordination Group on relaunching the 50/50 campaign for gender equality in decision-making bodies. That group's leaflet "Equal Voices Equal Scotland" says:

"The Scottish Parliament is a world leader in respect of the proportion of women members, but there is a need to maintain and improve upon its record.

The passage of the Sex Discrimination (Election of Candidates) Act gives the opportunity for positive measures to be taken to maintain and improve Scotland's record. International evidence suggests significant progress is unlikely to be achieved without positive action measures."

The message is that complacency is dangerous.

I believe that social, cultural and political structural inequality serves to offer privilege to men over women. That, in turn, creates conditions for violence. The continuation of male violence against women and children includes domestic abuse, rape, sexual assault, child sexual abuse, sexual harassment, prostitution and pornography. It is premised on women's inequality and subordination in society.

The harm that is caused by some forms of male violence has been recognised and attempts have been made to tackle it. Other forms, such as prostitution and pornography, have not been addressed and they seem to be somehow more publicly accepted. Next Tuesday, the Public Petitions Committee will consider a petition from Scottish Women Against Pornography.

I had a lot more to say, but I see that the Presiding Officer is having a wee squint at me. I will finish by saying that male violence against women is a widespread manifestation of gender discrimination, which I argue is the most prevalent and the most insidious form of discrimination in our society. I have no doubt about the Executive's commitment to tackling the issue and I am sure that Margaret Curran will reply to the points that have been raised in the debate.

We must recognise and tackle women's under-representation in public life. Women's rights are human rights and it is that context that they must be demanded. Women will not achieve equality and we cannot effectively tackle gender discrimination while we continue to accept a society within which women are systematically undermined by the pervasiveness of all forms of male violence.

I am happy to associate myself with Johann Lamont's motion.

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

I will now squint at Lyndsay McIntosh, who is to be followed by Trish Godman.

Photo of Lyndsay McIntosh Lyndsay McIntosh Conservative 5:26, 6 March 2002

I had no idea that the Presiding Officer's eyesight might be so bad.

I rise to add my voice to the voices of those who have spoken. I congratulate Johann Lamont on her motion to note the fact that we celebrate international women's day this week. I join her also in congratulating those who are organising events around the world to celebrate the work of women from the past, present and the future.

International women's day will be commemorated at the United Nations and it is designated in many countries as a national holiday. Throughout Scotland, the day will be marked by events and festivals such as the health and awareness promotion day in Prestwick and the education, networking, action, culture and training—ENACT—festival for women in Edinburgh.

The idea for an international women's day first arose at the turn of the 20th century. As we are now at the beginning of a new century, international women's day has assumed a new global dimension for women in developed and developing countries. A growing international women's movement has been strengthened by the United Nations' four women's conferences, and the commemoration of international women's day has served as a rallying point for co-ordinated efforts to demand women's rights and participation in politics and the economic process. Women have risen to the challenge more than adequately.

As a member of the Equal Opportunities Committee, I am well aware of the role that women parliamentarians play in the relatively new institution that is the Scottish Parliament. As others have mentioned, the Scottish Parliament has the fourth highest proportion of women members in Parliaments worldwide—behind Sweden, Denmark and Wales. The Scottish Parliament has nearly three times the global average of women members, whereas our colleagues in Westminster comes a disappointing thirty-third in the rankings. That is despite the redoubtable efforts of Maria Fyffe, who is present in the gallery this evening.

I was fortunate to be part of the special conference of women parliamentarians that was held in Edinburgh last September. The conference brought together participants from the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales, the Dàil, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the House of Commons and it was extremely productive. During the conference, discussion groups were held under titles such as "women legislators leading the way to increase women's political participation" and "creating compromise within Parliament". I am sure that members who were present at the conference will acknowledge and remember it as a useful and stimulating event. I enjoyed particularly the social aspect and the companionship and camaraderie with colleagues across the political divide. I cherish that memory—the members to whom I refer know who they are.

I remain a firm believer in meritocracy when it comes to getting women involved in the political process. Women in Britain want the freedom to live their lives according to what suits them and their families. I believe in choice and individual freedom, which is something that is not enjoyed around the world. The best people to do the job should be those who have been elected to do so.

I thank Johann Lamont for securing the debate and look forward to the time—perhaps in 2004—when the Scottish Parliament will have an even higher proportion of women representing the needs of the people of Scotland. Perhaps then there might also be more Conservative women MSPs than the current trio.

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour 5:30, 6 March 2002

I also thank Johann Lamont for once again lodging a very interesting motion for debate.

In a similar debate two years ago, I spoke about the bravery and subsequent arrest of Aung San Suu Kyi. I also mentioned Las Madres des Jueves, the women who parade in the main square in Buenos Aires, holding aloft photographs of their missing sons, husbands and brothers and pleading with their Government for information. Aung San Suu Kyi is still under house arrest, Las Madres des Jueves are still there and little has changed in many women's lives in the past two years.

We who live in mature parliamentary democracies must continue to campaign for women who are subjected to cruelty as part of their everyday lives. Women who speak out must have our support.

Photo of John Young John Young Conservative

I am most grateful to Trish Godman for giving way. Some years back, we both sat on the women's committee in Glasgow City Council and I asked the committee a question to which I never received an answer. I have listened to a number of women speakers this afternoon, but I want to ask them about the position of certain women in the Muslim community who do not enjoy any form of equal rights with their male counterparts. Will those women be mentioned in any speeches this evening?

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

Of course they will be mentioned. However, I have only four minutes and cannot mention everyone. I honestly do not remember sitting on the committee with John Young, so he must have made a really good contribution to the committee's work.

This is Fairtrade fortnight. By way of the Fairtrade Foundation, Oxfam and other non-governmental organisations have been able to encourage the creation of numerous women's co-operatives that provide a wide variety of food and goods.

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

No.

Every time we buy Fairtrade products— [Interruption.] No—I am not taking an intervention. [Interruption.]

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

Mr Young, the member is not giving way. [MEMBERS: "Switch him off."] He cannot be switched off; his microphone is not on. [Interruption.] Mr Young, I call you to order. The member has not given way. I will allow Trish Godman additional time to compensate for the disturbance.

Photo of Trish Godman Trish Godman Labour

I will start again. This is Fairtrade fortnight. By way of the Fairtrade Foundation, Oxfam and other NGOs have been able to encourage the creation of numerous women's co-operatives that provide a wide variety of food and goods. As a result, every time we buy Fairtrade products, we help not only struggling communities but women who have set up co-operatives and village businesses.

However, there is clear evidence that, in a world that has food surpluses, two thirds of the world's absolute poor—mainly women and children—remain what is called food-insecure. It is common to find that, in poor countries, men and boys are given priority over women and girls in the distribution of food. As a result, NGOs such as the Fairtrade Foundation play an important role.

This week, the Parliament is being visited by a delegation from the Canadian branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I am pleased to say that some women members of that delegation are in the gallery. Some might think that the Commonwealth has little international value. However, whatever its weaknesses, it plays an important role in the defence of democracy and the protection of women activists and representatives. After speaking to the women who have visited this week, I assure members that that remains the case.

Back at home, I am disappointed by a Home Office minister's decision not to allow asylum seeker mothers who are HIV-positive to receive tokens for milk formula. As breastfeeding can contribute substantially to the risk of HIV transmission from mother to child, I sincerely hope that that minister will reconsider the decision. In the meantime, we in Scotland should take the initiative and provide tokens for that purpose. It cannot involve much money—there cannot be many asylum seeker mothers who have the illness—but that also represents discrimination against women.

In the Scottish Parliament, we have equal representation in the Labour group, an Equal Opportunities Committee, a Scottish Executive equality unit and a commitment to the Scottish partnership on domestic abuse with an £8 million package of funding. We are going some way to being more inclusive. We have more women representation. Other members mentioned the 50/50 campaign, which I am sure we all support, but I do not believe that that is enough. Women here and in other countries continue to be treated as second-class citizens or worse. We must change that kind of social, economic and political conditioning. Sadly, we have a long way to go.

Photo of Donald Gorrie Donald Gorrie Liberal Democrat 5:35, 6 March 2002

I congratulate Johann Lamont on an exceptionally well written motion—many of us could learn from that—and focus on her phrase

"the work of women past, present and future".

The first person of whom I am aware who fought for the women's cause was the Greek writer of comedies, Aristophanes. One of his comedies, the Lysistrata, centres around a sex strike by the Greek women, who are fed up with their men continuing a ludicrous war between various cities. We have advanced a bit since then, but we still have a long way to go.

Consider the suffragettes. Three aunties of mine were suffragists—they were the legal branch, not the more violent branch. They displayed amazing resolution, courage and organisational ability in promoting their cause and handing out their newspapers and so on in a very male-dominated society. However, in the 1950s, when I got married, it was assumed, without discussion, that women would either have a career or be married; they did not do both. A teacher at one school in which I taught had a second-class degree while his wife, who had a first-class degree, kept house. We have come on a long way since then, but we still have problems. About 10 years ago, I left a church in Edinburgh because it declined to allow Scottish Women's Aid to have its headquarters in a building owned by the church.

Many members have mentioned people who live in what we might call the poorer areas, but the pressures of the market represent a huge problem that is faced by well-to-do people in business and the professions. There is such pressure on people to work harder that it combats their desire to work with their families. We have a ludicrous position that some people work far too hard and others have no job at all. We must sort that out.

It may be that some of the things that could help are more in the control of Westminster, such as higher pensions for the very oldest people, most of whom are women. More help at the bottom end of the income tax scale would help women, particularly single women. The experience of countries in continental Europe shows that proportional representation voting systems tend to produce more women MPs.

The future lies in mobilising the energies and skills of the women in the community. Any church is largely inhabited by middle-aged women who have a lot of energy, knowledge and skill. They put some of that into related charities and so on, but they have a lot more energy that we could use in the community. We must harness the energy of women in all communities; they often have more talent than the men and are more anti- establishment. If we wish to crack open the establishment, the women would be a much better task force. They have more skill, more energy and are not as conservative as many men.

I have practised what I have preached to some extent, in that I encouraged a certain lady to become involved in politics and to stand for the council. She was then selected for my constituency in preference to me. I sought my fortune elsewhere—fortunately with success.

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

I should call the minister at this stage, but six members still want to speak. I am therefore minded, with the agreement of members, to extend the debate.

Photo of Johann Lamont Johann Lamont Labour

May I move a motion to extend the business?

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

Yes.

Motion moved,

That, under Rule 2.2.6(d), the meeting be extended until 6.15 pm.— [Johann Lamont.]

Motion agreed to.

Photo of Cathy Peattie Cathy Peattie Labour 5:40, 6 March 2002

I am proud to be a member of the Labour party who fought hard on the 50/50 campaign to ensure that there was women's representation in this Parliament. I believe that we need to see that kind of representation across the board. Not until we see quangos, businesses and local authorities with fair women's representation should that campaign stop.

I would like to talk about women in our communities. As we have heard, women are the backbone of our communities. Women activists, whether in Grangemouth or at the other end of the world, hold our communities together. We have heard about international women's week; events will be taking place throughout Scotland during the coming week. The ENACT project and women's festival is happening in Edinburgh at this very moment; in fact, it will be launched this evening.

The ENACT project has developed its own Oscars ceremony—the Elsie awards—to identify hidden heroines. There are hidden heroines in every community. The heroines that the Elsie awards recognise are local, national and international. Nominations have been received from across the world to honour women such as Shamsu Makda, who worked under the apartheid regime in South Africa at grass-roots level, fighting poverty and campaigning for better health and education services. Shamsu worked with and encouraged other women in spite of the injustices that she herself faced, and she is still working in that community, believing that women are a force for change.

Another heroine is Jackie Johnston, from Bo'ness. Her daughter is a heroin addict. She looked for services and support that did not exist. She tried to get help from the police, who were unable to listen. By bringing people together and by shouting at people responsible for various services, she has managed to create the kind of partnership that is an example to any other area of Scotland. Anyone who speaks to the people Jackie shouted at in the health service and police force will hear them say that she made them work together. Jackie Johnston is an excellent example of an ordinary woman who felt that things should be better, and who acted in her community to make things better for everyone.

It is right that we celebrate international women's day, here in Scotland and elsewhere in the world, whether it is about celebrating women of the past or women of the future. I am a mother of daughters. I want a better life for my daughters and everyone else's daughters, and their sons. We have a responsibility constantly to raise women's issues and to celebrate international women's day. It is only right that this Parliament should do that. I congratulate Johann Lamont on bringing the motion to Parliament.

Photo of Dorothy-Grace Elder Dorothy-Grace Elder Independent 5:43, 6 March 2002

I congratulate Johann Lamont, who has been faithful to women's issues from the very start of this Parliament and who has put an enormous amount of work into women's issues here in the Parliament and in her own area.

Gil Paterson has asked me to make his apologies tonight. He is convener of the cross-party group on men's violence against women and children, which is meeting tonight. Gil wants to make it clear that that is why he is not here, but he says that his heart is with us tonight.

A few questionable things have been said recently about women MSPs. For instance, it has been stated that women MSPs ask the First Minister fewer questions than male MSPs do. That is perhaps an illusion. We know, although the general public might not, that questions are selected every week by the parliamentary system. Whether one gets a question is the luck of the draw. I am one of many women who regularly lodge questions to the First Minister, but I do not happen to get chosen. That is tough, but it does not mean that few women MSPs lodge questions to the First Minister.

Photo of Elaine Smith Elaine Smith Labour

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Do not the standing orders provide that the Presiding Officer selects the questions to the First Minister's whereas questions to other ministers go into the system and there is a lucky draw?

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

That is how the system works. I did not think it necessary to interrupt Ms Elder and I certainly did not want to turn her fire on the Presiding Officer.

Photo of Dorothy-Grace Elder Dorothy-Grace Elder Independent

I thank Elaine Smith. We have named the guilty man. In general, there is fairness—it is the luck of the draw.

Oscar Wilde said that football is a game fit only for rough girls. It might sometimes be thought that question time on Thursdays is a game fit only for rough girls. Many of us absolutely love question time.

I want to discuss two issues in particular. The first is civil service pay. Today, I was brought research showing that women civil servants in Scotland earn 28 per cent less than their male colleagues on average—that pay gap is wider than the British average pay gap. The research came from the Public and Commercial Service Union, which represents 30,000 civil servants in Scotland. Grading is part of the reason. Women seem to be put on lower grades time and again. Is that happening in the Parliament? If it is, we must be told. The union is calling for a pay audit of the civil service in Scotland, which is a good campaign to adopt.

I want to tell members about an absolutely harrowing case that many Glasgow MSPs have encountered. A form of discrimination that shortens life must be the very worst form of discrimination. A small queue of women at the Beatson Oncology Centre have been clinically approved for the drug herceptin, but they are not getting it to extend their lives as the local health board does not fund it. The patient appeared at surgery after surgery held by Glasgow MSPs and one or two MPs. She is a middle-aged mother who says, "I just want to extend my life a wee bit longer, as I have a 12-year-old girl. Here is her picture. She is doing well at school. She has won prizes. I would like to be around a wee bit longer. Could you please help me? Could you please contact the Beatson for me?" I and other MSPs did so and were told that the woman is clinically suitable. She has passed all 15 tests, but the health board does not fund herceptin. The clock is ticking for her. She has a cheerful smile and begs elected members for her life. That is disgraceful. I felt appalling when I left a couple of surgeries at which she had turned up. She waited three quarters of an hour to see me on one visit, as a couple of other people were ahead of her.

I say to all members in the chamber that we can do something quickly in the name of international women's day: we can contact the Beatson and help that woman and the others in the queue.

Would not that be a good, quick way of commemorating this marvellous day?

Photo of Maureen Macmillan Maureen Macmillan Labour 5:48, 6 March 2002

I congratulate Johann Lamont on securing the debate. She has always been a good and strong sister in the women's movement. What she said was eminently sensible and what I expected to hear. She made a good, strong feminist speech.

As I represent a large rural region, I want to speak about and celebrate the contribution of women to rural communities. Johann Lamont and other members have pointed out that women see gaps in services and work hard to improve their communities. Throughout the world, women in rural areas face a lack of services and support that is unknown in urban areas. That is the result of scattered populations and constrictions that distance places on the ability to provide services far from the centre.

Recently, I received a letter from a woman who has moved from central Scotland to the south of Skye. She is appalled at the lack of services for women there, compared with what was available back home. There are no child minders, full-time nurseries or information points to give her advice on welfare rights, disability rights or domestic violence. She might have added that wages are low and that there is a lack of employment opportunities and public transport.

Those are the problems in rural areas, but I want to celebrate the women who have worked hard in the area that I represent to overcome the problems and to make a difference to other people's lives. They are often inspired by a real sense of purpose. I cannot mention them all, but I want to give the chamber a representative sample of what they do. First, the women who work for Women's Aid, from Argyll to Shetland, have to reach out into the remotest corners of Scotland and have been able to do so partly because of the Executive's commitment to supporting their work and partly because of their own dedication. They have had to confront traditional cultural values in rural areas about a woman's place and have had to provide support in difficult and demanding conditions.

I also want to celebrate women such as the members of Alness Mothers Against Drugs. They are very ordinary yet extraordinary women who have no experience of public life but are successfully combating the drug pushers in their community and hope to help develop detoxification and rehabilitation facilities. That has not been easy for them because the attitude of professionals was that they are a bunch of women—my God they were mothers—so what business is it of theirs to get involved in anything. That attitude had to be confronted and overcome. The women have done that.

When I was in Rothesay at the weekend I met a woman called Dorothy McDonald, of Achievement Bute, whose dynamism is behind a tremendous project to integrate able-bodied and disabled children in out-of-school activities. Her concerns about her own child's future and the lack of services led her to enrich the lives of a significant number of other children and their families in an area where few or no facilities existed. I realise that Dorothy does not do that single-handedly, but she has been the moving force behind it.

I particularly want to congratulate the women into work programme run by the Workers Educational Association in Inverness. Through seminars, mentoring and providing role models, the project encourages women into public life, encourages women to seek promotion and gives them confidence to try to break through the glass ceiling—sometimes it is more like the lead ceiling. It is most certainly still there. We delude ourselves if we think that the gender balance in the Parliament is reflected in life outside—we have only to look at what happens in boardrooms, hospitals, education and academia to realise that.

Johann Lamont, Pauline McNeill and others have made the point that by perpetuating sexist structures we are excluding the talents of half our population. Women have achieved a lot in the past 30 years, but we are aware that at the present rate of progress it will be about 200 years before we achieve equality. That is not acceptable; we want equality now.

I believe that we must use positive discrimination to change society and to get rid of the stereotypes of the past, which have disadvantaged women for so long. That is a challenge, but it is a challenge we can rise to, sisters. I know that we can do it.

Photo of John Young John Young Conservative 5:53, 6 March 2002

I congratulate Johann Lamont. There is no question but that women have earned their place in society: they earned it during two world wars, in which they showed tremendous gallantry and bravery. I support the concept of more women MSPs, MPs and councillors, but I have to say—and I have chaired and been a member of selection committees over the years—that I have found again and again that women are often the opponents of women applicants.

There is no question but that women play a very important part in our society. I mentioned earlier certain women in the Muslim community. I first noticed the issue when Bashir Maan and I formed the Scottish Pakistani Association in Glasgow. I later had the privilege of becoming vice-chairman of the organisation, under Bashir. At various social events, one would find that almost no Pakistani women were invited. Occasionally some were, but they were often in the higher social rankings, if one can use that expression.

One thing that concerns me very much is the smaller group of women in the Muslim community who are brought over through arranged marriages, which I think is totally wrong, or who are not allowed to learn English—that happened in areas such as Govanhill at one time—and who seem to be almost divorced from the society that they land in. It must have been a tremendous journey for them and, with all the white faces around them, almost like landing on another planet. Those women are an important group in society. We must try to help that limited group of women through persuasion. I would be sorry, in some ways, if people were offended in the process, but people must accept that we live in the 21st century and that old concepts cannot remain as they were.

Women are now recognised. I was interested in Donald Gorrie's remarks. I, too, was married in the 1950s and I agree with what Donald said about the situation of women as recently as that. Their position has advanced. Anyone who tries to stand in women's way will deservedly be tumbled over.

I did not mean to offend Trish Godman with my remarks about the women's committee; I was simply describing my experience. Every female councillor was on that committee or had the right to be on it and so were a number of women officials and trade union representatives. A tiny group of men were on the committee; I was on it ex officio, as leader of the opposition, and Bashir Maan was also on it. I could never get a clear answer about the group of women that I mentioned; the question was always avoided. We should not avoid it any more. Although only a minimal number of women are involved, we should not disregard them.

Photo of Rhona Brankin Rhona Brankin Labour 5:56, 6 March 2002

Like other members who have spoken, I welcome the debate and congratulate Johann Lamont on bringing the debate to the Parliament. As we have heard, the Scottish Parliament has the third-highest level of women representatives in the world. Although that is a great achievement, it was achieved only because of the hard work of many women over many years. The fact that 40 per cent of members are female is not an end in itself; it is a means to an end. We must be able to demonstrate that a woman's place is everywhere and in every Parliament in the world.

Women representatives act as important role models for other women and for young girls. I want to share with members a story. Shortly after the Scottish Parliament was formed, I was coming through the door of the Parliament with two other female members when an older woman rushed up to the three of us and said, "Are you three members of the Scottish Parliament?" Very proudly, we told her that we were, hoping that she would say, "Good on you; it is great to see so many women in there," but she said to me, "See the state of your hair; it's terrible." We have some way to go.

Women representatives are important role models not because of their hair but because of what they do in the Parliament. The figure of 40 per cent is not an end in itself; it is a means to an end. Women bring a woman's perspective to the Parliament. As we have heard, women make up the vast majority of carers and, because of their particular health needs, they are the principal users of the health service. Women also make up the vast majority of the older population. It is vital that women's voices are heard in policy development and in the passage of legislation. I agree with the women who have stated this afternoon that we have seen the impact of women politicians in the legislation that the Parliament has passed.

We accept that women—who make up 52 per cent of the population—must be heard, but how can we ensure that that happens? I welcome the Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Bill at Westminster, which will allow political parties to take action to ensure that institutional barriers to women being involved in politics can be breached.

I challenge the politicians, not only in Scotland, who claim that women can succeed if they have ability. I ask the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties, which sadly have low numbers of women representatives, to consider taking positive action to increase those numbers.

Photo of Lyndsay McIntosh Lyndsay McIntosh Conservative

Rhona Brankin will appreciate the fact that, when a party leader changes, they are always in a difficult situation, trying to change the goalposts midway through the game. I assure her that I have already spoken to Iain Duncan Smith—as I spoke with William Hague, when he became the party leader—and he has given an undertaking that he would like to change the situation and that he is working towards that.

Photo of Rhona Brankin Rhona Brankin Labour

I welcome that, but some people still claim that women with ability can get on in their parties. I ask those people: if it is true that there are no barriers facing women of ability, why are there so few women representatives in some political parties? It is nonsense to say that there are not women of ability in every political party—there are women of ability everywhere. I know women of ability in the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties who are, on occasion, angry about the barriers that still exist. I welcome that commitment from Lyndsay McIntosh; however, barriers to women still exist in all political parties and we cannot leave women's representation to chance.

I shall finish on a personal note. Two years ago, I developed breast cancer. I took the view then that I had a responsibility as a politician to talk openly about my illness, but I could not have predicted what happened. When I was in hospital after my mastectomy, I received hundreds of letters and messages of support from women all over Scotland. The feeling of support and solidarity that I got helped me through a very difficult time. I also pay tribute to the women's cancer support groups in Midlothian for their continuing support for me and many other women in my constituency.

As women politicians, we have a duty to send messages of support and solidarity to women in Scotland and all over the world, whether they are fighting breast cancer, struggling to have their political voices heard or struggling against domestic violence. Sisters and brothers, I am privileged to play a small part in international women's day.

Photo of Susan Deacon Susan Deacon Labour 6:02, 6 March 2002

I, too, congratulate Johann Lamont on securing the debate. I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak briefly in it.

We have heard a great deal about the various skills and attributes of women—and rightly so. One of the things that women are known for is their adaptability, and many of us go through radical life changes from time to time. Those of us here go through perhaps more radical changes than others. One of the things that passes through people's mind as they go through the revolving door of Bute House is that there is not time to reflect on the experience that they had in a former life. Therefore, I take this opportunity to look back on some of the experiences that I had in my two and a half years as the Minister for Health and Community Care.

I put on record my appreciation of what I saw during that time. I do not pretend to have a monopoly of knowledge or particular insight, but I was in a privileged position, with a vantage point across the country, and I visited more communities, hospitals, health centres and projects than I care to remember. Throughout that time, I never ceased to be struck by the extent to which it was and is women who make a difference at every level. We have heard a great deal about the difference that women are making and have made traditionally in our communities, and I echo those comments. As a minister, I was more aware than I had ever been before of the contribution of women, running right through every level of activity—in the boardroom, in patients groups, in trade unions and in professional groups, including general practitioners, consultants, radiographers, school nurses, health visitors, professional bodies and numerous others.

However, all too often, that is not what we hear or see. Theirs are not the names on the press releases or the faces on the television screen, and they are not the people who get the plaudits. That is because women are getting on with doing their jobs and doing them well. They do so not because they want praise, but because they want results.

We have a responsibility to redress the balance and give more praise to those women who really are making a difference. We could argue that women's contribution to society is nothing new, but I think that there has been a change in the past couple of years. The change is that what women who work in areas such as the health service and health improvement are doing is now recognised to be the way forward for so much that will affect positively the future of our communities and nations—for example, practices such as joint working between different organisations and agencies; partnership working in the workplace and in industrial relations; and team working in management. It is right that such practices are more recognised as being effective. We have reached the stage of women's ways of working being validated, but I am not sure whether we have reached the stage of fully recognising that contribution.

We need to challenge the way in which too many aspects of public life—be that in the Parliament chamber or in our public services—are still measured against traditional norms. Too much of the commentary about what is done in public life simply fails to register on the radar as the important work that I have described and that so many of us have seen. If I were to make one appeal, it would be that we work harder and get better at telling that story. Perhaps we women members should say that to ourselves as well as saying it more widely.

I wanted to put on record what I saw during my period as a minister and what I continue to see in my local community. I also want to thank the many women with whom I have worked who often unknowingly recharge our batteries and restore our faith in human nature when it is fast waning. I plead with them not to underestimate their contribution to keeping us politicians going.

I hope that we, as politicians in our national Parliament, can do more to support and recognise what women do. I have no doubt that women are rewriting history, but I do not want to wait 50 years to read about it. I want us to tell that story now.

Photo of Margaret Curran Margaret Curran Labour 6:07, 6 March 2002

I am privileged to be responding for the Executive on this significant day in the calendar for women activists throughout Scotland. I acknowledge, as have all members who spoke, Johann Lamont's contribution to initiating the debate and thank her for that. I also acknowledge all the different versions of her name that we have heard.

As we know, international women's day symbolises how far women have come in their struggle throughout the world for equality, peace and development. Donald Gorrie referred to the suffragettes and the suffragists. It is pertinent for those of us who are interested in the issue of political representation to look at the analyses of that period. It is good that historians do not talk only about the leadership of those campaigns, but about the contribution to them of ordinary working women from Dundee and many other places. They contributed to the achievement of fair and universal suffrage.

Appreciating that fact helps one to understand how long it took to deliver a fair and effective electoral system. We would have disappointed our mothers who took part in those battles if they had known how long it would take us—and continues to take us—to achieve political representation for women. Women quickly understood that they needed not only the vote to deliver fair and effective systems of justice, but political representation.

It is important to record the achievements of the Scottish Parliament. As many members have indicated, we are well up the league in terms of women's representation. We must acknowledge the work that our Westminster partners, who are so far behind us on that issue, will be doing. The Sex Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2001 will help them in that work.

It would be remiss of me to let the only Tory member who spoke in the debate alone pay tribute to Maria Fyfe and her efforts in getting women into the Westminster Parliament and assisting many of us to get into the Scottish Parliament. We must acknowledge the contribution that women such as Maria Fyfe have made to that process. It is important that we pay her respect for that. [Applause.].

All the achievements that I have referred to are the direct results of the efforts of women in previous generations. International women's day encapsulates the solidarity of women and the respect that we pay to the women who did that work. We acknowledge the genesis of international women's day. One hundred and forty-five years ago, women textile workers marched through the streets of New York demanding better wages and improved conditions, only to be met by violence and arrests. That was one of the milestones in the struggle for women's equality. Since then, much has been achieved but, obviously, the struggle continues.

In adopting its resolution in 1977 on the observance of international women's day, the General Assembly of the United Nations cited two reasons: to recognise the fact that securing peace and social progress and the full enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms requires the active participation, equality and development of women; and to acknowledge the contribution of women to the strengthening of international peace and security. For the women of the world, the day's symbolism has a wider meaning. It is an occasion to review how far they have come in their struggle for equality, peace and development. It is also, as many have said today, an opportunity to unite, network and mobilise for meaningful change. This debate will help to move that forward.

As Cathy Peattie and others observed, we must take the opportunity to recognise and celebrate the role of women in our communities in creating change for tomorrow and beyond. International women's day is about respecting past achievements but it should also focus our minds on what lies ahead.

All over Scotland, communities are organising festivals and events to celebrate international women's day. I am pleased that the Scottish Executive is playing its part in trying to facilitate that. This year, the Scottish Executive has developed perhaps its most comprehensive programme so far. Earlier today, the First Minister hosted a reception that recognised the excellent contribution made by women active in their communities. That was reflected in his announcement at the reception of £150,000 funding to the women's fund for Scotland. That new and innovative idea from the Scottish Community Foundation and Engender will help develop that fund to provide access for women's organisations to funding to promote social welfare and well-being throughout many communities in Scotland.

A host of other events are taking place this week. The Secretary of State for Scotland, Helen Liddell, will be at Edinburgh Castle to host a celebration of the hidden heroines. Iain Gray will meet asylum seekers. Many of us will, of course, be working hard in our constituencies with women's organisations.

Johann Lamont asked that we continue our partnership working with women's organisations. We will do that this Saturday through the women in Scotland consultative forum, which will meet to determine women's priorities for the coming period.

The key part of international women's day is that it provides a focus on the need for the women's agenda and the key issues that we need to address. Women still have inequality in pay, are not represented in participating in public life and continue to suffer from domestic abuse and exclusion. We are determined to do all we can to address those issues.

As Elaine Smith said, the prevention of domestic abuse has been a key priority for the Scottish Executive. I can give Elaine Smith the reassurance that she was asking for: we understand that we have to embed the spectrum of male violence into our thinking about how we approach this matter. One of the first priorities of our national working group is to examine that factor. Such structural analysis will guide our work and help us to deliver on many of the aspects that we need to improve.

It is not possible in the time allocated here today to discuss all the work that is being done, but I take the opportunity to highlight some Scottish Executive initiatives that seek to address the difficulties facing women in our society. I was delighted to announce yesterday successful applications for the second round of funding under the domestic abuse service development fund. The Executive's advertising campaign is entering a new phase, reaching out to new audiences with the message that there is never an excuse for domestic abuse. I am pleased with the success of the helpline, which is averaging 500 calls per week, and of the website, which received 2,000 visits during the first month of the campaign. We are making progress on the prevention of domestic abuse but we accept that there is much to be done.

We are working in partnership with enterprise companies, employers and employees to close the pay gap between men and women, which stands at 17 per cent for hourly earnings but widens to as much as 45 per cent in some occupations. The gap is wider for older women and, for part-time workers, it is almost 40 per cent. If the pay gap continues to close at the current rate, women will not earn the same as men until 2036.

I inform Dorothy-Grace Elder that we are undertaking the audit that she referred to. Reducing the pay gap is an important priority for us. The situation has been allowed to remain stagnant for too long. Closing that gap is one of the major social changes that we need to bring about. It is about an end to low pay, alleviation of poverty for families and an end to the benefit trap and discrimination and segregation between women and men in the workplace. I am pleased that a close-the-gap co-ordinator has recently been appointed.

I have a variety of adverts for the work that the Scottish Executive continues to undertake. Many members have heard me go on about it endlessly before, so I will not focus on that. It is proper that we celebrate our many achievements. I will endlessly tell members about how successful the Scottish Executive is, but we should not be complacent.

We must understand the issues of discrimination more in a context of solidarity, as Rhona Brankin said, rather than in the somewhat ethnocentric approach of John Young. We must understand that there are many big agendas throughout the world. Nowhere in the world can women claim to have the same rights and opportunities as men. They continue to be among the poorest. The majority of the world's 1.3 billion absolute poor are women. Three quarters of the women over the age of 25 in much of Asia and Africa are illiterate. On average, women receive 30 per cent to 40 per cent less pay than men earn for the same work.

Everywhere, women continue to be the victims of violence. Rape and domestic violence are listed as significant causes of disability and death for women of reproductive age worldwide. In industrialised countries as well as in developing countries, women's political representation has lagged behind gains in other areas. Globally, women hold 14 per cent of seats in national legislative bodies, which is only slightly higher than a decade earlier.

We have much work to do. The UN had a 10-year commitment to try to tackle the inequality of women. Some have commented that the challenge is still with us. There was some comment at the end of those 10 years that, despite those years that had been devoted to bettering the lot of half of the world's population, the remarkable success stories coexist with blatant discrimination and huge advances are balanced by humiliating retreats. We can never be too complacent, nor can we be too self-congratulatory. We still have a big task in this and other countries to raise women's issues. The agenda is far from closed and equality is far from being achieved, but through solidarity and sisterhood, we can achieve a great deal more.

Meeting closed at 18:17.