The next item, therefore, will be the statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the flood and coastal erosion risk management programme 2025-26. Huw Irranca-Davies to make the statement.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I am very pleased to announce the flood and coastal erosion risk management programme for 2025-26. For the last two years, we have made over £75 million available to lead flood risk management authorities, the RMAs, right across Wales. This year, we will do the same again at £77 million, our highest ever level of investment, as we continue to deliver against our programme for government commitment to reduce flood risk to over 45,000 properties.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

However, this winter showed us, yet again, the harsh reality of climate change. I need not remind Members of the impact of storm Bert in November, which affected more than 700 properties across Wales, nor the destruction that followed storm Darragh in December.

The First Minister and I were very glad to confirm the £500 and £1,000 grants for affected households through the emergency financial assistance scheme, and I very much welcome the opportunity to bring key agencies and responders together following those storms to reflect on what worked and the lessons learnt. In early January, I also confirmed up to a further £8.1 million capital funding to RMAs to undertake emergency repair work.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is what delivery looks like in a crisis: rapid, practical support, when people need it most. These events reinforce how our flood programme must be, and indeed is: robust to deliver both a planned pipeline of works and to manage the demands of any required emergency response. I will shortly outline how we are delivering again this year. But first, however, I think it's important to pay tribute to the RMAs who continue their work, day in, day out, to help us reduce flood risk in the face of significant challenge. Our local authorities and Natural Resources Wales continue to develop new and construct defences, provide warnings, respond to incidents and maintain vast numbers of assets, often hidden assets, right across Wales. In fact, the success of flood risk management so often is what we don’t see, both in minimising the flood incidents themselves, and often through invisible infrastructure and tools. This could be an underground culvert, a small grass embankment in a park, or a swale by a road. Every single asset requires investment, monitoring and maintenance. This does not happen by chance; it’s because we continue to make it a priority, and we fund it, and risk management authorities continue their tireless work.

Over the last year, indeed, our risk management authorities have made real achievements, supported by Welsh Government funding. Take, for example, NRW’s £6 million scheme in Ammanford, which the First Minister and I were delighted to officially open back in September. The scheme was designed with climate change in mind, it futureproofs over 380 properties against the risk of flooding. And then there’s the Hirael bay coastal defence scheme, which I had the pleasure of opening last May.  The scheme is reducing the risk of coastal flooding to 186 homes and eight businesses, whilst also simultaneously rejuvenating the promenade and providing active travel routes for the local community and visitors. We also saw the construction of the final three schemes under the coastal risk management programme. We are investing £14.1 million in Kinmel Bay, £3.4 million in Llandudno, and £3.4 million in Barmouth viaduct gardens. This programme has now seen £291 million of investment from the Welsh Government over five years, and once all the schemes are complete they will benefit almost 14,000 homes and businesses.

And all of these schemes bring wider benefits to communities, including, by the way, job opportunities. For example, the central Rhyl coastal risk management scheme alone provided opportunities for seven apprenticeships and two graduate trainees. And during my recent visit to the £26.8 million coastal scheme in Aberaeron, I met apprentices who are actively involved in learning and developing skills and approaches to ensure sustainable construction methods. The construction company also visited local schools to raise awareness and encourage students to become our future civil engineers.

And, of course, there’s more work taking place that will benefit communities right across Wales. For example, I recently visited NRW’s Stephenson Street scheme in Newport. This flagship £21 million scheme, which is due for completion in early summer, will benefit an estimated 2,000 homes and businesses—2,000 homes and businesses. It is the largest scheme ever constructed by NRW, and I have to say I was also impressed by their innovative approach. For example, Dirprwy Lywydd, NRW used low-carbon steel for the 700m of sheet piling that the scheme required. They saved over 350 tonnes of CO2. These were installed using a silent sheet piler, which reduced noise and disruption to local people and businesses and, by the way, the wildlife as well.

But, that said, the success of our flood programme does not lie simply with major capital construction projects. Warning and informing are pivotal in ensuring communities are prepared to act. Back in July 2024, NRW launched their new flood warning information service for Wales, which received almost £6 million of Welsh Government funding. This was a business-critical capital investment project, which has enabled them to provide a service tailored to the needs of people in Wales. The new service has delivered improvements to warning message content and efficiencies that lessen the pressure on the duty officers during flood events, allowing them to focus on the big risks. And it also addresses learning from the floods in February 2020. Since it was launched back in July 2024, the new flood warning service has issued 553 flood alerts, 197 flood warnings and two severe flood warnings, and these alerts and warnings have been sent to over 42,000 customers.

This year, with our record levels of spending, we are investing £36 million in capital funding, which includes £22 million for NRW and £14 million for local authorities. So, we are funding flood alleviation schemes right across Wales, such as Bontnewydd in Gwynedd, Pentre in RCT, Gurnos in Powys, and Havens Head in Pembrokeshire. And, in addition, we will allocate over £24 million in revenue to NRW and nearly £16 million to our local authorities, including £11 million to support the continued construction of schemes under the coastal risk management programme.

And as we know, as well as building hard defences, working with nature is crucial in helping to keep our communities safe from flooding. An example of this is Caerphilly County Borough Council’s Parc Cwm Darren scheme, which involved planting 18,000 trees over 2.6 hectares to boost carbon sequestration, improve the soil health and slow the flow of the Nant Bargoed and Rhymney rivers. Now, moving forward, we’re investing an additional £2 million to support 23 similar projects across Wales, aimed at enhancing the natural environment and reducing flood risk for up to 2,800 properties.

This Welsh Labour Government is, and will continue to be, committed to helping keep communities safe from flooding. We're backing our words with record investment and tangible action to protect communities right across Wales, from Rhyl to Milford Haven and Newport. When we make promises, we deliver on them, and the communities we that serve can see the difference.

This is what, Dirprwy Lywydd, a delivering Government looks like. We don't just talk about climate resilience, we build it. We don't just sympathise with flood victims, we help them recover. And we don't just plan for the future, we secure the future. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today. The capital projects that are undertaken by RMAs are intended to deliver the aims of the national strategy for flood and coastal erosion risk management in Wales and the programme for government commitment. However, we all know here—we've all been witness in recent years—that Wales has suffered devastating impacts from flooding, such as the impacts to homes, rail infrastructure and businesses. We saw what happened in Rhondda Cynon Taf following storm Dennis, with more recent examples coming from storms Bert and Darragh, which followed each other almost simultaneously. Storm Bert brought rainfall that was between 50 per cent and 100 per cent of the total average expected in just the month of November and, as a result, some rivers reached the highest levels ever recorded. More than 700 properties were flooded during Bert and around 95,000 houses were left without power during storm Darragh. And storm Darragh was quite frightening, really, when speaking with the Meteorological Office and the National Grid, about how that storm changed from being one where they were expecting a lot of rain to the massive and huge winds and turbulence that we had. Llandudno pier in Aberconwy suffered severe damage. Several kiosks were ripped from their foundations, causing £250,000 worth of damage.

Now, Natural Resources Wales are reporting that 272,817 properties are now at risk of flooding in Wales, and that's one in seven. So, that's actually seen an increase of 132,817 properties that will be at risk in 20 years. Now, we know from research undertaken that these flood incident levels and storms will increase, and will increase more frequently. You marvelled earlier about NRW and the money you've put into that, about flood incident alerts, but there have been concerns as well—you know, Cabinet Secretary—when we've been taking evidence on these in our committee, that it was storm Darragh that was issued as an amber, when, in real terms, it should have actually been a red. So, we really do need to be sure, when these alerts are going out, that they are accurate and that they don't allow any complacency in the system.

Now, with extreme weather events set to become more frequent, and flooding set to increase along the line, throwing money at NRW is not necessarily the answer. We know, don't we, that there were over 70 members of staff needed just to deal with our flooding responsibilities, going forward. What are the numbers now? How is the recruiting of people to work in that area taking place?

I know that my colleague Carolyn has often mentioned this, about riparian owners and ordinary watercourses across Wales. Sometimes these riparian owners do not know their own responsibilities. So, how can you bring this more to the fore? Will you also clarify what enforcement can be taken against riparian landowners that do not take any responsibility? Can the Cabinet Secretary clarify who will take responsibility where there is no identified landowner?

And finally, in the climate change committee, we have recently considered the problems caused by the lack of one register of vulnerable people or people in priority need. During the recent water outage that my colleague Darren Miller and I experienced, it turned out to be a gold command, but all the different responders and emergency services were using different lists. Dŵr Cymru themselves have 3,500 on their list. At the end of the few days of the crisis, it was up to 7,500, which tells me those figures were inaccurate at the start. So, how can we make sure we've got one, all-encompassing register? I know there are GDPR issues, but, in moments of crisis, that has to be the priority, that those people who are classed as vulnerable and those people classed as priority need get the help they need.

And also, finally, can we, as Members of this elected institution, be advised when a crisis incident occurs and it's a gold or a bronze or a silver command? Elected county councillors get to know, but we don't, and we are on the front line when these incidents occur. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Janet. Thank you, first of all, for what I'm taking as support for the level of investment that we're doing. We need to keep this investment going, but, simply to make the point, we need to vote for this investment as well, when the budget is in front of us, because that is a real issue. If we want to actually lever in the hundreds of millions of pounds on the scale I described, then, for all Members, it is incumbent upon them to make sure that the means are there as well as the will, and that means voting for the budget.

But in terms of flood alerts, you raise an important point there, because one of the things, in my short tenure in office, after storm Bert, storm Darragh, and after the incidents on the water outages as well in in north Wales, we've done is a very rapid, quick debrief, and I think it's been the right thing to do.

And the issue in terms of the storms, the flood alert system, and the need to learn lessons, I'm glad the committee is looking at this, and I'm looking forward to what recommendations they might bring forward. It doesn't take away from the fact that our investment into that now has been significant. If it needs to be fine-tuned and addressed, how they're used, particularly when we have rapid flash flooding on rivers, for example, then I'm sure NRW and the other agencies will want to fine-tune them to get that right.

In terms of the people in priority need, that was another thing that flowed out of the debriefing of the resilience forum themselves. But also, the debriefs that we did identified that it seems that different companies have slightly different lists of priority customers. Bear in mind that people can self-identify to go onto these lists, and what we saw in the north Wales example was that over the course of that event, hour by hour, two times, three times the number of people were coming forward saying, 'I'd like to be on the list as well', and they were trying to respond in live time to people putting themselves on the list. There is something about the joined-upness that has flowed out of recent events that we're doing work on, and I'm hopeful that we can come back to the Siambr at some point and give you an update on that, because I think there are ways to deal with this, but it does mean getting through some of the data constraints as well, so that we can actually, without jeopardising an individual's human rights, make sure that we can share, where necessary, where people are deemed to be vulnerable for one thing or another.

On the issue of recruitment, we've convened a round-table to discuss this matter with members of the flood committee to discuss skills. The skills piece goes right across NRW, contractors, local authorities and more. We need to lift everybody's boat with this and get more of those skilled people in it. I've committed Welsh Government resource into taking this forward. I've put money behind this as a result of the recent budget into a plan to develop the skills base as well.

And just to be clear on riparian owners—Janet, I’m glad you raised it, and Carolyn regularly raises this as well—local authorities have powers under the Land Drainage Act 1991 to enforce riparian responsibilities. Lots of people, I have to say, are unaware of their responsibilities. We frequently talk about this, and I frequently say here on the floor that the landowner has riparian responsibilities. NRW do have, by the way, information about the rules and responsibilities. You can look on their website. And I'd ask all Members to help spread the word on that, because it's not simply for our agencies to deal with this; we need landowners to step up to the mark as well.

Thank you for this afternoon’s statement.

You'll know that flooding is a major issue in the region I represent, but obviously, it’s also of huge concern to so many Members. Not only have we seen serious instances of flooding, but also a number of near misses. There was a really close call in February in my region. You’ll know Clydach Terrace very well in Ynysybwl: it is one of the schemes listed. But obviously, you’ll also know that they were seriously impacted by flooding in 2020, again impacted to a slight degree last year during storm Bert, very nearly seriously flooded last month, but a solution won’t be in place till at least 2029. That’s nine years of having the highest risk to life of anywhere in Wales, nine years of watching that river every time it rains heavily.

Of course I welcome the investment, but we know that some of it will take time in order to be able to save lives, not only to keep properties from being flooded. But there will still remain many communities where that risk cannot be mitigated. Also, looking at Natural Resources Wales’s own report last year, they very clearly stated, looking at the long-term investment requirement for flood defences in Wales, that over the next 100 years, 24 per cent more properties will be at risk from river flooding, 47 per cent more from tidal flooding, and 34 per cent more properties also at risk of surface water flooding. That’s also the figure if we don’t build any more homes in Wales.

I know you know this, Cabinet Secretary, but in order for us to keep pace for all existing flood defences, it will require 3.4 times the current funding level, so it is an extremely serious situation, and obviously, with more extreme weather as well, it is extremely difficult for the work to be kept at pace. We know Natural Resources Wales have been through an extremely difficult and challenging time financially at a time when we’d want them to be able to put all their focus into this work and responding to the climate emergency. Obviously, they've also had to look at restructuring. Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned the 70 jobs that were highlighted after storm Dennis. I would like clarity in terms of where we're at in terms of staffing numbers and resources, because indications are that they are still desperate in terms of staff in order to be able to keep pace. So, I'd like clarity on that.

In terms of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales's report, published in October, I would like to know when the Government intends to respond to that, because of that flood resilience piece that's required. I obviously appreciate that you mentioned the funding available to businesses and residents after they've been flooded. It's nowhere near enough, as you'll know, for those that fail to get insurance, especially businesses, because there is no insurance available for some businesses where they are at risk. It's welcome. But when you are, perhaps, flooded four times in a year, the costs are not just hitting you financially—it's that emotional cost as well. Many residents in my region have told me that they are now reliant on antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication. So, there are costs to the NHS—some have said about declining health, some have developed heart conditions. Obviously, they can't say it's because of this, but doctors are fearful. So, I fear that we don't understand the holistic impact it's having on our communities.

I was also extremely worried during the February weather that we had that people within our communities are desperate to go out and help others who are at risk, and that they are in danger of putting themselves at risk, because we don't have formalised systems to have flood forums locally where volunteers are trained to understand the risk. I had to encourage people not to go out when the river was about to burst its banks. We know how dangerous fast-flowing water is. So, how can we ensure that, in those communities that are at risk, people and volunteers understand those risks and are trained in order to not put themselves in danger?

Similarly, Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned some of our most vulnerable. I had instances where nobody was able to get to people, and, had it flooded, they would have been at risk of perhaps dying in their homes. So, I'm sorry for all the questions, but it's just to understand that bigger—. This is obviously welcome investment, but as every report says, it won't save every home, every business. I'd like to understand how we're supporting communities to ensure that no life is lost trying to help those who are being flooded, or that people die in their homes because they don't know to keep themselves safe.

Heledd, thank you very much, and thanks for your ongoing engagement with this, not just with Clydach Terrace, but on the general issue. You're absolutely right that the scale of the challenge that we face and the risks to homes and properties and, potentially, lives will increase as the years go by. We know this is coming. This is global warming made very, very real, both with rising sea levels and also the increasingly traumatic weather events we have. It'll manifest itself in very different ways, but we know it's going to get worse. In which case, we do need to keep that quantum of investment going, and we do need to grow that investment, actually, as we go forward as well.

Let me turn to some of the specific questions that you raised. On the staffing, in response to an earlier question from Janet, I mentioned that I'd commissioned work to look at those skills, because keeping the investment going is one thing, we also need the skilled people coming through. We face a not dissimilar challenge in other civil engineering/hydrology areas as well. So, for example, ramping up the work we need to do on coal tips as well. We also need to grow that cadre of people. Some of them are overlapping skills, but what we need to do is, and it comes back to this point, to lift everybody's boat, local authorities, NRW and others. So, I've commissioned some work on that. The good thing about this is that if we can grow that skills pool, these are really well-paid jobs, and they're jobs that are in our local communities, working in our local communities and recruiting from our local schools, colleges and universities as well. So, I think we need to do more in there and excite people about the opportunities in responding to climate change challenges.

In terms of insurance, just to say I'm meeting shortly with insurers to discuss a range of things with them. I'll be discussing how Flood Re is going in terms of the offer to householders. But, of course, you rightly flag that there is no similar offer in terms of businesses. There are reasons why the insurance industry says that that cannot be done, but I want to explore that with them and I want to talk about whether there are ways forward, either at a Wales level or at a UK level. This is something we do need to look at. But meanwhile, some of this investment is part of the deal, if you like, with the wider insurance industry, to say, 'We will keep our investment up as long as you can also provide that insurance to people, as well'.

You talked about responding on the climate adaptation piece, and we've had really good engagement with the NICW from my officials on that. We know that we need to bring forward the response very, very soon. So, we're working on it. It's good to see the anticipation here of that work coming forward.

Finally, on Clydach Terrace—very, very important—I often find that the best way to learn about what it feels like to be flooded is to meet people face to face. I know that you and I, and Andrew Morgan and Vikki, were up there together with residents in Clydach Terrace back in September. They're still very much in my mind. I know, as you know, that the work on the developing outline business case is due to be published this spring. It'll need to identify at least a potential option for addressing the flood risk to the community. We need to have that business case completed so that people can see it. But we know that there are real particular challenges; the characteristics of that community—being in a very short, steep catchment, with a very fast flash flood propensity within the river there—mean that the engineering options for that community are quite limited. But we want to see that coming forward.

Just to be clear, I want to continue engaging with you and with others on this as we go forward. It is difficult to justify what has been put forward as the possible feasibility of a buyout without first actually considering all other potential options to reduce risk to the community. I have met with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to discuss Clydach Terrace. I will update you and Vikki and other local representatives, including Andrew Morgan, in due course. We're trying to think this through. There is no precedent for the type of initiative that has been mooted by some, but we are exploring what options there could be for that particular community.

The one thing we can be certain about is that climate change is no longer a distant threat; it's here and it's happening now. Coastal erosion is accelerating and reshaping our communities, and that includes most of my area of Mid and West Wales. The Welsh Government has responded, and you mentioned the record investment of £75 million this year alone and £300 million since 2021. I was in Aberaeron on Saturday, and it's incredible to see the work that's going on there, the involvement in the community and the schools. And £26.8 million is significant, as is the £3.4 million for Barmouth Viaduct Gardens and also the £6 million in Ammanford. But what we can be sure of is that we won't know where the next flood is going to happen.

I'm concerned that, this week alone, the temperatures are rising rapidly. It's about looking at those weather patterns now, because very often, after a sudden increase in temperature, the following week you have downpours of rain that will fall unexpectedly and flood unexpectedly. So, my question to you, Deputy First Minister, is that we work with all agencies to deliver, where possible, all the tools that are available in the toolbox, and that isn't just those schemes that we've mentioned in terms of infrastructure—

You need to ask the question, please, Joyce.

It's also about the natural solutions, because the other thing that's happening, of course, is the biodiversity degradation.

Indeed. Thank you so much. You've taken us in a very important different direction here. There are two particular points that you raised there. One is that we are getting much better now at knowing, for example, where the threats of coastal inundation are: a combination of high tides, storm surges and traumatic weather incidents. You will know that we've put out there, for the public to see, those maps, but what we've also done—because that can be terrifying—is said, 'And this is how we can mitigate them on a priority basis.' So, we identify those communities where the business case is strong, because there are homes, there are businesses and there are lives to be protected and so on. That does mean that other areas may not have heavy embattlement protection, but we might be working with natural processes there as well. So, I think the piece of using natural processes, such as catchment management, what we do with the sustainable farming scheme, what we do with other ways of land management, planting, woodland creation—our woodland grants are still in place and so on—. We slow the flow of the rivers down as well, as we, at the same, improve biodiversity, carbon sequestration and so on. All of these things have a role to play. As you say, every tool in the toolbox needs to be deployed.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. It's important that we visit this issue on a regular basis. In February we marked the thirty-fifth anniversary of the Towyn floods, which I experienced, along with thousands of other people, when the sea defences in Towyn gave way back in February 1990. It was the largest evacuation since the second world war, with thousands of people having to be rehomed after the sea swept in. And, quite rightfully, the Welsh Government is now investing in the Towyn and Kinmel Bay area with those coastal defences. However, the biggest risk of flooding, once those defences have seen the investment take place, is going to actually come from the River Clwyd, and the west bank of the River Clwyd, which also desperately needs improvement. I wonder what discussions the Welsh Government is having, both with Natural Resources Wales, Conwy County Borough Council and other stakeholders, about making sure that those defences are fit for purpose, and that the drainage system in the Rhuddlan Morfa area is also improved, because that is causing, I’m afraid, flooding, whenever there are heavy downpours, in places like Belgrano, Abergele, Pensarn and, unfortunately, in Towyn as well.

Darren, thank you so much for that, and thank you as well for the welcome of the investment that we're taking forward in Kinmel Bay. You rightly remind us that we have seen, down the decades and down the generations, horrendous flooding incidents around Wales, and England as well. We need to keep learning from them and we know we need to keep a high level of investment going, and all the tools as well, I have to say, relating back to Joyce’s question, including natural flood management as well.

What I’d really strongly encourage you to do, and other Members who are looking at their own local areas, and their local watercourses, traditional drainage patterns, ditches and so on, is to engage with the RMA, who need to bring forward schemes that are properly joined up and holistic, and every asset actually plays a part within this. They’ll always do it on the basis of a business case. They’ll always do it on the basis of what they think those assets can contribute to the flood alleviation, and preventing floods as well. So, rather than me double-guessing what should happen on the ground, because what I have, very often, is lifted to me—the advice that says, 'Here’s the advice that comes from the RMA, from NRW and from my officials as well'—engage directly with them, because sometimes local knowledge is very important as well.

And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

With one in seven properties, I think—one in seven or one in eight—at risk of flooding, it’s a really frightening statistic, and this funding is very much welcomed. I walked from Rhyl to Prestatyn a weekend or so ago and saw the massive coastal defence—that rock armour being put in place. I see there’s a new golf club being built as well, as part of that, which is really welcome. But one of the biggest issues that we have is from surface water flooding, and when it happens, it happens really quickly and it’s really scary. So, I want to know what you are doing regarding capture in the uplands to prevent it.

And going back to this riparian ownership, we need to bring people along with us, to make sure they’re resilient, but people on the ground really need to know who’s responsible for those ditches, culverts et cetera. Local authorities are asking, so, please, can you support them, when they go out to say to landowners, 'You are responsible, not us, the council, not NRW'? I know you said there's information on NRW's website, but landowners aren't going to go to that. So, I'm asking, can you produce a leaflet or something that councils can hand out, and also for residents to know themselves who's responsible, so they can get involved and be more resilient? Thank you.

Carolyn, thank you very much. And do you know, I'm saying how much we've progressed now in terms of mapping things such as coastal inundation, and our Met Office engagement and weather forecasting allows us to be good at seeing when the traumatic incidents are moving to—not entirely 100 per cent, but far more than we were. But surface water is one of the biggest challenges, because with surface water, you cannot accurately map how a particular street, a townscape, will behave.

What we do need to do is actually work now with planners, both in terms of retrofitting and adjusting street design, but also as new communities are designed, to make sure that they're better. So, one example is the sustainable urban drainage that we see now in places like Cardiff and elsewhere, in my own community, using the natural assets, using water run-off into culverts and filtration, which is also a nice amenity, quite frankly, for people as well. But, yes, the surface water piece—that's why we need all partners engaged in this.

And on the riparian management and ownership, it is the landowners that have responsibility. I mentioned that NRW have very good, very comprehensible information on their website. I'll go back to NRW and ask them whether they also have leaflets and so on and that they can also engage with RMAs and local authorities, because we do need to get this out. But to go to a landowner and say, 'Well, look, you've also got a role'—it's what we should be doing. We can't expect the state to come in and do absolutely everything. If you have a watercourse, if you have a bund or an embankment that is part of the flood assets, whatever, then they need to be maintained by you as well. But I'll take that away and have a look at it.

But you rightly say, Dirprwy Lywydd, as many have said, that the scale of what we're now facing means this is why we have to keep this investment and expertise and skills going: 273,000 properties at risk of flooding from rivers, the sea and surface water; 400 properties at risk from coastal erosion. As the climate changes, these risks will heighten, so we need to lift our game to deal with it as well, and this Welsh Labour Government is proud to do so.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.