Standards in Scotland's Schools etc Bill: Stage 3 – in the Scottish Parliament at 5:15 pm on 7 June 2000.
Patricia Ferguson
Labour
5:15,
7 June 2000
We now move to Amendment 42, which is grouped with amendment 45.
Dennis Canavan
Independent
Since lodging Amendment 42, I have been informed that it has the support of the Educational Institute of Scotland, so I should perhaps declare an interest in that I am a member of the EIS. However, I make it clear that I do not receive any money from the EIS—indeed, any financial transactions are in the opposite direction by way of membership subscriptions.
Section 51 proposes to abolish the Scottish Joint Negotiating Committee, which was established under section 91 of the Education Act (Scotland) 1980. During the past 20 years, the SJNC has helped to bring about some significant improvements, including the establishment of maximum class sizes at a time when similar arrangements were unheard of in other parts of the United Kingdom.
The SJNC has the support of the main teachers' unions. It is not perfect, but it provides a statutory framework in which negotiations take place. It is not surprising that many teachers were very angry when the Scottish Executive took the unilateral decision to abolish the SJNC, which was an example of deplorable industrial relations.
The Scottish Executive is asking teachers and Parliament to buy a pig in a poke, because we do not know what will take the place of the SJNC. Last week, Professor McCrone's committee reported and recommended collective bargaining through a national bargaining committee. In some respects, that national bargaining committee might be rather similar to the SJNC, although it need not
The very least that the Scottish Executive could do is to keep the SJNC in existence until such time as the Executive produces proposals for a new negotiating mechanism. At present, the only mechanism that is available is the SJNC, and it would be foolhardy of the Scottish Executive and Parliament to abolish it.
This is a sensitive period for the teaching profession, the relations between teachers and their employers and the relations between teachers and the Scottish Executive. In the crucial weeks and months that lie ahead, teacher negotiations will dominate as the McCrone report is digested and acted upon. To abolish the only existing mechanism for negotiations would be not only foolish, but it could be provocative. Therefore, I appeal to the Executive to think again.
I move amendment 42.
Patricia Ferguson
Labour
I am afraid that the clock is against us once again. I am forced to move straight to the Minister.
Peter Peacock
Labour
Amendments 42 and 45 were debated and rejected by the Education, Culture and Sport Committee during stage 2 debate.
Section 51 removes the statutory basis of the SJNC, while leaving in place existing agreements—its effect is to abolish the SJNC. Abolition of the SJNC is necessary because it has patently failed teachers, parents and the pupils in our schools. The breakdown in negotiations over last year's millennium review demonstrates that the SJNC was incapable of modernising the terms and conditions of teachers and of giving us a teaching force that is able to deliver the improvements to education that we all want and need. The employers' side of the SJNC—half of the SJNC—agrees with our position.
The committee that we established under Professor McCrone has reported and has recommended a national bargaining authority that has no statutory authority and which is backed up by an independent body that would carry out three-yearly pay reviews. During the negotiations that will take place over the summer the question of future negotiating and pay machinery will be considered with the trade unions.
The McCrone recommendations require careful consideration and further discussion with employers' and teachers' representatives. The continued existence of the SJNC as a statutory body with responsibility for teachers' pay and conditions would seriously impede discussions on those and other recommendations in the McCrone
Patricia Ferguson
Labour
The question is, that Amendment 42 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Patricia Ferguson
Labour
There will be a Division.
Division number 11
For: Adam, Brian, Campbell, Colin, Canavan, Dennis, Cunningham, Roseanna, Elder, Dorothy-Grace, Ewing, Dr Winnie, Ewing, Fergus, Ewing, Mrs Margaret, Fabiani, Linda, Gibson, Mr Kenneth, Grahame, Christine, Hamilton, Mr Duncan, Harper, Robin, Hyslop, Fiona, Ingram, Mr Adam, Lochhead, Richard, MacAskill, Mr Kenny, Marwick, Tricia, Matheson, Michael, Morgan, Alasdair, Munro, Mr John, Neil, Alex, Paterson, Mr Gil, Reid, Mr George, Robison, Shona, Russell, Michael, Salmond, Mr Alex, Sheridan, Tommy, Sturgeon, Nicola, Swinney, Mr John, Ullrich, Kay, White, Ms Sandra, Wilson, Andrew
Against: Aitken, Bill, Alexander, Ms Wendy, Baillie, Jackie, Barrie, Scott, Boyack, Sarah, Brankin, Rhona, Brown, Robert, Chisholm, Malcolm, Craigie, Cathie, Curran, Ms Margaret, Davidson, Mr David, Deacon, Susan, Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James, Eadie, Helen, Fergusson, Alex, Finnie, Ross, Galbraith, Mr Sam, Gallie, Phil, Gillon, Karen, Godman, Trish, Gorrie, Donald, Grant, Rhoda, Gray, Iain, Harding, Mr Keith, Henry, Hugh, Home Robertson, Mr John, Hughes, Janis, Jackson, Dr Sylvia, Jackson, Gordon, Jamieson, Cathy, Jamieson, Margaret, Jenkins, Ian, Johnston, Nick, Johnstone, Alex, Kerr, Mr Andy, Lamont, Johann, Livingstone, Marilyn, Lyon, George, Macdonald, Lewis, Macintosh, Mr Kenneth, MacKay, Angus, MacLean, Kate, Macmillan, Maureen, Martin, Paul, McAllion, Mr John, McAveety, Mr Frank, McCabe, Mr Tom, McConnell, Mr Jack, McGrigor, Mr Jamie, McLeish, Henry, McLetchie, David, McMahon, Mr Michael, McNeil, Mr Duncan, McNeill, Pauline, McNulty, Des, Monteith, Mr Brian, Morrison, Mr Alasdair, Muldoon, Bristow, Mulligan, Mrs Mary, Mundell, David, Murray, Dr Elaine, Oldfather, Irene, Peacock, Peter, Peattie, Cathy, Radcliffe, Nora, Raffan, Mr Keith, Robson, Euan, Rumbles, Mr Mike, Scanlon, Mary, Scott, Tavish, Simpson, Dr Richard, Smith, Elaine, Smith, Iain, Smith, Margaret, Stone, Mr Jamie, Thomson, Elaine, Tosh, Mr Murray, Wallace, Ben, Wallace, Mr Jim, Whitefield, Karen, Wilson, Allan, Young, John
Abstentions: Watson, Mike
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
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The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
