The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

We'll move now to item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate on pensions, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move the motion.

Motion NDM8906 Heledd Fychan

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the significant and long-standing pensions injustices as a result of the inaction of successive UK Governments.

2. Recognises the work of campaign groups such as 1950’s women, former workers at Allied Steel and Wire, and members of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme.

3. Regrets the failure of the Labour UK Government:

a) to act on a previous Labour party commitment to compensate 1950s-born women in Wales affected by state pension changes;

b) to inflation-proof the pensions of former Allied Steel and Wire workers; and

c) to treat members of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme and miners’ pension scheme equally.

4. Regrets the failure of the Welsh Labour Government to make the case for action on these issues, despite their partnership in power, and calls on them to make representations to the UK Government to:

a) implement the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman's recommendations for 1950s Women;

b) uprate the pensions of former Allied Steel and Wire Workers in line with inflation; and

c) extend the Miners Pensions Scheme to include members of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. Justice is the basis of our debate today—justice for those who have suffered pension injustices, and who have seen subsequent Governments in Westminster refuse to rectify this injustice. I know that many of them are watching this debate today, some from the public gallery and others from home, and I would therefore like to start by paying tribute to all of them for the battle they have fought over many years now to try to secure what is owed to them. Plaid Cymru stands with you, and we support your efforts.

Three specific groups are central to this debate today. First, we have the 1950s Women of Wales group and others who are fighting for justice for those women born in the 1950s who have been affected by changes to the pension age, and who have faced hardship because of that without any warning, and without a way to plan for their retirement. Secondly, we have former coal miners who were under the pension fund of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme who are calling for the same justice as that afforded to the members of the miners pension scheme in October last year. And finally, we have former workers of Allied Steel and Wire, who have seen the value of their pensions erode for over two decades as a result of the failure of Westminster Governments to uprate them in line with inflation.

These three groups have one thing in common. The members of the campaigns are all individuals who have worked hard throughout their lives, and who deserve the basic right of stability in their retirement. They did nothing wrong, and it is a disgrace that in their retirement they have had to campaign for something that they should be entitled to.

Let no-one forget that political decisions are responsible for these injustices, and that political decisions can also provide redress for this. And that is why we are asking every Member of the Senedd today to support Plaid Cymru's motion unamended, so that we can unite as a Senedd in demonstrating our support and demanding action from the UK Labour Government.

After all, it was the Blair Government that made the decision in 2002 to only secure 90 per cent of the value of the pensions of Allied Steel and Wire workers after their employer went bankrupt, and not to uprate this percentage in line with inflation for nearly three decades. And while the current Government is committed to rectifying the long-standing injustice regarding the pensions of members of the miners pension scheme, something that we very much welcome, the lack of consideration regarding members of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme is something that we should all condemn.

And as for the women of the 1950s, they have had their hopes raised and then dashed so many times. They were full of hope that the injustice would be rectified by the current UK Government, after many leading members of the Government, including Keir Starmer and Liz Kendall, were so ready to support them before they took power. Indeed, leading politicians here in Wales, including our First Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales, pledged that the Labour Government would rectify this injustice. But it seems that some are willing to say one thing when they're in Opposition, but act very differently when they're in power. And who suffers? Older people who should be supported during the final years of their lives, following a lifetime of service.

Of course, it isn't only the injustices that I have already cited that affect them either. What about the changes made to the winter fuel payment, which are putting the lives of older people at risk? Maybe there will be a u-turn, according to today's headlines, but there's been no confirmation yet of the details. And we know how much concern there has been among older people because of that announcement. It should shame those who have been in power that one in six older people in Wales is living in poverty, which is difficult to understand when others live such extravagant lives.

As I said when opening the debate, justice is at the heart of our motion, justice for thousands of people living here in Wales who have been let down by a system that should be supporting them so that they can enjoy a fair and stable retirement, something I'm sure we all want. Unfortunately, we know about so many people who have died while still battling, having had to spend the final years of their lives, sometimes very ill, having to battle for justice. So, I'm asking Members of the Senedd today to support our motion and let us reaffirm our support for those who are fighting for justice and demand action to rectify the situation from the UK Government.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

I have selected the Amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Delete points 3 and 4 and replace with:

Welcomes the recent reforms made by the UK Government to the Mineworkers’ Pension Scheme, including the return of the investment reserve fund and the resulting increase in pension payments to former mineworkers.

Notes that the Welsh Government has consistently raised concerns about pension injustices with successive UK Governments, and continues to advocate on behalf of:

a) Allied Steel and Wire pensioners;

b) women born in the 1950s affected by changes to the state pension age; and

c) members of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme.

Amendment 1 moved.

Move.

Well, thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to Plaid Cymru for laying the motion of the debate in front of us here today. And we join the party of Plaid Cymru on these benches in recognising the frustration felt by many pensioners in Wales, as outlined by the motion. The issues raised today span several decades and Governments, and it's right that all parties strive for fair outcomes.

I'd like to open my contribution on the plight of WASPI women, and also declare that my mum is one of those people affected in this category. It was just before the election last year, wasn't it, that the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman issued its findings on the matter. The UK Labour Government responded in December just gone, with work and pensions Secretary Liz Kendall saying that she did not agree with the findings on the issue for WASPI women. And the hypocrisy of the Labour Party on the WASPI question is quite remarkable. In Opposition, a glut of senior Labour figures lined up to profess their support for compensating WASPI women. Prime Minister Keir Starmer called the situation 'a huge injustice'. Foreign Secretary David Lammy slammed the 'cliff edge', he said, that faced WASPI women. Home Secretary Yvette Cooper said she was

'fighting for a fair deal for the WASPI women'. 

Chancellor Rachel Reeves claimed to 'want justice for WASPI women'. Welsh Secretary Jo Stevens stated that she was

'proud that a UK Labour Government will end the historic pension injustice for 1950s women.'

The First Minister, Eluned Morgan, confidently stated that a Labour Government at Westminster would 'put this right'.

But, as we see now, it's complete rubbish. Labour happily said one thing in opposition, before doing a screeching 180 and reneging on their promises once in Government. All those smiley photos of Labour MPs and candidates with signs supporting the WASPI women were clearly worth nothing. I'm sure people will think twice before trusting the Labour Party on this again.

So they should.

Not only that, but, yet again, Welsh Labour have completely failed to use their voice in Government to make representations. They claim to be standing up for workers and pensioners, but when they are in a room with power they keep quiet. Frankly, Keir Starmer doesn't seem bothered what the Welsh Government have to say and Eluned Morgan doesn't seem to be able to influence things with him anyway. And today, again, we heard, as referenced by Heledd Fychan, Prime Minister Starmer all over the shop again, when he says he'll 'look' at the disastrous winter fuel payments for pensioners—no commitment from him, no certainty, no idea.

Then we come to Plaid Cymru, who have submitted the motion today, and I applaud them for pointing the finger at UK and Welsh Labour Government's failings. But my concern is that, if possible, Plaid might be in an even worse position than Labour when it comes to pension finances. Plaid Cymru's pursuit of independence relies on fantasy economics that would impoverish the people of Wales. If Plaid Cymru get their way, independence would blow a hole in the pension protections that people in Wales rely on. The truth is clear: pensions are underwritten by the strength of the British economy and guarantees from the UK Government. If that's torn up, as Plaid wants, you plunge the pensions of the Welsh people into real uncertainty and crisis. That's not justice, that's recklessness.

Pensions deserve a serious approach, not Labour's pretend outrage or Plaid's constitutional vandalism. Welsh people deserve, at either end of the M4, Governments that are focused on delivering for the people of Wales, not focused on rewriting history or gambling with the future. The previous UK Conservative Government took great strides in protecting the pensions of hard-working people across Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. The triple lock, implemented by Conservatives, ensures that pensioners can have security in old age after long working lives—particularly important for our citizens on lower incomes—and the triple lock works in protecting them.

Before the General Election campaign, there was a further promise of a tax-free pension allowance, with the triple lock plus. It's the Conservatives that have genuinely protected pensioners from tough economic headwinds, giving them dignity and financial security in old age. The record's clear: you can't trust Labour and you can't trust Plaid Cymru with pensions. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well said, Sam Rowlands.

Our motion today lists several examples of pension injustice, but one of them, however, is also an example of gender discrimination and the failure to rectify this injustice is another example of gender-based discrimination and shameful unfairness. 

The Government's Amendment, I think, speaks volumes once again about their lack of influence and indeed, their reluctance to call on their alleged partners in Westminster to behave in a principled and just manner. Once again, the Welsh Labour Government was willing to express its disappointment with the Conservatives' lack of action on this, willing enough to attend the protests by women who were treated unfairly and willing enough to hold the placards, deliver the speeches, but when they came to power in Westminster—. Well, it's a familiar story by now, isn't it? They've changed their tune.

I want to set out in my contribution why the case of women born in the 1950s who were unfairly affected by the changes in the state pension age is one that is based in gender inequality, an inequality that the Westminster Labour Government could rectify and should rectify, and the Welsh Labour Government should demand that they rectify for the benefit of the women of Wales.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the local groups in our constituencies that have been campaigning so hard and so long for justice. In a public meeting I called in Swansea last year with Pension Justice for Swansea Women, we heard that around 15,000 women are believed to be impacted in the Swansea region alone. We heard about women who have to continue to work, often in physically demanding jobs, such as cleaning, caring, stacking shelves in supermarkets, way beyond the age any of them expected to be needing to do so, women who had to sell their homes because they can no longer afford to maintain them, women who are sleeping in their cars or sofa surfing until the council can rehouse them.

As this motion outlines, the failure to act on these injustices is part of a wider pattern, because the case of the 1950s women stands out as a particularly stark example of how successive UK Governments have failed women. It also represents a broader failure to uphold international commitments. Under CEDAW, the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, the UK Government has a duty to ensure full equality for women, including economic and social rights. The way these changes were implemented, and the refusal to provide fair compensation, flies in the face of these obligations.

And what's even more galling for many of these women is that Labour once stood with them. But, since then, those promises have been disappointingly dropped, with the Chancellor Rachel Reeves even going so far as saying that acknowledging their claims would represent a misuse of taxpayers' money, even though the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman's report found that these women have been disproportionately affected by UK Government policies, and failure to act on such an report is almost unheard of.

In responding to that scandalous and disappointing decision, experts on gender equality underline the importance of seeing this through the prism of systemic inequalities in women's working lives, which contribute to the gender pay gap and have a direct impact on the gender pension gap. Nineteen. That's the number of years, on average, that a woman has to work longer than a man to accumulate the same level of pension wealth, according to the 'Gender Pensions Gap' report published by NOW: Pensions last year.

We're very familiar in Wales, unfortunately, with the work barriers linked to gender, especially in terms of caring duties, which have a long-term impact on women's financial situation, including their state pension. The situation, of course, was much worse in terms of women born in the 1950s in terms of career opportunities, lack of equal pay, and social attitudes towards work and the role of women. For these women, these systemic issues, along with the way in which the equalisation of the state pension age was implemented, have robbed many women of the opportunity to accumulate an adequate level of pension income, and have exacerbated inequalities that they have experienced throughout their lives.

These women are not asking for special treatment or for charity. They're asking for justice—the justice that they deserve. Plaid Cymru's position has never changed. We call on the Welsh Government to do the same, not just in word, but in deed: to stand with the women born in the 1950s and call on its sister Labour Government in Westminster to rectify this injustice.

'All I want is what I paid for, my pension.'

These are the reasonable words of John Benson, who's sitting behind me in the public gallery. All he wants is what he paid for. For that, he has become a tireless campaigner for nearly a quarter of a century to try and right this miscarriage of justice against himself and against many other working-class families. John Benson, Phil Jones, and others behind us, should be enjoying their retirement, spending time with loved ones, and resting after a lifetime of hard and dangerous work. Yet the last 23 years have meant financial hardship, taking on seasonal work long after retirement age, and a never-ending fight for what they are owed. They have visited many colleagues on their death beds, colleagues who have begged them to keep on the fight, colleagues who didn't know whether their loved ones would be able to pay for their funeral or stay in the family home. They have been ignored and insulted by countless Governments of various political colours—Labour, Tory and Lib Dems—told off by politicians for the tone of their e-mails; told off by people who have no idea of the hardship they have lived, and I'm sure wouldn't be able to cope themselves if their pension was taken away.

Since the campaign started, 14 different UK pension Ministers have been appointed, with none of them able or maybe even willing to help repay what these workers and their families rightly deserve. The closest they came was in 2005, when the financial assistance scheme was established by the then UK Government to help those who had been affected by pension failures between 1997 and 2005. But the scandal is, that only covered 90 per cent of the pension value, it didn't account for inflation at all, or any pension accrued before 1997. For many pensioners, like Phil Jones behind me, that 90 per cent figure has now dropped to 50 per cent—half its value. It's absolutely unbelievable. The injustice is obvious. Everybody I talk to about this clearly sees the injustice, but it remains. Maybe the same should be applied to UK Ministers. Maybe that should happen to their pension, because I'm confident we would see legislation passed in Westminster very quickly if that happened to their pensions.

Of the 140,000 pensioners within the scheme, over 40,000 have already passed away—40,000—with many of them not seeing a single penny of the pensions they trustingly paid, and even worse were encouraged to pay into. My late father was fully supportive of ASW workers. He knew many of them, he went to school with them, he played with them. Unfortunately, the miscarriage of justice has outlasted him, and it's outlasted his friends at ASW. It's simply not good enough that this has gone on for a quarter of a century. It's not fair that, due to the passage of time, the campaigning now falls on the shoulders of fewer and fewer people because of death and illness.

But John, Phil and the rest of the campaigners have never given up. In January this year, I joined them for a meeting in London with the newest pension Minister, Torsten Bell, and with Torsten Bell we had very warm words from him, we had plenty of smiles, we had some condescending comments, and then nothing. Nothing at all. They are still waiting for the injustice to be righted. My office has started a petition, calling on the UK Government to take action and to pay these men what they are rightly owed. Every Member has been sent that petition a few weeks ago, but perhaps I can resend it again after this debate, and I urge you all to sign it and share it on your social media. I'm grateful to Mark Isherwood and Natasha Asghar for already sharing it on their social media.

Whatever is said here today, and whatever the action the UK Government may or may not decide to take, one thing is undeniable: John, Phil and all the others behind me today are not going away. They will not stop fighting for the pensions that they deserve, and it's up to us here today to stand beside them and to amplify their voice. Diolch yn fawr.

The overarching point I think we need to remember when talking about all of these pension injustices is that pensions aren't a bonus, they are a deferred salary, built on an expectation that people will receive security and support when the time comes for them to retire. Now, I declare an interest as well. When it comes to 1950s women, like Sam, my mother is affected by that change.

Women born in the 1950s have been betrayed by those in power. They were lied to. They were told that Labour in Westminster would do the right thing, like the Tories before them, and ensure that women would be paid the money that they were owed, once they came into power. They have reneged on that promise and have shown, I'm afraid, that their conscience only extends so far as is convenient for them. They've stopped seeing this injustice as something that demands redress. We in Plaid Cymru will not abandon these women—women who are tired of waiting for justice to be done, tired of waiting for the money they are owed. So many women have died without being paid that money. Shame on UK Labour for breaking their word.

We need a public inquiry, we need to see mediation, and we need those women's voices to be heard until they echo in every chamber in Whitehall and Westminster. They cannot be silenced any longer. We know the ombudsman's investigation was flawed. Department for Work and Pensions' Ministers have a duty to attend mediation, but the most recent request for mediation sent by the 1950s Women of Wales group and other campaigners, who have worked tirelessly on this issue, was met only with an acknowledgement of receipt of their message. I'm afraid it rings similarly to what Rhys ab Owen has just been talking to us about with the Allied Steel and Wire workers. I would pay tribute to the many groups in this issue of the women, and in the other issues that we are highlighting too, who have campaigned, who have trusted time and again that this time things would be different. It's vital that their voices be heard by those in power and that representatives on their behalf be part of discussions with the UK Government through mediation.

Now, with the 1950s women, I know some groups have petitioned for alternative dispute resolution, for financial redress focused on both proven discrimination and full maladministration. Another group, CEDAWinLAW, have provided evidence of the state's statutory obligations under UK and international Laws. I know they would want to know whether the Government here supports those calls for mediation. Many groups have also called for a full public inquiry, just as the sub-postmasters have been given. If only an ITV drama could be made of all of these injustices, but we shouldn't have to wait for broadcasters to tell the Government what they should be doing, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Our motion also focuses on miners' pensions, which is another issue many brave people have campaigned on. Former miners are still waiting for justice with their pensions. The miners' pension scheme has a slogan that cuts to the heart of that bitter injustice: 'With the last breath of broken men.' These men were crippled by their labour, left with poisoned lungs, and still the state and Westminster have found ways of denying them what they are owed. Former miners were promised justice for their pensions by Labour last year, but there was no mention of the British Coal staff superannuation scheme, which includes ex-miners. And Westminster is now dragging its feet. It won't tell them if they will get their money too, whilst all the while more and more miners are dying every year of respiratory conditions and the aftermath of the dust that clogged their lungs. It should not take that last breath of men or women to demand that justice be done.

I would pay tribute here to the many campaigners, and to the much missed Steffan Lewis, with whom I share my seat in spirit, for all his work on that campaign. Dirprwy Lywydd, with 1950s-born women, with miners, with Allied Steel and Wire workers, these are issues that demand redress. I know that the Government here doesn't like us using that word 'demand', but we must demand that Westminster tries more than just their patience. They must do what is right and pay these people what they were promised.

The coal beneath Welsh soil powered Britain's rise. When nationalisation came in 1947, we had 250 working collieries across Wales. Each one represented countless lives shortened by dust, by danger, by sacrifice. Then, when British Coal was privatised in 1994, the Government set up pension arrangements that allowed them to take half of any surplus. They promised this was in exchange for guaranteeing the pensions if investments underperformed. Now, here are the cold, hard facts. Since then, the Treasury has taken £3.1 billion from the British Coal staff superannuation scheme. They plan to take another £1.9 billion by 2033. And how much have they put in? Not a single penny. The guarantee has cost them nothing. Meanwhile, the scheme still holds £2.3 billion in reserves—money that rightfully belongs to the 45,000 members and beneficiaries, including more than 4,000 here in Wales. The most damning statistic is this: the average age of those scheme members is 76, and six members die, on average, every single day. That's nearly 2,200 deaths every year—people who, as the numbers rise, will continue to be denied justice if we don't act. 

Last autumn, the Government finally acknowledged this injustice for the mine workers' pension scheme. They transferred the £1.5 billion investment reserve, giving 112,000 former miners an average 32 per cent increase in their pension. But what about the staff scheme members? They weren't just administrative employees working in distant offices, they were the surveyors who made sure roofs wouldn't collapse, the electricians who kept ventilation systems working when gas built up, the safety officers who reduced fatalities. Many started underground before moving into these specialised roles through experience and training. They breathed the same dust, they faced the same dangers, they lived in the same communities and now they're being told that they don't deserve the same justice.

The industry Minister has met with trustees and spoke about resolving the issue, but with no firm commitment and no timeline these are just empty words. Every day of delay means that six more scheme members will never see justice. Whether by design or bureaucratic indifference, the effect is the same: fewer and fewer beneficiaries as time passes and less cost to the Treasury in consequence.

I've spent years representing these workers, I've sat in their homes and heard their stories—proud men and women who never ask for charity, just for what they or their partners earned through decades of service. Now they're choosing between heating and eating, while the Treasury sits on billions that rightfully belong to them. Transferring the £2.3 billion reserve would boost pensions by approximately 50 per cent. This isn't money for luxuries, it's for basic dignity, for proper food, for keeping warm in winter, for small comforts in old age. And let's be clear, that money wouldn't disappear into offshore accounts, it would be spent in our communities, in our shops, in our local economies still struggling from the devastation of pit closures.

So, I'm calling on the Welsh Government to show true leadership, use every lever at your disposal—formal channels, the authority of this Chamber and the moral force of a nation built on coal—to demand that that full £2.3 billion is transferred immediately. I say in this Chamber and through us to Westminster: return what was taken, fulfil the debt that is owed, honour these workers now while they still draw breath to feel the difference. Justice delayed is not merely justice denied, it is justice forever lost for every scheme member who dies waiting for what is rightfully theirs. The time for words is over, the time for pension justice is now. 

My contribution today will be focusing on the injustice faced by ex-workers of Allied Steel and Wire. I'd like to start by acknowledging the hard work and tireless campaigning by the ex-workers of Allied Steel and Wire, a number of whom are in the gallery today. They've fought continuously for justice, and not just for themselves but their peers. Plaid Cymru stands with you and supports you. 

This motion today is not just figures on a spreadsheet, it's about broken promises and stolen livelihoods, a moral failure by successive UK Governments and silence from Welsh Government to use their partnership in power to correct the injustice. Allied Steel and Wire workers paid in, they were promised their pensions. Their pensions are not bonuses, they are deferred salary—contributions made by employees over a number of years in return for the expectation of retirement security. And now they are being punished, year after year, by a slow erosion of their pensions because they are not linked to inflation. This is theft in slow motion. And, as we've heard, the tireless campaigner John Benson is in the gallery, and he's kindly shared his story with me, and I'd like to share some parts of it with you today, in his own words. 

'It put me on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and at one point I thought I could go over the edge. After all those years working in heavy industry, noise from electric arc furnaces, dust, fumes, unsociable hours, I had nothing to look forward to. I should have retired at 65, but had to work till I was 67, as 41 years in heavy industry was taking its toll on my body. During those years, after we lost our jobs and pensions, we decided to fight this terrible, inhumane injustice, organising protests all over the UK, London, Cardiff, party conferences. We held a banner at the entrance to the European courts in Luxembourg, where the trade unions took our case to them. I thought I would have to sell my house. At one point, I thought I would lose my marriage fighting this campaign, as it took over my life. How could politicians who we put our trust in treat workers with so much unfairness and contempt? Luckily, my wife stuck by me, and I'm sure there are more worrying cases than mine. 

'A former work colleague of mine—we both started work together in the steelworks in July 1961, both lost our jobs together in July 2002, travelled to work and back together for 26 years—sadly passed away 15 years ago, aged 59, never married, and never saw a penny of the pension he had paid into for all those years. After all these long and stressful years, we have been fighting this inhumane pension injustice. Under new leadership and with a fresh frontbench, Labour in Westminster have given us hope that all those sacrifices we had made in the past 19 years may be worth it, not just for ourselves but for those innocent victims.'

I think you'll agree that John's account is a powerful one, and conveys the injustice that he and other colleagues went through. This is why we are holding this debate and calling on this Government to play its part. It's not enough just to raise concerns; the Welsh Government needs to demand action. If they can find their voice in the Government amendments to our motion to praise the UK Government on pension reform, then they can find their spine to stand up for ASW workers and others in Wales. Whether it's 1950s women, ASW steelworkers, or British Coal staff, these are people who played by the rules. They were let down not just by policy but by politicians who promised to protect them. We in Plaid Cymru will not let that silence continue. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank all Members for their contributions to this important debate this afternoon?

I welcome the opportunity to debate this motion on pensions, in particular the 1950s women affected by changes to the state pension age, former workers at Allied Steel and Wire, and members of the mineworkers' pension scheme and British Coal staff superannuation scheme. These groups have shown remarkable resilience and determination in their quest for justice, in raising awareness and in advocating for reforms. Their work continues to be instrumental. I recognise and pay tribute to their dedication, their persistence and advocacy on behalf of thousands of pensioners.

While we can agree with points 1 and 2 of the motion tabled today, we have tabled an Amendment to points 3 and 4, because these injustices we are debating today are years in the making. They did not begin on Thursday 4 July 2024; they are part of a legacy left by the previous UK Government and years of inaction cannot be fixed within 10 months. We have seen progress—

Will you take an Intervention?

I've just started, but I will.

Thank you very much. I referenced what happened under Tony Blair, so it is consecutive UK Governments, both Labour and Conservative.

Thank you for that. If I can make progress, Chair. As I say, the new UK Government cannot fix in 10 months, but we have seen progress and we should recognise and welcome that. Specifically, the reforms made to the mineworkers' pension scheme, including the return on the investment reserve fund, has resulted in increased pension payments to former mineworkers. I know these changes are a welcome relief for those who have long awaited fair treatment.

The mineworkers' pension scheme is of particular significance to many communities in Wales, and it's an issue on which the Welsh Government made representations to previous UK Governments. I welcome, and the Senedd should welcome, the action taken by the UK Government to fulfil its manifesto promise by transferring the £1.5 billion investment reserve fund back to scheme members. The impact of that change is significant. It means a 32 per cent increase to the annual pensions of over 100,000 former mineworkers across the UK, an average increase of £29 per week for each member. 

We have consistently raised our concerns about pensions injustices with successive UK Governments, and we will continue to do so. The red Welsh way means we put our values and the interests of the people of Wales first, regardless of which party occupies No. 10. In relation to Allied Steel and Wire pensions, we have called out that these pensions are not a gift. They are a deferred salary, and the contributions were made in good faith by ASW workers, in the expectation that they would receive security in retirement.

I want to pay particular tribute to the contribution of Rhys ab Owen this afternoon, and his late father, for the campaigning work he does with ASW campaigners, particularly John and Phil. The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and I have met them in the Minister's personal Constituency capacity. These workers have worked hard and, as John Benson says, they paid in and they made provision for their retirement. But, as we have heard, they have seen the purchasing power of their pensions eroded by inflation.

We have urged the UK Government to take the necessary steps to ensure the pensions of former ASW workers are indexed to inflation to preserve their value over time. We also recognise that, although the recent reforms to the mineworkers' pension scheme are an important step, British Coal staff superannuation scheme members have experienced a similar injustice and history. We know that there has been some engagement between campaigners and the UK Government, but we do urge the UK Government to commit to a fair and transparent review of the scheme's surplus and its potential distribution.

As constituency Members, we will all recognise how changes to the state pension age have disproportionately affected women born in the 1950s. They have found themselves facing unexpected delays in receiving their pensions and experienced financial strain and uncertainty. I know that since the UK Government came into office, they have seriously considered the complex issues raised by the ombudsman's report, including information they were not able to see before they were in Government. As the Welsh Government, we have always been clear that speeding up changes to the state pension age for women without much notice was wrong. We are concerned about that impact, and we have been very clear with the UK Government about this.

State, personal and occupational pensions are a reserved matter. We do not have the powers, either legally or financially, to provide redress to those who are experiencing pensions injustice. However, we do recognise the impacts on the welfare and well-being of these pensioners and their families. These are long-standing issues, and they are part of a challenging legacy inherited by the new UK Government. But we've been far from silent on these matters, and we will continue to advocate for change and for meaningful action that secures a fair and secure future for all. Diolch.

I call on Heledd Fychan to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. That was a valiant defence by the Minister of the UK Labour Government. 'Red Welsh way' doesn't mean much if it's just defending the indefensible, because we have to acknowledge it's decades in the making. This is not something that's happened under the UK Conservative Government of recent years. As I illustrated, Tony Blair himself had a key role to play here. So, I think we have a duty to unite as a Senedd to represent our constituents.

Whilst not condoning the issues with the Conservative Government, because I also supported the cause then, do you recognise that, due to the actions by Gordon Brown in 1997, when he abolished tax credits on dividends, the tax rate on pensions has cost pension funds now in excess of £250 billion across the UK?

And that’s why I think we need to admit mistakes made by consecutive UK Governments. This is not apportioning blame to one party solely, and that’s why I’m disappointed by the Minister’s response.

I do think we’ve heard so eloquently and powerfully today why this matters—the casework that we receive, the individuals behind each of these cases, whom we’ve all met. And I thank those of you who have shared your stories and also shared your experiences of campaigning on this issue.

I do really appreciate everyone who has contributed to today’s debate. The injustices are evident. I also think we should remember all those who’ve died without this wrong being put right, who spent the last years of their lives campaigning and struggling to make ends meet, making those difficult choices, or just not able to afford the basics in life.

Sam Rowlands, I welcome your support for the motion. It was a valiant effort to justify the wrecking ball of the Tory Government and gloss over the fact that the Tories could’ve put this right as well. Accountability and responsibility are things that all of us should reflect on. In terms of Sam and Delyth sharing the stories of your own mothers, yes, many of us will know people who’ve been impacted in our own families. This has been far-reaching in all of our communities.

Sioned, in terms of the gender discrimination, it is extremely important that we do remember what has impacted beyond simply the pension issue, the impact on women, and it's crucial that that is put right.

Rhys, I know that you have long campaigned on the issue of Allied Steel and Wire. What you said about John Benson, I would like to endorse those remarks, and thank you for your campaigning, as well as your father's campaigning. It's important that we remember everyone who's been involved in this important campaign. The issue of justice is something that should unite us across this Chamber. It is not a party political issue. It is a responsibility on us all to put that right.

Delyth, you were entirely right:

‘A pension is not a bonus—they are a deferred salary.'

That's certainly the case. I would also like to echo what you said about Steffan Lewis, who campaigned on these issues. There are many people who have gone before us who have campaigned hard, and I want to echo my thanks to everyone who's been involved in this.

Adam, in terms of the industrial past and sacrifice of our communities, it's important to recognise the sacrifice that was made. No-one should have to choose between heating or eating. The irony of the fact that they were working in the coal industry and had to make that choice cannot be lost. This is about basic dignity, and I agree, showing true leadership is what we're calling for today, and for the Welsh Government not just to advocate, but to use every lever, every possible avenue to right this wrong.

Peredur, you shared John Benson's words—I'm sure John would like to jump into this Chamber from across the back there and actually speak those words himself. I'd echo those tributes to you, and your powerful testimony, as well, about the toll it takes to campaign for what's rightfully yours. You should never have to do that, but I pay tribute to you and all others who have done so.

In closing, I would just like to remind all of us that this debate is about standing shoulder to shoulder with those who've suffered pension injustices, whom each of us here in this Senedd have been elected to represent. It is about calling on our Government here in Wales to make further and stronger representations to their Labour colleagues in Westminster to take action.

If the red Welsh way means something, prove it. If the partnership in power means anything, prove it. It is about calling on everyone to do everything possible, and that's why I was hoping that we could unite and support the motion. But more than anything, I hope the Labour UK Government will listen to not just the Senedd, but the millions of people across the UK who've been denied justice to date. And to all campaigners, I would like to end by saying this: your fight matters to us. We believe you have been treated unfairly. You deserve justice.

The proposal is to agree the motion without Amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will, therefore, defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed immediately to voting time.