Section 3 — Exception: retrieval and location

Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3 – in the Scottish Parliament at 4:00 pm on 13th February 2002.

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Amendment 67 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

Amendment 68 is grouped with amendments 70, 71, 98, 99, 72, 100 and 85. I point out that amendment 98 does not pre-empt amendment 99.

Photo of Fergus Ewing Fergus Ewing Scottish National Party

The purpose of amendment 68 is to leave out the word "seriously" from section 3(1)(c). The requirement should be that the person who is retrieving or is in charge of the retrieval or location of a wild mammal should have a reasonable belief that the mammal is injured. To state that the person must know that the animal is "seriously" injured introduces an additional hurdle and raises the question what the word "seriously" means. I think that that would be impossible to define.

Amendment 99 is similar to amendment 50, which was agreed to earlier—somewhat to my surprise—and provides that a person "takes reasonable steps", rather than "acts to ensure". That means that the person in charge of the retrieval or location of the mammal must take reasonable steps

"to ensure that the mammal, once located, is captured, treated or killed as humanely as possible in order to relieve its suffering".

It is not possible to act to "ensure" that that will happen. That is why I propose the phrase "reasonable steps", with which Scots law is well acquainted.

I move amendment 68.

Photo of Ross Finnie Ross Finnie Liberal Democrat

Executive amendments 70, 71, 72 and 85 amend the definition of "orphaned" to mean a fox whose mother is dead and which is too young to survive. As a consequence, amendments 70 and 72 remove references to "cub" and amendment 71 removes a reference to feeding. The amendments make the legislation more workable without altering the meaning agreed in committee.

We have no particular view on amendment 68, although it might add clarity. We believe that amendments 98 and 99 are alternatives. Of the two, we have consistently preferred the standard of "takes reasonable steps"; therefore we prefer amendment 99. We reject amendment 100.

Photo of Alex Fergusson Alex Fergusson Conservative

Amendment 100 aims to provide an important degree of flexibility so that orphaned fox cubs can be dispatched as quickly as possible. To deny a gamekeeper or any other pest control operative the right to finish off an unpleasant task as quickly as possible would increase cruelty—a subject that Mike Watson once declared to be the central point of the bill—and would force the operative to act in a way that was against his or her nature.

I have often said that there is no pleasant or nice way to die. Let us ensure that orphaned cubs get as quick and humane a death as possible by supporting amendment 68.

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

The error must have been on your part because your name was on my screen.

At this stage, I would have called Bristow Muldoon or Tricia Marwick to respond. As neither of them is present, I invite any of the other supporters of the bill to speak. Bristow Muldoon has returned to the chamber, so I offer him the opportunity to respond to the debate on the group of amendments.

Photo of Cathy Peattie Cathy Peattie Labour

If I was to take my lovely wee soft toy fox and pull it to bits, everyone here would be appalled, so why do people justify doing that to a live animal? Similar arguments apply to hare coursing and other barbaric country pursuits. The bill is meant to end that barbarism. The Rural Development Committee has done much to undermine the bill and today it is our job to rescue it.

I am happy to comment on the amendments on behalf of the MSPs who support the bill. First, I support the Executive amendments in the group and oppose all other amendments. The other amendments, like those in an earlier group, would weaken the bill.

It is worth reminding ourselves that the gamekeepers told the Rural Development Committee that the requirements that are being built into the bill are not as restrictive as their own code of conduct. If the gamekeepers are not asking for the rules to be relaxed, who is? I make the same point as I have made before: the Rural Development Committee was not minded to relax the humaneness requirements of the bill so I am not sure why we would want to do that now.

I ask members to bear in mind the words of the bard when he wrote about fox hunting and other forms of hunting:

"Tyrannic man's dominion;

The Sportsman's joy, the murd'ring cry,

The flutt'ring gory pinion!"

David Mundell talks about tradition; I think that it is time to end such a tradition and I ask every member to vote to end fox hunting in Scotland.

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

Before I move on, I stress to members that, of right, I call the minister and lead member. If other members are closing on a group of amendments in place of the lead member, it is important that they press their buttons.

The question is, that amendment 68 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

Division number 27

For: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Dr Winnie, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fergusson, Alex, Finnie, Ross, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Godman, Trish, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Gorrie, Donald, Grahame, Christine, Hamilton, Mr Duncan, Harding, Mr Keith, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hyslop, Fiona, Jenkins, Ian, Johnstone, Alex, Lyon, George, MacDonald, Ms Margo, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, Monteith, Mr Brian, Morgan, Alasdair, Mundell, David, Munro, John Farquhar, Neil, Alex, Paterson, Mr Gil, Quinan, Mr Lloyd, Radcliffe, Nora, Raffan, Mr Keith, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mr Mike, Russell, Michael, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, John, Smith, Iain, Smith, Mrs Margaret, Stevenson, Stewart, Stone, Mr Jamie, Swinney, Mr John, Wallace, Mr Jim, Wilson, Andrew
Against: Alexander, Ms Wendy, Baillie, Jackie, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Butler, Bill, Campbell, Colin, Canavan, Dennis, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Fabiani, Linda, Ferguson, Patricia, Fitzpatrick, Brian, Gibson, Mr Kenneth, Gillon, Karen, Grant, Rhoda, Gray, Iain, Harper, Robin, Henry, Hugh, Hughes, Janis, Ingram, Mr Adam, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, MacKay, Angus, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, Marwick, Tricia, Matheson, Michael, McAllion, Mr John, McCabe, Mr Tom, McConnell, Mr Jack, McGugan, Irene, McLeish, Henry, McLeod, Fiona, McMahon, Mr Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Robison, Shona, Scott, Tavish, Sheridan, Tommy, Simpson, Dr Richard, Smith, Elaine, Stephen, Nicol, Thomson, Elaine, Ullrich, Kay, Watson, Mike, Welsh, Mr Andrew, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan, Young, John
Abstentions: Reid, Mr George

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

The result of the division is: For 46, Against 72, Abstentions 1.

Amendment 68 disagreed to.

Amendments 69 to 71 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.

Amendment 98 not moved.

Amendment 99 moved—[Fergus Ewing].

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative 4:15 pm, 13th February 2002

The question is, that amendment 99 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

Division number 28

For: Adam, Brian, Aitken, Bill, Alexander, Ms Wendy, Baillie, Jackie, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Ms Margaret, Davidson, Mr David, Deacon, Susan, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Dr Winnie, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Ferguson, Patricia, Fergusson, Alex, Finnie, Ross, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Gillon, Karen, Godman, Trish, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Gorrie, Donald, Grahame, Christine, Gray, Iain, Hamilton, Mr Duncan, Harding, Mr Keith, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Jenkins, Ian, Johnstone, Alex, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lochhead, Richard, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, MacDonald, Ms Margo, MacKay, Angus, McConnell, Mr Jack, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNulty, Des, Monteith, Mr Brian, Morgan, Alasdair, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Mundell, David, Munro, John Farquhar, Murray, Dr Elaine, Neil, Alex, Oldfather, Irene, Paterson, Mr Gil, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Quinan, Mr Lloyd, Radcliffe, Nora, Raffan, Mr Keith, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mr Mike, Russell, Michael, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, John, Scott, Tavish, Simpson, Dr Richard, Smith, Iain, Smith, Mrs Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stevenson, Stewart, Stone, Mr Jamie, Swinney, Mr John, Thomson, Elaine, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan, Wilson, Andrew
Against: Barrie, Scott, Butler, Bill, Campbell, Colin, Canavan, Dennis, Crawford, Bruce, Fabiani, Linda, Fitzpatrick, Brian, Gibson, Mr Kenneth, Grant, Rhoda, Harper, Robin, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, Marwick, Tricia, Matheson, Michael, McAveety, Mr Frank, McGugan, Irene, McLeish, Henry, McLeod, Fiona, McNeill, Pauline, Robison, Shona, Sheridan, Tommy, Smith, Elaine, Sturgeon, Nicola, Ullrich, Kay, Welsh, Mr Andrew, Young, John
Abstentions: Muldoon, Bristow, Reid, Mr George

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

The result of the division is: For 86, Against 30, Abstentions 2.

Amendment 99 agreed to.

Amendment 72 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.

Amendment 100 moved—[Alex Fergusson].

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

The question is, that amendment 100 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members:

No.

Division number 29

For: Aitken, Bill, Davidson, Mr David, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Ewing, Dr Winnie, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fergusson, Alex, Fraser, Murdo, Gallie, Phil, Goldie, Miss Annabel, Grahame, Christine, Hamilton, Mr Duncan, Harding, Mr Keith, Johnstone, Alex, MacDonald, Ms Margo, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLetchie, David, Monteith, Mr Brian, Mundell, David, Munro, John Farquhar, Paterson, Mr Gil, Quinan, Mr Lloyd, Russell, Michael, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, John, Stevenson, Stewart, Ullrich, Kay, Wilson, Andrew
Against: Adam, Brian, Alexander, Ms Wendy, Baillie, Jackie, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Butler, Bill, Campbell, Colin, Canavan, Dennis, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Crawford, Bruce, Cunningham, Roseanna, Curran, Ms Margaret, Deacon, Susan, Fabiani, Linda, Ferguson, Patricia, Finnie, Ross, Fitzpatrick, Brian, Gibson, Mr Kenneth, Gillon, Karen, Godman, Trish, Gorrie, Donald, Grant, Rhoda, Gray, Iain, Harper, Robin, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hughes, Janis, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Jenkins, Ian, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lochhead, Richard, Lyon, George, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, MacKay, Angus, Maclean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, Marwick, Tricia, Matheson, Michael, McAllion, Mr John, McAveety, Mr Frank, McConnell, Mr Jack, McGugan, Irene, McLeish, Henry, McLeod, Fiona, McMahon, Mr Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Morgan, Alasdair, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Murray, Dr Elaine, Neil, Alex, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Radcliffe, Nora, Raffan, Mr Keith, Robison, Shona, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mr Mike, Scott, Tavish, Sheridan, Tommy, Simpson, Dr Richard, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Mrs Margaret, Stephen, Nicol, Stone, Mr Jamie, Sturgeon, Nicola, Swinney, Mr John, Thomson, Elaine, Wallace, Mr Jim, Watson, Mike, Welsh, Mr Andrew, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan, Young, John
Abstentions: Reid, Mr George

Photo of Murray Tosh Murray Tosh Conservative

The result of the division is: For 28, Against 91, Abstentions 1.

Amendment 100 disagreed to.