7. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the Sentencing Council to ensure that sentencing guidelines adequately reflect Welsh law? OQ62134

Diolch, Rhys. Sentencing is not a devolved matter, but, as a law officer, I do take a keen interest in sentencing guidelines and their application to offences in devolved areas.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Now, section 124 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 gives power to the Lord Chancellor to propose that sentencing guidelines are amended. In light of the change to the devolution settlement and primary law-making power coming into force, since that legislation was passed, I would expect that a proposal from the Counsel General involving Welsh law—a law only to do with Wales—would carry equal weight. Now, following the Government's response to Carolyn Thomas's Member debate, that they will not be introducing a pet abduction Act during this Senedd, will you write to the Sentencing Council requesting that the theft guidelines are amended to reflect that pets are far more than mere property and the terrible emotional distress it has on owners when pets are taken, to be reflected in the sentencing guidelines for theft? Diolch yn fawr.

Yes. Thank you, Rhys. I mean, I know you know how this works. So, the Sentencing Council is an independent non-departmental body, and it operates at arm's length from the Government. It's accountable to the UK Parliament for delivering its statutory obligations. I have, though, had the opportunity to discuss sentencing issues on a much wider basis than your question—which I'll come to in a moment—with a number of law officers only last week, where I brought up a number of issues that we're concerned about. I'm particularly concerned, and my colleague Jane Hutt has been working in this area for many years, about the number of short sentences, for example. I have Swansea prison in my Constituency, right in the centre. There's a large number of young men in that prison who have sentences that appear to me to be designed perfectly to make sure they have no further life chances, but nothing to recommend it. So, if you're imprisoned for nine months, it's just enough to make sure that you have a record, that you have family problems, that you lose your home, and that you lose any job that you had, and nothing like enough to get you any kind of substance abuse support—well, any support, really, that you want. So, I have made the point repeatedly that those sentences are very poorly designed and likely to have a detrimental impact on pretty much everyone. It's a view shared by virtually every governor of Swansea prison I've spoken to, and I've spoken to a lot of them over the years. So, I've had that wider discussion.

Theft and pet theft, I agree, is very traumatic. I'm happy to make the views of the Welsh Government known about that, but, I mean, it is not a devolved matter. But I'm very happy to do that—very happy to do that cross-party, if people are happy to do that. But it would be just making our views known; we don't have any actual agency in that area.

I did try to bring the pet abduction Bill forward, recognising that, very often, theft is just heard in the magistrates' court and sentencing is not high enough. But pets are actually priceless. Even when heard in the magistrates' court, sentencing is not strict enough; they usually have suspended sentences. I'd like to just read this out to you: 'Losing Angel was like losing my life. Angel was my best friend. I spent more than £13,000 trying to get her back. I remortgaged our house, took unpaid leave, I didn't work for a long time. I couldn't concentrate. I started smoking again, lost weight, and ended up in divorce.' Five years on, Dawn still has no closure on this. I thank Rhys for raising this, and I do hope that a line could be actually made. I believe that Professor John Cooper KC asked if a tweak to the existing theft Act could be made. Apparently, mushrooms and wild animals are already detailed, so why not pets? The word 'property' makes pet owners uncomfortable, because pets are more than just property. So, if you could take that forward for me and for everybody here that spoke on it, that would be really appreciated. Thank you.

Thank you, Carolyn. I absolutely understand what you're saying. I've had pets all my life; I understand that they're part of your household and very much not a piece of property, so I do absolutely understand that. I'm very happy, Llywydd, to discuss with you how we might do something cross-party, perhaps. As I say, it's not something that I can do with my Counsel General hat on, but I have every sympathy with the sentiment expressed.

That's a very positive note to end that question session on.