The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Paul Davies. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 8 today is the Plaid Cymru debate on rail infrastructure funding. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move the motion.

Motion NDM8852 Heledd Fychan

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes that:

a) the UK Secretary of State for Transport's acknowledgement in correspondence with the Welsh Government that Wales’s rail infrastructure has suffered from historically low levels of enhancement spending over many years;

b) this systematic underfunding is in addition to the withholding of HS2 consequentials; and 

c) the Welsh Government’s analysis from 2020 that relative to its share of UK population and route length of the rail network, Wales will face a shortfall of between £2.4 billion and £5.1 billion in rail enhancement funding on the basis of UK Government commitments over the period 2019 to 2029.

2. Regrets:

a) the reports that the UK Chancellor intends to freeze spending on major new rail projects until after the next UK election, which would further entrench the systematic underfunding of Welsh rail for at least another four years; and

b) that previous UK Government pledges on rail infrastructure, which were in themselves insufficient to make up for historic underfunding, such as the pledge to electrify the north Wales mainline, have failed to materialise.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) provide updated figures on the shortfall in rail enhancement investment in Wales;

b) confirm its position that HS2 should be redesignated as an England-only project and that Wales should receive the resultant consequentials in line with figures quoted by current UK Government Ministers when in opposition; and

c) write to the UK Secretary of State for Transport to ask for the full consequentials to be made available to Wales and reversal of low levels of enhancement spending.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm pleased to move this motion in the name of Heledd Fychan this afternoon.

I'm pleased to open this debate on a motion that gets to the heart of a fundamental injustice—the systematic underfunding of Welsh rail infrastructure by the UK Government. Our motion sets out the undeniable facts: Wales has received a fraction of the rail enhancement funding it is owed, our infrastructure has suffered from decades of neglect, and the UK Government has failed to deliver the fair funding Wales needs to improve its transport network.

The UK Secretary of State for Transport has acknowledged that Wales has experienced historically low levels of rail enhancement spending. But this underfunding is not just historical, it is ongoing. Westminster, whether red or blue, continues to deny Wales the HS2 consequentials it is due, despite the fact that Scotland and Northern Ireland received their fair shares. If Wales had been treated fairly and equitably, we would have been entitled to around £4 billion.

That figure has been repeated previously by numerous members of this Government, Labour Members of the Senedd, Labour Members of Parliament and, even now, the Secretary of State for Wales. These calls from the Government benches opposite grew evermore silent as they inched closer to power in Westminster, where they would have the ability to do something about the ongoing injustice we face on funding. This is not just about past spending, it's about Wales's future. 

We hear reports that the UK Chancellor intends to freeze spending on major new rail projects until after the next UK election. The Secretary of State for Wales claimed that rail development in Wales was her No. 1 priority, yet only days later, reports emerged that the UK Government is blocking new investment. Clearly, the people of Wales cannot trust this Labour Party to stick to their word.

What do we make of the amendment today? It is a 'delete all' amendment, u-turning on previous policy positions. A weak amendment that does nothing to demand fair funding for Wales and instead welcomes vague promises from the UK Government. And let's be clear, this is a complete u-turn of Labour's previous stance. In the past, Labour MSs in this very Chamber have unanimously voted for HS2 consequentials for Wales. They've stood on platforms promising to fight for fair rail funding. They have agreed with everything we are saying today. That is, until Keir Starmer took charge and they decided to put party over the interests of Wales. Now, when it truly matters, they have collective amnesia. What has changed? The facts remain the same, the funding injustice remains the same, the flawed Barnett formula is the same. The only thing that has changed is Labour's willingness to stand up for Wales when they've finally got the chance to do something about it. I'm so disappointed. Diolch yn fawr. 

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. 

Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Welcomes:

a) that the UK Government has acknowledged the historic low levels of spending on railways in Wales; and

b) the endorsement by the UK Government of a pipeline of rail enhancement priorities identified by the Wales Rail Board.

2. Notes that the Welsh Government is seeking to secure:

a) funding for an ambitious pipeline of rail enhancements, starting with the delivery of the recommendations of the North Wales and South East Wales Transport Commissions;

b) a review of Network Rail investment processes to ensure Wales receives a fair share of future Network Rail investment;

c) funding for Core Valley Lines rail enhancements; and

d) an appropriate level of comparability with relevant UK Government programmes in the Barnett formula, recognising that responsibility for this part of the rail network in Wales is now devolved.

Amendment 1 moved.

Moved.

I call on Peter Fox to move amendment 2, in the name of Paul Davies. 

Amendment 2—Paul Davies

In point 2, delete sub-point b).

Amendment 2 moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Dirprwy Lywydd, consecutive Labour Governments here in Cardiff Bay have played politics with virtually every issue. They played politics when it came to the UK Conservative Government offering support for waiting lists, they played politics when it came to the matter of M4 relief road funding and again when it came to childcare, and the matter of rail investment is no different. Let's look at HS2, as we've already heard. It must be embarrassing for Labour backbenchers—hence not many are here—where, before the last election, Labour politicians in both Wales and England were calling— 

There's nobody on your front bench. 

Yes, all right. I'm talking about you. 

There's nobody on your front bench.

There were Labour politicians in Wales—[Interruption.]

Let's not have a conversation across the room, let's allow the contribution to be made. 

He always does it. So, yes, politicians in both Wales and England were calling for billions of pounds, as we've heard, of consequential funding for HS2, but now that Labour are in power in Westminster, their call is now for just a meagre £400 million. What a kick in the teeth. We should be getting at least £1.5 billion, recognising the £38 billion that has been spent so far on HS2 funding. That's not to say that that's all we want—[Interruption.] Yes.

Thank you for taking the intervention. Would you agree, then, that the consistent failure of the last Government over 14 years to pay consequential funding to Wales was a 14-year kick in the teeth?

We, as a group, as you know, have stood against our own party when it comes to HS2 consequentials, and we're talking about your opportunity now, and it's a kick in the teeth for Wales that you are turning your back on your Members.

Keir Starmer had his chance to announce extra funding in Wales as a result of HS2 spending in the autumn budget, but, instead, he chose to tax our farmers, strip pensioners of their winter fuel allowance and hit businesses and employees with national insurance increases. He could have announced the electrification of the north Wales main line, a £1 billion project that had been pledged by the Conservatives, but no, instead, the Labour Government—[Interruption.] I knew you were going to do that.

Will you take an intervention on that? Because you're right, the Conservatives pledged it. What they didn't do was to budget for it, and we've seen correspondence from Network Rail that directly contradicts what Rishi Sunak said in his speech in Manchester. He said that the money was there; it wasn't there. He misled people. Do you condemn him for that?

No, I don't. No, I don't.

Thought not. Thought not. Thought not.

These are about choices and decisions. If Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves wanted to do it, if they really thought, they would have found a way to have done it. We would have done it, and your party clearly don't want to now. But, instead, the Labour Government—. As we heard also, Westminster's decided to freeze all new rail projects. That's short-sighted, isn't it? How is this conducive with the need for more and better public transport or the need to reduce carbon emissions? It's not. Labour struggle to understand that we need to invest in our infrastructure if we want to see growth, so there has to be a joined-up strategy across policy areas aligned to strategic aims, rather than ad hoc policy done on the hoof. And we see Plaid Cymru continually shouting for more money irrespective of context. No matter how much the UK Government send to Wales's Government, it will never be enough for Plaid, and I can see why they do that.

And that said, that said, I agree with most of their motion. I agree with most of their motion, apart from the continuous complaining about past Conservative Governments. I know that's your job—[Interruption.] But it's easy. It's easy—[Interruption.] It's easy, Dirprwy Lywydd, to carp from the backbenches, knowing that they're unlikely ever to have to deliver anything, certainly not in the UK Government, and probably not here. Words are cheap. [Interruption.] Sorry, Mabon.

Do you accept that we've had decades of underinvestment in our rail service, and that the Conservative Party is part of that problem?

I think we could have had more in Wales over the many, many years, yes. But we're talking about now. We're talking about now. We're talking about 25 years of Labour. You could have reprofiled your own capital spend and done more with different things.

Now, unlike—[Interruption.] Now, unlike the Labour Government, we as Conservatives were happy to tell our colleagues in Westminster when we disagreed with them, and we did not sell Wales short. I believe that Wales was owed fair funding for HS2 and still is, unlike the Labour Party, who clearly don't. When we look at their amendment, there is no direct mention of HS2, and it does not expressly call for fair funding, let alone put a figure on it.

We hear the First Minister regularly saying she is not responsible for what Keir Starmer does, but that shouldn't stop the Labour Party here calling him out. First Ministers here have always been happy to criticise every Conservative Prime Minister; why can't Welsh Labour stand up to the current UK Government, recognising how they are ripping off Wales and the Welsh people?

Dirprwy Lywydd, I really hope that Wales gets the investment we deserve from UK Government, but it's clear that Keir Starmer has had other ideas, and it's also clear that the Welsh Government won't advocate for the people of Wales. Welsh Labour are clearly tired; it's time for them to stand aside and let us put things right.

The closer we get to an election, the poorer the standard of debate happens to be in this Chamber.

You would swear from what you've heard—and I'm sure my colleague, because I believe my colleague Mick Antoniw is going to speak, will talk about the importance of the right to devolution of that funding—but you would swear from what you heard in this debate that, actually, there's been no progress whatsoever on rail in Wales, which is manifestly not the case. I can take you back to my office in Gilfach in 2016 when I invited Ian Bullock of Arriva Trains Wales into the office to ask him why we had to travel to work on stinky, crowded, squeaky-wheeled Pacer trains in which everybody was packed in like sardines on the journey to work. Peredur is nodding; I imagine you've travelled on those. I remember Leanne Wood getting up in the Chamber and saying how disgusting it was that people had to travel on these trains, and I agreed with her. And then we managed to get Tom Joyner, when he took over Arriva Trains Wales, to buy in additional rolling stock, old-fashioned 769 trains, but we managed to get them, to buy them in and convert them from electric to diesel to run on the line. That helped Transport for Wales—[Interruption.] Well, it was going really well, then. You interrupted—. Go on.

You were just questioning why you had to travel in such poor trains back in 2016. The reason why you had to travel in such poor trains in 2016 was, when Stephen Byers issued the initial franchise for rail in Wales—

Oh God, it's like Mark Isherwood.

—it had 0 per cent—0 per cent—growth built into a 15-year franchise. Your Government put the franchise in place, and it had 0 per cent growth built into it.

It's the Mark Isherwood process of going back over past speeches. It was a good answer, but the fact is I'm not talking about the historic situation, I'm talking about what happened with the Minister, the Cabinet Secretary, the Cabinet Secretary who is sitting on the front bench right now, and the changes we saw.

So, if I come back to Tom Joyner, bringing in those carriages on the line, that helped then add infill while the new trains were being built and have appeared on the line. So, if you look the Rhymney to Cardiff line now, the newest trains in the whole of Europe—the newest trains in the whole of Europe—are running on the Rhymney to Cardiff line. The transformation is incredible. The transformation is incredible. If you were travelling on the train today, you would not recognise that service. Whatever happened with Stephen Byers, you would not have recognised that service, because the core Valleys lines were devolved, because the transport Cabinet Secretary has been able to make those changes, and those changes are going to be rolled out across the Valleys lines network in the form of the metro—

Will you take an intervention?

Oh God, all right, then. Go on.

I accept what you're saying, and it's good to see those new trains, even though we could do with some in north-west Wales as well—

Yes, and I've said—

—but the funds that you've had to allocate for that, that money, if we had our fair share, could have been paid from the money that we're owed from the UK Government, and the money that you've had to spend could have been spent on other capital projects. But you're not accepting that—

No, I am. I am accepting that, and, as I said, my colleague is going to make the same point, but I think the point you've made is, actually, that the Welsh Labour Government deserves credit for what it's achieved with limited resources on this line; £1.5 billion has been spent on the metro, and we've seen it rolling out. So, I welcome Mabon ap Gwynfor's praise for the Welsh Labour Government's success in the face of the challenge. And as Alun Davies is chuntering, it is devolved. It is because it's devolved; that's where the power comes from. So, you were absolutely right to say it needs to be devolved and that devolution is welcome.

So—. My flow was interrupted by Mabon ap Gwynfor. This is coming off the top of my head anyway, so it doesn't help. The fact that the trains will be rolled out across the rest of the network will happen, and I've often likened Transport for Wales and the network to being like a flowering flower that germinates on the Rhymney line and is now seeding across the network, and you will see that. That transformation has come about directly as a result of what happened.

Yesterday—. I also want to talk about one other thing. Yesterday, we talked about the global centre of rail excellence at First Minister's questions. I believe there's an opportunity there as well, and, again, why the devolution of funding is important, because I think there's an opportunity there for the UK Government to put in further direct investment, in addition to the £20 million so far, to support that, providing that the global centre of rail excellence can leverage in additional funding.

The key point is that centre will bring new economic strength to Onllwyn and to the area in which it's operating, including the whole of the south Wales Valleys. I think it can become a magnet for world-class talent and the first ever net-zero in-operation railway, supporting innovations needed to speed up technology development in the rail industry. At the moment, if we want to test our carriages that are running—these brand-new carriages that are running—on the core Valleys lines, we've got to send them to Spain. Wouldn't it be easier if we could just send them across to Neath? That's an opportunity that we have and an opportunity I'm going to be pressing as time goes by. With that, with all the interventions, I think I'd better stop, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you very much.

Quite simply, our rail system in Wales is not fit for purpose. I hope to catch a train from Cardiff to north Wales this evening; those of us living in north Wales know what kind of experience that journey is. The timetable says that the journey will be five hours and nine minutes—that'll be my journey home this evening on the train. And the words, 'rail replacement bus' are enough to horrify someone, and this is the experience we have so often. How many direct trains have to change in Chester, and so on? The system isn't good enough.

It is clear to anybody who uses the rail system in Wales that it is not fit for purpose. And you know, in the embers of last year's general election campaign, there lies many a broken promise, but few have proven to be more emblematic, perhaps, of Labour's betrayal than its screeching u-turn on HS2. The current Secretary of State for Wales, Jo Stevens, went to the despatch box and quoted the same numbers as Plaid Cymru does and the £4 billion owed to Wales. But, now that Labour is in power, she has changed her mind, and Labour are doing nothing differently to the Conservatives before them in addressing the injustice of HS2. Hefin David.

I just want to correct a misconception about rail replacement services, the bus replacement services, certainly on the core Valleys line. The reason they're there is because the rail network is being upgraded and it's being improved, so it's actually part of the improvement process; it's only temporary. So, when we say, 'rail replacement bus services', sometimes that's for a very positive purpose.

Rail replacement isn't part of the enhancement process, of course; it is about fixing things and it's about maintenance. It is not about rail enhancement. It is not about improving the rail system that we have in Wales, which is what we're talking about here today.

But we did hear the Secretary of State for Wales, as I say, make the case for the £4 billion. Mick Antoniw sits here today:

'The UK Government needs to do the right thing and to pay up', he said. Absolutely right. Jenny Rathbone is here too:

It's certainly going to cost'—

HS2—

'above £100 billion...and what is Wales going to get for it? Absolutely nothing.'

Huw Irranca-Davies isn't here today, but he was right too:

'the HS2 funding and other funding, over many years, and the Northern Powerhouse Rail plans as well. All of that is wrong, and it shouldn’t rely on changes of Government, by the way.'

'Hear, hear' to all of them; I agree entirely.

But there are two separate but interconnected issues at play here: is Wales receiving fair consequentials as a result of HS2? Well, not only is it 'no fair consequential', but there is no consequential for Wales. Designated as an England-and-Wales project, the more spending goes into HS2, the less money there is, effectively, to invest in rail spending in Wales. But, beyond that, does the current system treat Wales fairly when it comes to Network Rail spending on major projects, not fixing things as they go along, but rail enhancement? It certainly doesn't. And again, previously, Members of the Labour benches agreed with us on this issue. Since the year 2000, Wales has received just 2 per cent of total enhancement investment from the England-and-Wales rail enhancement pipeline. The only major scheme delivered has been the electrification of the south Wales main line, but that only went as far as Cardiff, when it was always going to go as far as Swansea, along with a small contribution to the south Wales metro, with Welsh Government having to go into its own not-too-deep pockets to make up for the money that wasn't coming from Westminster.

Now, to put this into perspective, Wales comprises around 10 per cent of the UK's rail network, 5 per cent of the population, yet we're receiving only a fraction of the investment we are due. From 2011-12 to 2019-20, the Wales Governance Centre estimates that Wales was shortchanged by around £0.5 billion in rail infrastructure spending, and there's no sign of the injustice coming to an end.

There is no sign that the injustice is coming to an end. Professor Mark Barry—such an authority in this area—calculated, under the current Barnett formula, that Wales would lose out by £2.7 billion in terms of further funding for our railways by the 2040s. These billions of pounds that are going missing means billions of pounds that are not invested in the future of Wales.

Because this isn't just about the past failures to spend properly, it is about our future. If we do not act now, Wales will continue to miss out on critical future investment, leaving our transport network in disrepair while billions are poured into infrastructure elsewhere. And all we ask for, essentially, is fairness. The Welsh Government has to stand up to Keir Starmer and make that case, insist that he rectifies what others in the Labour Party agree with us on, or certainly used to agree with us on, and what we are as determined as ever on these benches to put right. We can’t allow Westminster to continue treating Wales as an afterthought and a poor relation. Think of what we can achieve with this missing investment.

Rhun, you need to conclude now, please.

We must have ambition for our rail infrastructure: electrification—north as well as south; better connectivity; a modern and efficient transport network that supports our economy, our communities and our future generations. The status quo is no longer acceptable.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon, on the subject of rail infrastructure funding—a topic that, despite its importance, has too often been met with neglect and delay in north Wales. There has been historical underfunding of Wales’s railways, particularly in comparison to other parts of the UK. But there is an equally troubling reality within Wales itself, one that sees north Wales routinely treated as a poor relation when it comes to transport investment.

We are told that Wales has suffered from decades of underfunding and rail enhancements. This is true. The UK Labour Government has denied fair funding for HS2, which the Welsh Conservatives supported, as we believe HS2 should have been classed as an England-only project from the start, and so did Labour until they were in office.

The Welsh Government has consistently prioritised investment in the south, while leaving the north with little more than broken promises and empty gestures. While south Wales has been—

Will you give way?

I'll finish my sentence and then I'll let you in. While south Wales has seen more than £1 billion ploughed into its metro system—an integrated network of heavy rail, light rail and trams—north Wales was handed a meagre £50 million. Alun.

I'm grateful to you for that. Do you think the greatest deception that you can play on a people or a group or a community is to promise them something, knowing that you are telling a direct lie, and that when Rishi Sunak did that in Manchester over the £1 billion for the electrification of the north Wales main line, he was deliberately deceiving the people that you represent? 

I don't agree. I think that it was subject to the outcome of the election. The Conservatives, unfortunately, weren't returned to Government and we weren't able to carry on with our plans. That was also part of the Network North strategy, which connected towns and cities in the north-west of England, and north Wales was a part of that project. So, I think that you are being slightly disingenuous with your intervention there, Alun.

That is not just a slight imbalance; it is an outright scandal. The north Wales metro, much trumpeted by Ministers in Cardiff bay, remains little more than a rebranding exercise, with next to no meaningful improvements for passengers. And what about the fares? The differences are staggering. In south Wales, you can travel between Swansea and Cardiff for £5.50. A journey of similar length in the north—for example, from Llandudno Junction to Chester—costs more than twice as much as the £5.50. Why should the people of north Wales be forced to pay more for worse services? Where is the fairness in that?

On HS2, even UK Labour Government Ministers, when in opposition, argued that HS2 should be classified as an England-only project. Now, when they have got the reins of power, they appear not to be keen to honour that principle. I say to them: if you truly believe in fairness, and if you genuinely want to see Wales flourish, then deliver the consequential funding that we are owed.

But let us not pretend that the UK Government alone is to blame. The Welsh Government, too, has questions to answer. It’s all very well for Ministers in Cardiff bay to lament underfunding from Westminster, but what have they done with the powers and resources that they already have? Time and again, when given the choice, they have opted to direct investment southwards, while leaving the north with whatever shrapnel was left over.

When they are not funnelling money into vanity schemes and exercises that amount to an irresponsible waste of taxpayers’ money, they are directing the money to the south. This is not just in rail, but in all forms of transport infrastructure. Major road projects in north Wales have been scrapped, while vast sums are poured into schemes in and around Cardiff. This is not a matter of party politics. It’s a matter of basic fairness.

If we truly believe in an equal and united Wales, then we must end the grotesque imbalance that sees one half of our country systematically overlooked. The Welsh Government’s ownership of TfW has been an unmitigated disaster: poor punctuality, overcrowding, overpriced services. Now, passengers across Wales will see regulated rail fares rise up to 6 per cent from this month, following a decision by the Welsh Government. Despite high rail fares and TfW being heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, the company is running at a loss. But how could we expect anything else from a Government of public sector Ministers who have never run a business?

The Plaid Cymru motion highlights, in point 2(b), that funding for the north Wales main line failed to materialise, but why did it fail to materialise? Because we got a Labour Government in Westminster. And, as mentioned, Rikki Sunak pledged £1 billion to electrify the north Wales main line as part of the Network North deal, which was dropped along with the levelling-up agenda, as the Labour Party seek to pump money into their heartlands elsewhere.

So, what, then, is the solution? First, let us insist without equivocation that HS2 is redesignated as an England-only project and that Wales receives the consequential funding it is owed. That money must be spent wisely—

Gareth, you need to conclude now, please.

—ensuring that it receives its fair share. This is not about regional rivalry, it’s not about setting north against south, it’s about ensuring that all of Wales has the opportunity to grow and prosper and benefit from the money they pay in tax. It is about fairness, justice and economic common sense. So, let us agree—

Gareth, conclude now, please.

I'm finishing now. So, let us agree to commit to delivering the investment our railways so desperately need right across Wales, and not just in one corner of it.

I've been reading a book called Derailed: How to fix Britain's broken railways, telling us about the history of our railway lines. They've never really been fit for purpose. Britain was the first country to develop passenger rail, but our journey to the present day has never been a straightforward one. If you go back to the beginning, the first railway service was between Liverpool and Manchester. It opened in 1830 and prompted a huge boom in railway construction. Competing railways began to spring up, often building duplicate infrastructure. So, they competed with each other and didn’t actually join up. They served passengers, but then also Britain’s heavy industry, such as coal, iron and steel.

World war one led to a more co-ordinated railway service and some joining up, and the system was temporarily nationalised before being handed over to the big four by the Railways Act 1921, privatising it again, only to be renationalised yet again after world war two, as intensive use and bombing meant significant state investment was required. So, we’ve not had a steady influx of proper funding over the 200 years. By the 1990s, British Rail was the most economically efficient of the western European railway systems with only low levels of state subsidy, but that wasn’t acceptable then to the dogmatic Tories of the early 1990s, and Thatcher promptly sold off British Rail and put us backwards again. What they failed to understand was that railways will never be a commercially driven business, but should be a public service whose state subsidy is justified by the enormous social and environmental benefits that the railways provide to everyone.

These benefits extend to freight trains, as well as passenger. One freight train can transport enough construction materials for around 30 houses, compared to up to 136 heavy goods vehicles. It's crucial for the environment, housing and job creation. Wales’s total benefits from railways in 2018-19 amounted to £260 million, representing 11 per cent of the total GB benefits. This includes £200 million in user benefits and £60 million in social benefits. Wales has the second highest overall benefits per capita in GB.

I’m pleased to say that we have a Labour Government now in the UK that has made a commitment to end rail franchising and bring rail services back into the public sector, where they belong. In Wales, we already do that, and we can demonstrate the benefits of a publicly owned rail operator in Transport for Wales, which is focusing on delivery for passengers, rather than profit. I remember when we had the strikes and Transport for Wales said, 'We’re going to keep our ticket offices open; we’re not going to have closures. We’re going to make sure that there are still guards and services, which is really important for all our passengers', and I was really proud that we’ve got Transport for Wales here in Wales that cares about people.

I will continue to call for significant infrastructure investment that is owed to Wales. I do believe we’re entitled to our fair share of HS2, and I’ve called for it. It was wrong that it was denied to us previously. Bids were made for levelling-up funding as well, for many schemes in north Wales, and that was also denied to us. I hope that schemes will come forward soon. I know that we've had some funding already to improve the timetables across north Wales and Wrexham to Bidston. I know we've got funding to improve stations. I know it's a little bit at a time, but it's all welcome.

Carolyn, will you take an intervention?

Yes, sure.

I'm glad to hear that you're supporting greater investment and more funding for rail in Wales. Can you explain why your Government has put a ‘delete all’ down to this motion and isn't supporting what you're stating today? 

I will say that I will support all funding, any extra we can get, whether it's the bits for station improvements, which I really welcome, or the fact we're investing in Transport for Wales, £800 million for new carriages. If we can get more money that was designated under HS2 as well, fair enough, and that's where I stand, okay?

I understand that progress is being made now by the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales with the Secretary of State for Wales and the Secretary of State for Transport regarding railway investment, and while the damage of 14—[Interruption.]

Ignore the comments from people who are sitting down. You can just continue your contribution.

I should ignore them, shouldn't I? The two Governments have reached a mutual understanding of requirements that are needed specifically. We don't need electrification on the north Wales line at the moment. We need to have extra capacity at Chester. We need to get that station built at Deeside industrial park. We need to get the north Wales main line sorted, so that we don't have flooding on it. These things are more important for us, that we get those in place. So, there's much that we need to do, to get back on, to actually enable HS2 funding. As long as we're getting some money coming in at the moment, I'm really pleased. We need to keep it going, and I know that those points are being made at the moment, and we need to keep fighting. Thank you. 

Hefin's right: objectively, train services have got better, especially from my perspective as someone who lives in Pencoed. I've got two trains an hour now; I'm not looking at the clock when we're getting late in the evening and thinking, ‘Am I going to catch the next train? Am I going to have to wait an extra hour and a half to get the next train?’ There are two trains now; they’re cleaner, they’re modern, but that isn't the case everywhere.

In Pencoed, we have that improvement. If you go to the other side of the region I represent, to the western Valleys, well, the provision isn't there at all. If we go to other parts of Wales, to north Wales, to west Wales, again provision is incredibly patchy, and that's where I'm worried slightly that the point of this debate might be missed, because the reality is, if we had that investment, if we had that money that was owed, then we could have invested in the western Valleys. We could have invested in a train line from Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. We could have invested in better provision in north Wales, and the reality is that that lack of investment, that infrastructure investment, has dampened our economy.

Every year, our local economies lose billions of pounds collectively due to those rail inefficiencies, those poor infrastructure and service provisions. Here in Wales, those are hitting our local economies particularly hard. The cost of lost productivity and stifled economic development is staggering even before considering the deeper inequalities in rail infrastructure investment. Other countries like China, Japan and Germany treat infrastructure as the backbone of economic growth, but here in Wales, it's not that we don't want to prioritise infrastructure investment, it's that we simply can't give it the same level of priority. And to be fair, that might have something to do with the Government not having the levers necessary to develop our own transport network. Westminster has clearly shown no intention of stepping up, but that doesn't excuse it.

Let's not forget that the Welsh Government decided to turn down greater powers over rail. Let's not forget that, now there's a Labour Government in London, the figure owed to Wales is less than it was before the election. You know what that is? It's an absolute joke. Labour Members here have gone back on what they were saying prior to the election. It's quite frankly embarrassing, and this neglect shows simply the regional inequalities in what is a dysfunctional union, putting Wales at a serious disadvantage compared to other parts of the UK. It restricts our economic potential, it deters investment and it drives skilled workers elsewhere, and we are seeing the consequences of this neglect in real time.

It's perfectly encapsulated with the construction of Old Oak Common as part of HS2. That will cause massive disruption for passengers travelling on lines in south Wales, yet the Welsh Government has been unable to provide any clarity on which stations will be impacted and how frequently passengers can expect disruptions. Perhaps we can be provided with some clarity on that today by the Cabinet Secretary. Perhaps even the Cabinet Secretary could provide some clarity on whether Wales will get any compensation for that disruption, because this is just another cost to Wales of this project that we are paying for but will receive no benefit from. If Wales is to prosper, we must have control over our own transport infrastructure to build our own infrastructure and ensure Westminster can’t hold back funding that we are entitled to again. It really is as simple as that. 

This is really quite depressing, this debate, for two reasons. One is that those two parties just want to tear chunks out of each other for not doing what the other one thinks they should be doing. And the second reason—and I am very frustrated with the Welsh Government—is the 'delete all' that you've put on the motion, because I challenge every single one of you here just to reread what the motion calls for. With the greatest of respect to my Labour colleagues, let's just remind ourselves. Do tell me what you disagree with here. I do welcome this motion. It says: 

'Calls on the Welsh Government to provide updated figures on the shortfall in rail enhancement investment in Wales'.

What's wrong with that? Secondly:

'confirm its position that HS2 should be redesignated as an England-only project and that Wales should receive the resultant consequentials in line with figures quoted by current UK Government Ministers when in opposition'.

What's wrong with that? And thirdly:

'write to the UK Secretary of State for Transport to ask for the full consequentials to be made available to Wales and reversal of low levels of enhancement spending.'

That is the focus and the ask of this debate. We all accept that services could be better elsewhere, in 'where I live' or whatever, but it's not about that. I feel these Wednesday afternoon debates are really the opposition parties putting down a motion and the Welsh Government saying 'delete all', and it feels like on this occasion just for the point of doing it. That depresses me beyond belief, because it would be so easy for you to accept it or at least to just enhance it in some way. So, please, could the Cabinet Secretary, who I have the greatest respect for, please tell us why you have decided to delete all and not accept any of the issues and the requests by Plaid Cymru in this motion, which I do welcome? 

I think you have to accept that UK Conservative Governments and UK Labour Governments have failed us here in Wales by really actively not designating HS2 as England only and demanding that we have the amounts of money from it—[Interruption.] Can I just finish this point? Honestly, I will come to you. And demanding that we have the money from it. Yes, thank you. 

I agree with you. I think it's a chronic shame that the Conservatives in Government didn't designate this as an England-only project, like they did with Scotland and Northern Ireland, and Wales received the Barnett consequentials. I agree entirely. But I do find it a little bit rich because you had five years in Government. You had the transport Minister there—Norman Baker, I think it was—and in those five years, where HS2 was in its construction stage, not one single Lib Dem made the request to make that an England-only project in those five years in Government. 

Thank you. I'll accept that. I'm not going to be standing here like I'm afraid you lot are saying 'Not my fault'. But thank you for saying that you would accept it. I think it's a disgrace that we are still where we are with HS2. I've always said that, where the Liberal Democrats have played a role in that, I accept responsibility for that. So, I'm not going to just shrug it off as a kind of 'Not my fault', because I accept that.

I do just want to make some quick other points, if I may. We heard, didn't we, from the journalist Will Hayward saying that this was the great Welsh train robbery, and that's indeed what it is. Let's accept it for what it is. It's absolutely unacceptable that we still see the situation that we're in here in Wales. I would like to hear from the Welsh Government just what they are going to do to get the HS2 consequentials in here. It's not a big ask. So, please, can we enhance the quality of the debates we have here, both on a Wednesday afternoon and specifically this one, by perhaps accepting that the asks put forward by the Plaid Cymru motion are not unreasonable and actually will help every single party in this Senedd and help the Welsh people? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I very much agree with the points that have just been made, actually. Welsh Governments have been coming to this Chamber for many, many years with 'delete all' amendments; I don't think it's ever enhanced the debate or enhanced the standing of the Government amongst all Members. I don't believe that's the correct way of approaching these debates. We should look for consensus, where possible—and that's coming from me—across the Chamber. It won't last, don't worry. But we should look towards amending motions rather than deleting them. I think that's a good principle. Because I have to say, I'm not entirely happy with either the motion or the amendment. I think there's a very real crisis for us in Wales when we talk about our rail infrastructure. It's a crisis for Wales and it's a crisis for the union.

Wales is the only part of the United Kingdom that doesn't have the power to deliver an integrated transport network. It's the only part of the UK. They can do it in Northern Ireland, they can do it in Scotland, they can do it in parts of England, independently of the UK Government. In Wales, we have to go as a supplicant to the UK Government and beg for crumbs off the table, and we all know where that largely gets us. It's a crisis, because the chronic underfunding of the Welsh rail network has happened systematically over decades. And we can point fingers across this Chamber. The Labour Party is as guilty of that as is the Conservative Party. But the responsibility on this party, as the party that has a majority here, is that we need to do something about it. We need change. [Interruption.] I'll give way.

Diolch, Alun. I wanted to press you on the points of HS2, because there's a lot where I think that we are in agreement here. Do you share my frustration with the current stance of the Welsh Government, which seems to be unclear on the HS2 billions? Keynes is credited with saying that

'When the facts change, I change my mind.'

It seems to me that, when Westminster's minds have changed, the facts are trying to be changed as well.

I don't want this debate simply to fall into a debate about whether it's this many million or that many million. What we need is structural change—structural change that means that whenever money is spent by the UK Government, Wales gets a fair Barnett consequential of that, as do Scotland and Northern Ireland, and that is done as part of a settlement that means that Wales is treated as an equal part of this union. The structural underfunding of rail in Wales means that my constituency, or the constituency I hope to stand in in the next election, has one railway that is devolved, as in the Rhymney valley line—and we've heard from Hefin David on some of those issues—which is part of the core Valleys lines, which means it will be electrified and we will have new trains and a metro system running there, but the other half of the constituency is served by the Ebbw valley line, which is not devolved, and where we have struggled for two decades to get funding for it. Tell the people of the Ebbw Fach valley why they do not have the right to the same service as the people in the Rhymney valley, and then tell those people that we have a settlement that works for Wales. It's not possible. It shouldn't happen, and we need a settlement that is fair for everybody in Wales. [Interruption.] I give way.

Alun, thanks for giving way. I accept your call that we need structural change; I think you're right there. But are you therefore as frustrated as I am, and as we are, that your own Government has put in a 'delete all' amendment and will not support this? Do you support your Government's position?

Mabon, you should've been listening to my opening remarks: I said that in the first 10 seconds. I know I take time to get warmed up, but I was hoping you might have been there before me.

The reality is that the only parts of Wales that have seen real investment—and Gareth doesn't understand this, of course; if he'd done his research, he would—are those parts of Wales where the responsibility for taking those decisions is devolved. That is the reality. There's no conspiracy, Gareth. Your Government told direct lies about this and you shouldn't defend it; you shouldn't do that. You should do your research instead. The only parts of Wales that see the investment are parts of Wales where we have devolution of responsibility. [Interruption.] I will make one more point before I allow an intervention. And that means that we need to have responsibility here. We need the full devolution of rail infrastructure to this place to enable our Government to deliver on the promises that this Government want to deliver upon.

You have a swathe of MPs in Westminster now, we had Wales questions in Parliament this afternoon, there's a Wales Office. Doesn't it beg the question to you what these Welsh Labour MPs are doing that they can't seem to influence the Government to invest in our rail services—in north Wales in my case, but then, indeed, the Ebbw Fach valley, for instance? What's your MP up to down there?

I didn't stand for election to this place to spend my time commenting about the performance of Westminster MPs. That's not why I'm here. I'm here to argue the case for the position of this Parliament and this Government, and I think that should be very clear. I'll finish on this—

Yes, please.

—before testing the Deputy Presiding Officer more on this point.

If we are serious—and this is the really serious point here—about modal change, about changing the way that our transport networks work, about connectivity across Wales, about ensuring that we're able to develop rail next to bus with active travel and all the things we've heard from Welsh Ministers over the 18 years that I've sat here, the only way that will be achieved is if those Welsh Ministers have the levers to deliver that change. We can create as many cross-border committees and boards as we like, but the reality is the Welsh Government is not an equal; the Welsh Government is currently a supplicant at that feast.

Okay. Thank you, Alun.

The Welsh Government depends on the largesse of Ministers who, historically, we have seen, have always placed Wales's needs last. That is why we need devolution; it's not constitutional posturing, it's about delivering for the people who elected me and elected all of us here to deliver on the promises that we've made to them. The Welsh Government should be campaigning for that, the Welsh Government should be helping deliver it—

Thank you, Alun.

—and the UK Government should be recognising its responsibilities.

Two competing narratives explain Wales's relative economic underdevelopment in the modern era. The first claims our fate is sealed by geography—remote villages, isolated valleys and rugged mountains condemn us to permanent disadvantage. Our economic woes are supposedly written into the very landscape itself. The second narrative, the one I hold to, recognises there's nothing inevitable about our underdevelopment. It stems not from geography, but from systematic political neglect, what economist Andre Gunder Frank called 'the development of underdevelopment'. Successful economic development isn't about nature or geography, it's about strategic institutional choices and investments that enable some places to flourish while others are condemned to failure.

I once was at an economic conference where a fairly prominent Welsh economist claimed Wales underperformed because of its topography. Too many mountains and too many villages. Some brave voice from the back piped up and said, 'What about Switzerland?' Switzerland's mountains, let's face it, make ours look like hills. Their villages are scattered across impossibly steep terrain. Yet Switzerland thrives economically, with communities that prosper and achievements that inspire global admiration.

Switzerland's secret? Well, firstly, it's an independent nation that is able to prioritise its own infrastructure needs without competing for attention from a distant capital. They invested in trains; and not just any trains, but a network built with an almost religious devotion to connectivity. Their clock-face timetable means trains arrive and depart at the same minute every hour everywhere. They're trains that don't merely transport people, they transform isolated hamlets into neighbourhoods of a single prosperous nation.

Now, compare that to Wales: our railways are largely industrial leftovers, built not to connect people but to extract resources, moving Welsh wealth out, not binding people and communities together. Add to that decades of Westminster neglect. As we've heard, they've left us without, almost—well, uniquely, I think, of any European nation—a proper north-south rail connection. The Valleys have had some investment, driven, yes, by the Welsh Government, but they still lack, don't they, east-west links? The western Valleys in rural communities—they might as well be islands because of their complete lack of rail connectivity.

And yet, when we look around the world, the evidence is clear, isn't it? Good rail creates prosperity. Rail investment sparks job creation, boosts productivity, attracts investments by expanding labour markets and cutting transportation costs. Better rail doesn't just follow economic prosperity, it actively creates it. So, think about what we've lost in Wales, cumulatively, decade after decade, generation after generation: businesses never started because founders couldn't reach customers; students unable to attend college. Our disconnection is our disadvantage, and neither are inevitable; they're the result of political choices made in London.

Now, we're not looking for charity, but parity; not subsidy, but equality. It's a modest demand that we've heard echoed across the Chamber, isn't it, that Welsh communities simply receive the same consideration, the same investment and opportunity to thrive as communities elsewhere in the UK. And when we hear the Chancellor announced continued support for that bullet train to Birmingham, the Silicon Valley express from Oxford to Cambridge, new runways at London airports and reservoirs in the south-east, whilst simultaneously postponing investment everywhere else, I'm reminded of that Korean economist Ha-Joon Chang's book, Kicking Away the Ladder, where he argues that wealthy regions and nations build their prosperity through state-led infrastructure investment before then preaching austerity to others, effectively kicking away the ladder that they climbed.

The economic centres of south-east England developed, and continue to develop, through massive public investment, while denying Wales the same path. This economic gap will persist as long as this chronic unfairness continues. My preferred answer, Deputy Presiding Officer, is to break the cycle by making the Swiss choice, solving our own problems as an independent nation. But to unionists, our argument is simple: you say you believe in the union, prove it, because for Wales, fairness or freedom will become the generational choice we must surely face sooner or later.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I have three themes that I wanted to comment on. The main one I want to comment on is actually about how we might use that investment, particularly with the north-west corridor opening of railway lines. But I have to comment on some of the issues that have been raised earlier. Certainly, my constituency, as Alun has identified, is one of those areas that has massively benefited from the investment in those areas that we actually control: the metro in terms of Pontypridd, the trains and the Valleys lines, where there has been massive transformation as a result of devolution, and the things that we've done are absolutely phenomenal. The points that are raised, of course, on those areas that we don't control, are the areas where we actually struggle for that.

But I do want to comment on the actual funding issue, because the underfunding is recognised, it is historic: there is unity about that particular issue, and I do not accept the UK Government's response to HS2 funding. I could accept an argument that says that we can not fund all the legacy of all the disastrous economic consequences of the last 14 years of Tory Government, but I believe that we have a constitutional entitlement to the Barnett funding consequential, and the response from the UK Government has been unacceptable, it's been inaccurate, it's been flawed, and I don't believe it is credible. The Tories deliberately robbed Wales of funding that we were entitled to within a system of decades of massive underfunding, and it's only because of devolution that we're now able to start reversing some of the damage that was done over decades, and particularly since privatisation, and I think we are entitled to better than that. And what is not acceptable is that the consequential funding we should be entitled to is subject to a whim of Government. It has got to be something that has a clear constitutional and structural foundation, and that is what needs to change. Now, that having been said, I do of course welcome the fact that there are conversations and discussions going that may well result in additional funding coming in. I very much welcome it, but it is not the foundation on which that should be happening.

Now, one of the areas where we could invest, were we to receive that funding, is the investment in the north-west corridor. Taff Ely, Cardiff West, my constituency and the constituency of Mark Drakeford, is likely to have a development of in the region of 10,000 new homes. A quarter of the households in both our constituencies do not have access to a car. There is no realistic non-car, public transport other than tram train, which I think is the option. The business case for that has been made, it satisfies all the decarbonisation and levelling-up criteria. And we need a decision now on the reopening of the north-west corridor railway line, which has been preserved exactly for that particular purpose. It was set out in the documents and research that my myself and the Member for Cardiff West identified. A new tram-train route via the City line and potentially utilising the route of the safeguarded corridor between Cardiff Central, junction 33 and Creigiau, an extension of the tram-train route from Creigiau to Pontyclun via Cross Inn, and an extension of the tram-train route from Creigiau to Beddau via Cross Inn, Miskin, Llantrisant and Talbot Green—that is the only solution to the development of the enormous number of homes, which we desperately need, but which cannot be solved by any road solution. And one of the reasons this issue over the structural funding of the rail infrastructure in Wales is so important is because there are things like this that should have happened, that need to happen, where the work is being done now to enable it to happen, and it will only happen when we actually get a commitment to that investment—investment that will secure public transport for the next 100 years in an area of enormous development. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's been a very interesting debate, and I do welcome many comments that have been made. I'll deal with specific ones in a moment, but I must start by saying that this is a Government that delivers. Welsh Labour delivers. We took ownership of the core Valleys lines and created a transformational metro system. We turned what was a liability into an asset, and we're improving the life chances of people across the region.

And now that we have a UK Labour Government, we will transform services across north Wales as well, increasing services by 50 per cent—50 per cent—by next year. That's as a result of an agreement between us and the UK Government that took place last year. Investment in the north Wales main line. Unlike the false promise that was offered by Rishi Sunak over electrification, the money is there, the promise is real, we will deliver. And by next year, we'll be seeing 50 per cent more services across north Wales.

And we've agreed a pipeline of rail enhancements with the Department for Transport and the Wales Office, which will transform our rail network and address injustice over funding or a lack of funding in our rail network over many years. We've long campaigned for fair rail investment in Wales, and for the first time, Dirprwy Lywydd, the UK Department for Transport Ministers and the Wales Office have recognised that Wales has suffered from historic underfunding for rail infrastructure. They have agreed with us that it must and will be addressed. Lord Hendy confirmed just last week at the Welsh Affairs Committee that the Department for Transport have submitted our rail priorities for inclusion in the spending review. He referenced the Burns review as guiding his union connectivity review and being the foundation—the foundation—for the Department for Transport's submission.

Our agreed pipeline is based on the north Wales and south-east Wales transport commissions and the union connectivity review. New stations and capacity improvements are proposed to support new rail services across communities in Wales, and we're not starting from scratch. What we are doing is building on what are some of the most developed rail plans anywhere in the UK, but which, sadly, were ignored by past Tory Governments. Today they are embraced by UK Labour Ministers.

We are also working in partnership with the UK Government, and indeed our allies, metro mayors in England, to agree a review of Network Rail investment green book processes, to ensure that Wales receives a fair share of all future rail infrastructure investment, which would finally deliver that structural change that Alun Davies spoke of.

I should say that we have already secured £39 million into our annual block grant for the ongoing maintenance and renewal of the rail infrastructure that we own—the core Valleys lines. That's what partnership in power can do. And we're seeking comparability with relevant UK Government programmes in the Barnett formula, recognising that we are now a rail infrastructure owner. I think Hefin David rightly highlighted how we've taken one of the oldest fleets of trains in Britain—one of the oldest, inherited in 2018 and comprising of just 270 trains—and we are going to be delivering one of Britain's newest fleets of trains, a vast increase of trains as well, to 484. New trains are in service across Wales; in north Wales, south Wales, east Wales and west Wales, we are introducing a huge number of new trains across the country.

Now, Carolyn Thomas talked about the history of rail in this, its two-hundredth anniversary. I was recently reading about the history of rail services in her region. It was very interesting that the borderlands line, otherwise known as the Wrexham-Bidston line, was actually known as 'the north Wales and Liverpool line' until the early twentieth century. And as a result of our agreed pipeline, we will create metro services, direct and uninterrupted, between Wrexham and Liverpool. That's the result of partnership in power. And the work will commence on infrastructure requirements around Padeswood.

Our rail priorities improve connectivity, not only within Wales but across our borders in the wider UK. It's critical to ordinary people, and indeed businesses, that we have good links with the big cities and major airports of the UK. And our priorities will improve connectivity across borders and enhance our competitiveness. In north Wales, rail services and public transport need to be configured to support cross-border functional economies, as advocated by Growth Track 360. Similarly in mid Wales, the Western Gateway partnership advocates a similar cross-border approach for south Wales and the south-west of England.

And, Dirprwy Lywydd, rail reform is coming. The system that has been broken for far too long is coming. This will deliver much-needed change to the railway industry and, strengthened by our partnership with the UK, will set the platform for further investment and improvement in Wales. [Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Thank you very much for giving way. The Cabinet Secretary talks a very, very good game, and forgive me if I've intervened too early and that you're coming around to this, but you haven't mentioned any numbers whatsoever—the kind of scale of investment that the Government is planning to put in, to make up for the lost billions, plus make up for the future billions that we are projected to lose under current Barnett spending projections. Plus, there has been no recognition that HS2 and the consequentials we are owed is completely separate from that, and that more, hundreds of millions in his eyes—billions in my eyes, and that of his colleagues—is also owed to Wales on top of that. Maybe he'll address those two.

Can I just pose a question, then? Would you support investment in rail infrastructure in Wales that amounts not just to the HS2 consequentials, but also supports a pipeline—a pipeline of improvements that reflects past underinvestment and future needs? That is precisely what we are agreeing with the UK—

If the Dirprwy Lywydd is happy for me to come back—

Absolutely.

What I'm asking here is for those two things—. I said they were separate but interconnected. Yes, we need to see the pipeline—absolutely. We've been unable to develop a pipeline because the money hasn't been there. We want to know how much money is there. But on top of what that would bring, we need the HS2 funding too.

And this is crucial. This is crucial, because when you say, 'Let's see the figures for each of those component parts', the figures are out there. But rather than constrict delivery of those projects to the estimated cost of delivery, we wish to see those projects delivered regardless of how much they eventually cost, because the story of rail—the story of rail—not just here, but around the world, is that projects concerning rail infrastructure blow budgets. They go over budget. So, I would not want to constrain our ambitions by a simple envelope of cash, but, instead, agree the projects will be delivered. [Interruption.] And the scale—the scale—is enormous.

I would like to hear the contribution from the Cabinet Secretary.

The scale is enormous. That pipeline of projects relating to Burns alone is huge—huge—and we are investing as well. We are investing in new technologies, we are investing in staff, we are investing in people, we are investing in stations right across Wales. And through partnership in power, we are commencing work to transform what is currently a liability into an asset. [Interruption.] Yes, Delyth Jewell. 

Thank you so much. Look, there is an awful lot here that we agree on and that we do welcome. Could I ask you, please, if you could answer specifically what it was in our motion that you disagreed with that meant that you had to put in a 'delete all', considering that there is so much that we agree on?

Well, I hope that you'll therefore support our amendment. I really do.

But the vote on ours comes first. 

I do not see a problem with what we have tabled whatsoever, but we have a fundamental disagreement when it comes to whether we wish to be part of a union and whether you wish—[Interruption.] No. We have a fundamental difference, because we've heard this afternoon from Members—we've heard this afternoon from numerous Members—who have said, on your benches, that, if we had the HS2 consequentials, we would have been able to spend it on rail infrastructure in Wales. But the truth is that, in an independent Wales, as I said earlier this afternoon—[Interruption.] In an independent Wales, even a full consequential, based on your estimate of £4 billion—

Cabinet Secretary—

—would be blown in no time at all, no time at all.

Cabinet Secretary. I would like to—. The Cabinet Secretary needs to finish his contribution, and he knows the timescale as well, but the benches need to let him do so as well, please, because I cannot hear his contribution because of the noise from my left. 

And this is the inescapable truth, the objective truth, and, for yourselves, the very uneasy truth, that, in an independent Wales, which you wish to see, any HS2 consequential would be lost in a matter of months, based on your own figures—your own figures that you have embraced. And it would be lost without any improvements to show for it in rail infrastructure. Instead, we are working in partnership with the UK Government, and we will deliver that pipeline of enhancements across Wales.

I call on Heledd Fychan to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. If you want a debate about independence, we'll have a debate about independence. Please table one in Government time, because this is not a debate about independence today. And thank you too for confirming what we've all feared since the election, that the Welsh Government are just now the UK Government's spokespersons here in this Chamber. Jane Dodds was completely right to ask the very, very pertinent question of what's wrong with the demands in the motion. And Alun Davies was completely right; we should be seeking common ground. On things that matter to people in our communities, on things that make a difference, we should be seeking common ground, because we all know of the issues that are there. Nor is this a debate about Transport for Wales. That's not what this debate is about. So, we can try and state some of the things that are happening, yes, welcome some of the investment we've seen, but that doesn't detract from the fact that Wales has suffered historic underfunding and there is no light at the end of the tunnel in terms of that remedy at present. 

You have heard the arguments. They are arguments that are based on facts. We've seen this Welsh Government, unfortunately, in putting forward this amendment and seeking to justify it—although they haven't even tried to justify it, truth be told, in the response—turning their back on their principles, turning their back on the people of Wales, and, unfortunately, putting the interests of Keir Starmer and the Labour Party before the interests of Wales. And there is no denying the truth at the heart of this debate, namely that Wales is being deprived of the investment in its railways that we need and that we deserve. 

The Secretary of State for Transport in the UK has admitted that Wales has historically suffered very low levels of expenditure on rail improvements, and the figures speak for themselves. Between 2019 and 2029, Wales will face a deficit of between £2.4 billion and £5.1 billion in funding to improve the railways as compared to our population and the size of our network. This systematic underfunding is even more shocking bearing in mind the consequentials for HS2 also haven’t been given to us, an injustice the current Government needs to address.

Yet, despite these damning admissions, the UK Government continues to deepen this inequity. The reported freeze on major new rail projects until after the next UK general election only serves to entrench Wales’s underinvestment for years to come, and even the pledges that have been made to people in Wales—vital commitments from the UK Government, such as electrifying the north Wales main line—they remain unfulfilled. What makes things even more unacceptable is that Labour MSs in this very Chamber have previously called for Wales to receive HS2 consequentials, and yet today the Welsh Government has tabled an amendment removing this call. They’ve acknowledged even today during the debate the unfairness of the current situation. We didn’t hear that from the Cabinet Secretary. Yet party leadership in Westminster refuses to ask—[Interruption.] Oh, sorry.

Thank you for saying that, and would you agree with me that it seems that there may be agreement across the Labour benches in terms of HS2 consequentials coming here to Wales, and that the motion in terms of what you’ve set down may be something that is agreed and accepted by Welsh Labour? So, would it be the case that you would expect that there might be a change of mind here and that, actually, we might see Welsh Labour actually voting for your motion and therefore actually showing that we can all work together when it comes to something so important as this? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for that intervention, Jane. I’m a similar kind of politician to you in terms of I would hope that that logic would work, that, where we agree, we can unite, and I would ask Labour colleagues who expressed their commitment today to what’s actually in our motion, not the amendment, to reflect on that when voting. We are constrained by the fact, sometimes, that we’re told to vote in a certain way. This is important for our communities and I would hope it’s not too late for Labour to say that they won’t be going forward with their amendment. So, perhaps you would like to reflect on that so that we can unite, because these are things we used to agree on. Only a few months ago, you used to agree with us, so why vote against a motion that you used to agree with? And some of you still do. So, I would urge, if we could have one united voice today—. Wouldn’t it be so much stronger, if we as a Senedd were able to unite? Send that clear message: the position as it is is unacceptable and we demand action.

Will you take an intervention? Again, on this notion of uniting, I can certainly unite, as I said earlier, behind the Cabinet Secretary’s ambitions around a pipeline of projects, but the truth of the matter is they're a pipeline of projects that should be happening anyway, and the fact that we have been denied funding over the years makes us somehow have to feel incredibly grateful for getting what we should be getting anyway. 

Absolutely. That’s the crux of the matter. We should be standing firm that HS2 is an England-only project and that Wales must receive its fair share of consequential. That’s one thing where the Conservatives were willing to stand up to the UK Conservative Government. I wish that you would be able to do the same, and I hope you will by supporting our motion today.

Further, I hope we can unite to demand that the UK Government reverses decades of underfunding and finally delivers the investment our rail network desperately needs. This is about ambition, it is about fairness, it is about parity and equity, and it is about standing up for Wales and our communities. We cannot allow Westminster to continue to treat us as an afterthought. The status quo is failing our people, as outlined by Luke Fletcher, it’s failing our economy, it’s also failing our future. It is time for Wales to receive the rail infrastructure that we need and that we deserve. I ask every Member of this Senedd: support today’s motion unamended. Send that message. We should be united on this.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. I will therefore defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.