Item 7 is next, a motion under Standing Order 26.79 to withdraw the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, the Trefnydd, to move this motion—Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM8658 Jane Hutt

To propose that Senedd Cymru, in accordance with Standing Order 26.79:

Agrees that the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill may be withdrawn.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. Members will now be aware of our intention as a Government not to proceed with the Bill and to focus instead on publishing guidance for political parties so that they can take voluntary steps in order to ensure equal representation in this Senedd in terms of gender from 2026.

And in my written statement of 16 September, I informed Members of the Government's intention to seek to withdraw the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill from further Senedd scrutiny at this time, and, as the general principles of the Bill have already been agreed, Standing Orders require that it may now only be withdrawn with the agreement of the majority of Members of the Senedd. It is for that reason that we're debating and voting on this motion today.

The First Minister confirmed in her statement on Government priorities last week the need to focus for the remainder of this Senedd on the four key areas of a healthier Wales, green jobs and growth, opportunity for every family, and connecting communities, and that work on the electoral candidate lists Bill would be paused for the time being. But, to be clear, whilst we have taken the difficult decision not to pursue primary legislation at this time, this Government remains committed to a gender-balanced Senedd and to increasing the diversity of elected representatives in Wales more generally. To that end, we've refocused our efforts in order to accelerate work on the new diversity and inclusion guidance for political parties, which we will be publishing under section 30 of the recently passed Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024. We'll be shortly consulting on this guidance, and intend to publish it well in advance of the scheduled election in 2026. It will, amongst other things, encourage political parties to consider what steps they can take to support the aim of achieving a more balanced and representative Senedd through their candidate selection, which of course is an aim that we subscribe to in terms of Senedd reform.

Introducing the electoral candidate lists Bill, and, in particular, the Stage 1 scrutiny process, has been a valuable exercise, and I want to put on record my thanks to the scrutiny committees, Chairs, Members and support teams for their work and for their comprehensive reports at the end of Stage 1. I'm also immensely grateful to everyone who gave their time to contribute to the scrutiny process for providing such a wealth of evidence on a range of issues, from policy to legislative competence, to the practical considerations that would have been so important in implementing the quotas. And we will be drawing on this evidence as we prepare the diversity and inclusion guidance. As Member in charge of the Bill, I've listened to how all political groups within the Senedd have said they're committed to increasing diversity in the Senedd, including improving the representation of women.

Now, we as Members recognise that each of our parties has a shared responsibility to do what is required to make that happen. I'm confident that the guidance we'll be issuing shortly will be a vital tool to support political parties to consider what steps they can take to contribute to the shared ambition of returning a strong and diverse Senedd, representative of the people of Wales. We've not taken the decision to seek to withdraw the electoral candidate lists Bill lightly, and I'm well aware, from the conversations I've had with a range of partners over the past week, that this has come as a great disappointment to many of our stakeholders.

I'm heartened, though, by the level of understanding that's been expressed during these conversations and by the recognition amongst supporters of this Bill that, whilst this Government does not intend to pursue legislative measures at this time, a future administration may decide to take this forward. And Llywydd, I do believe the review process built into the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024, will provide an important opportunity for the next Senedd and incoming Government to take stock of where things stand following the 2026 election and to consider what has been achieved through the range of measures that will have been put in place by that time. And I very much hope that these considerations will be informed by information that will be available from parties about the diversity of their candidates and Members of the Senedd, which of course will be clear to see in this expanded and reformed Chamber.

The 2026 election and the profile of the seventh Senedd will be a real test of political will and commitment to this agenda. And if the expanded Senedd of 96 Members is not representative of the gender make-up of the diverse population of Wales, there will be a need to ask again why that is the case and what can be done about it. And of course, should a future Government wish to pick up the baton and pursue legislative quotas, it will have at its disposal the wealth of evidence and experience that has been shared by stakeholders and partners who contributed during the course of the Bill's scrutiny.

So, I finally want to take this opportunity to assure stakeholders that the knowledge, expertise and information they've provided in developing this legislation remains invaluable in the ongoing development of our diversity and inclusion guidance. I made that commitment when I met a range of stakeholders last week. We'll be working closely with them and with Members across this Chamber, all political parties, as we finalise the guidance and work with political parties to maximise its impact ahead of the 2026 elections. And whilst recognising, Llywydd, that this is not the outcome that many of us were hoping for, I will ask all Members to support the motion to withdraw the Bill.

Can I thank the Minister for the way that she has communicated with me and, no doubt, spokespersons in other groups, about the Government's decision to withdraw this Bill, or to seek permission to withdraw this particular Bill? As the Minister will know, my party has never had a beef with the aim of the Welsh Government, which is to improve the diversity of this Senedd. We have had a beef in the means to achieve that, and that is why we set out our opposition to the proposals to establish a gender quota system, as outlined in this particular legislation, because we always knew that it was outside the competence of the Senedd and it was focusing on one particular aspect of diversity without giving due and proper consideration to those other aspects of diversity that we also need to improve upon if we're to be truly reflective of the populations across Wales that we serve. 

And our view on competence was informed by the views of the many legal experts that came before the Senedd reform committee to tell us that the Bill, as proposed, was outside the competence of the Senedd. That was also the Llywydd's conclusion, it was the conclusion of the legal experts who gave advice to the Senedd reform committee, and of many of the people who submitted evidence as well, including, I will say, the former Counsel General designate of the Welsh Government, Elisabeth Jones, who herself was, over the summer, responsible for giving legal advice to the Welsh Government. So, obviously, we've had a First Minister who says she's been on a summer listening exercise; it's very clear, I think, that she has finally listened to the chorus of voices and legal experts who have been telling the Welsh Government for a long time now that this Bill was outside the competence of the Senedd.

And I have to say that it is very, very disappointing that millions of pounds—and it is millions of pounds—and lots of time, lots of energy, have been spent by Members of this Senedd and the Welsh Government on pursuing this futile piece of work, given the fact that we do not have the competence to be able to introduce this legislation. And that, of course, is millions of pounds and many hours of people's time and energy that could have been spent on trying to get to grips with those other things that are people's priorities across Wales: the problems in our NHS, problems in our school system, the challenges in the Welsh economy, the housing crisis, which you've presided over for 25 years. And not only that, but we also know—we also know—that the public was not on the same page as the Welsh Government on this either. YouGov polling on gender quotas was absolutely clear that three in one of the Welsh population, three people to every one person in the Welsh population, opposed this Bill, including that the overwhelming majority—two thirds—of women in Wales opposed gender quotas.

So, I'm pleased to see the back of this legislation. I hope it never returns, because we don't have the competence to be able to deliver it. It wasn't even, actually, delivering on the agreement that was made by the previous Welsh Labour leader in the Senedd, Mark Drakeford, and the previous Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price, because of course you had come up with an agreement, a political agreement, for gender zipped lists with candidates. This Bill was not about gender zipped lists, it was about a minimum percentage of women candidates being at 50 per cent, whereas you could have up to 99 per cent or 100 per cent. No, that is true; that is what this particular Bill would have allowed for, in principle, was up to 100 per cent women candidates, but not above 50 per cent in terms of male candidates. That's not the sort of approach, I think, that is right on these particular issues.

Now, where we do agree, Minister, is the alternative that you're now pursuing, something that we have advocated for on these benches for a long time, and that is to develop on a co-operative basis, a cross-party basis, some diversity and inclusion guidance that all political parties can pick up and use in order to promote diversity on a voluntary basis amongst our political movements. That's the right way to do these things. There are different approaches to achieve the same ends, and they're the things that I want to work with you to develop, in order that we can have a Senedd that is fit for the future, that is more representative of the diverse communities that we serve and that does not put just one aspect of diversity above others.

Thank you. Well, I think that speech has emphasised why exactly we need this Bill.

Guidance doesn't work. It hasn't worked, and I was clear from hearing the evidence as part of the scrutiny why this was absolutely essential if we were to develop the kind of democracy that we want to see.

I'd like to start by emphasising how disappointed the Plaid Cymru group is in seeing the Welsh Government turning its back on this Bill. As a group, we are united and entirely supportive of the Bill, and we will be voting against the motion before us today. I'd also ask the Government to reconsider, and that the Labour Members who do support this Bill oppose the motion to withdraw it. After all, as was said when the Bill was introduced by the Government and by us on the Plaid Cymru benches, passing this Bill would have been an opportunity to build on what has been one of the successes of devolution, namely the promotion of women in politics. Ensuring an equal number of Members on the basis of gender in 2003 was something that received international attention, but there are 21 years since then, and we haven't achieved that since 2003.

So, yes, we also have for the first time in our history a First Minister who is a woman—an important milestone in the history of this Senedd. But how disappointing is to see that one of the first actions of the Government under her leadership is to withdraw a Bill that would help other women to achieve that same role? Because let us not pretend today that the battle for equality in Wales is over, and that we don't need to take specific steps to ensure equal representation of women in public life; it's an ongoing battle. That's why guidance doesn't work, and a number of us in this Siambr continue to face challenges on a daily basis, with people still asking silly questions such as, 'Is your husband happy to mind the children?' if they see us at our work as Members of the Senedd. Which of the men in this Senedd has ever been asked such a question?

And as has been clear in previous discussions on the Bill, and as was clear in the scrutiny process by the Reform Bill Committee, of course there were questions that arose in terms of the Senedd's competence to legislate on this, but with a Labour Government now in power in Westminster, it would have been possible to ensure that that ambiguity was eradicated by delivering the powers to Wales to do this. So, I would like to know from the Trefnydd: what discussions were had with the new Government in that regard, or did you not even try? It's important that we as a Senedd know the truth in this regard, and I am concerned about what this will mean in terms of candidates in 2026 and who will be elected, because evidence on the ground demonstrated that the Bill was working, with more women than ever before, since I became involved in Plaid Cymru certainly, declaring an interest in standing for election for the party. There was genuine excitement amongst so many that the Senedd would be taking these steps, and I'm concerned what this step of withdrawing the Bill will mean now in terms of that enthusiasm.

If the Government has its way today, then we as political parties need to commit to ensuring that we will take the necessary steps to utilise selection processes that will implement the principles of the Bill—not just note the guidance, but take action. The democracy of Wales will suffer if we don't take those steps, and of course we need to go beyond gender equality too. We need a Senedd that is entirely representative of the people of Wales. But that isn't an excuse for not taking action now on this. This isn't good enough. This Bill would have made a positive difference to this Senedd, it would have been a historic step in the history of this Senedd, and it's extremely disappointing that this latest Government doesn't have the same ambition in terms of democracy as was demonstrated a few months ago when the Bill was put forward. So, I ask you to reconsider and to commit to continue with this Bill in the time remaining before the 2026 election.

I think it is a great shame that the Bill has had to be withdrawn. The Bill did show our ambition to take this place, our national Parliament, a step towards being fully representative of the public that we serve in Wales, and I do hope that this may be picked up in the future by future Governments. However, I think it is very important, as the Trefnydd has said, that we make sure that all the expertise and evidence that was given during this period is not lost, that we reassure all those bodies and all those people who are committed to a more representative body, to make sure that we show that we are still committed to it and we will use every other means that we can to make sure it happens. So, I think it is absolutely crucial that we concentrate on doing guidance that can be as clear, as inclusive and as encouraging as possible.

It's good that we will be able to work on that, all parties together, but I do think that there is a big onus on political parties to use the powers that they have to ensure that their parties are fully representative of the public that we represent. When the Senedd started, in the Labour Party, we had a twinning exercise. There was blood on the floor—[Laughter.]—but it was very successful, and we have consistently, since then, in the Labour Party, had more women than men in our group. We have had women in prominent positions, and now a woman First Minister. So, I think that that difficult period that we went through did produce the goods, and I hope that my party now will do all that it can within our means to ensure that we carry on the tradition that we have managed to get more women MSs and AMs within Labour. I think this is something that we must all think about as political parties, because it's not always easy to do these things. But I do think that it has made a huge difference, having so many women in the Senedd; it's made it a different, distinctive place.

When I went to Westminster in 1997, there were four women out of 40 men and women, so four women MPs from Wales, and there has been a lot of progress since then. I think there is a recognition now that it's important for women to be fully represented, because of the needs of people in the public to recognise themselves in the people that are here, and, of course, that applies to black, Asian and minority ethnic candidates as well, and also to disabled candidates. So, we have got a huge job to do, but I don't think we should be set back or discouraged by this. We need to use the powers that we have, and particularly the powers that we have within our political parties to try to make sure that we can move forward strongly to the sort of representation of Wales that we want.

I'm going to start with two quotations:

'Evidence from around the world shows that increasing the number of women legislators can lead to a more effective legislature, and over 130 countries, including Ireland, use quotas for this purpose.'

'It’s a vital part, this Bill, of the full package of Senedd reform measures, and now it’s time to seize the opportunity and move forward with the Bill.'

That was the Welsh Government's contention when the Senedd was asked only two months ago to agree the general principles of this Bill. And as to the question of legislative competence, it was reiterated that the Welsh Government considered the Bill to be within the Senedd's competence. As was pointed out by Plaid Cymru in that debate, the new political context since the UK general election meant that any issue on that front could be put beyond doubt with the much vaunted co-operation of the new UK Labour Government with the new Labour Government in Wales.

And, of course, there had already been steps to protect the outcome and integrity of the 2026 Senedd election by delaying the implementation of this Bill until the 2030 election. So, what on earth has changed? Why should we no longer seize the moment? Why is this Bill no longer a vital part of the package of Senedd reform measures? Why has this Government decided that gender equality should not be prioritised, that effective governance and a healthy democracy are not crucially important? 

There is a risk here of a very damaging message being sent to Welsh citizens in light of this short-sighted decision. The job of a Government is to lead. To make the case. I heard a now former Welsh Government Minister make an extremely important point relating to this kind of leadership in an interview with Radio Wales last week. He said that there is a danger with good policies that we undermine them with a change of tone, and this risks, then, being able to change the attitudes that we want to change, to have the cultural change that is intended. Because this is a very big change of tone. It is, in fact, a complete abandonment, which could signal that steps to ensure equality are not important, are not possible, are not desirable, are not vital.

Only two months ago in this Siambr, the Government said, 

'we are taking this forward to put this in statute, so it cannot be as a result just of voluntary action, and the whim of any political party.'

But now that's okay. That's the way. That's sufficient. And it didn't have to be withdrawn. If Labour Members feel—. I want to make sure that they understand that. It didn't have to be withdrawn; it's not an act of God, it's an act of this Government.

I am bitterly disappointed and disturbed at the lack of leadership and this change of direction from this Government and this First Minister who, while celebrating the fact—rightly—that she is Wales's first female in that role, is now binning the very Bill that would ensure that women have an equal voice in this Senedd. Siomedig. Cywilyddus.

I am deeply concerned when I hear Labour sources being quoted by political reporters regarding measures like this as 'guff', as opposed to bread-and-butter issues. How dare you signal by this decision that ensuring gender equality in our democracy is not a bread-and-butter issue? There is nothing more bread-and-butter. Women make up half our population—more than half our population—and any form of gender inequality means that we as a nation are not able to fulfil our potential. You're aligning yourselves with some very regressive and reactionary voices and forces.

So, I am absolutely determined that Wales needs a Plaid Cymru Government, who will offer leadership, who will make the case for gender equality as a clear and unequivocal expression of a fair, just, effective and legitimate democracy, and never yield on that principle that gender quotas would lead to this in the most effective way.

Countries across the world have introduced legislation to ensure that women's voices are not ignored, or worse, silenced. One hundred and thirty-eight countries have adopted legislation on gender quotas at the parliamentary level. Doing it on a voluntary basis does not work. Giving guidance, it doesn't work, because we are still where we are decades later. The best way to ensure that there is not a further decrease in the percentage of women in the new enlarged Senedd is through legislation.

Like Heledd and Darren, I was on the committee. I was honoured to be on the committee. I was honoured to listen to the voices of those experts, those people who are experienced in this area, from academia, from backgrounds working with legislatures across the world. Time, energy, experience, skills. We spent time, we spent money, and it's just been thrown down the drain.

It is therefore with great bitterness—and I really mean that—that I stand here today facing—and I don't want to get too personal—but two women who are doing their utmost to reinforce the glass ceiling that so many women before them have endeavoured to break through. I always thought that the Welsh Government had real guts—real guts—to stand up for equality and what they believed in, but this is so disappointing. 

Like Sioned, I also thought that a Labour Government in London would mean that we could get this legislation through—that there would be no barriers. I thought that this was our chance—our chance to change things and make things better for over 50 per cent of the population here in Wales. If not now, then when? I therefore call on the Senedd to reject this woeful motion by the Cabinet Secretary, which threatens to undermine the progress made by women here in Wales and beyond. Diolch yn fawr. 

I understand the reasons presented but would like to speak to the motion as a woman with 20 years in politics. My children were young when I started at community level, and I lobbied for the cohort that I belonged to—for play provision, childcare and education, for music services and rural transport—getting my voice heard in a world that suffers from unconscious bias and a tendency to elect white men in all levels of politics.

A soft voice is sometimes hard to hear—I know I’ve got a soft voice—to garner presence. But, generally, women are good at detail that might otherwise be missed. It’s a winning tool that helps get the attention. There are different ways to use all your tools. You don’t have to have a loud voice, but if you do your research, you get there in the end.

Aid agencies say that giving aid through women usually ensures that it is spent wisely. There are over 100 Parliaments with gender quotas in place, as has been mentioned already, and they have brought greater representation of the population. I have been really proud to speak on what we were trying to achieve in Wales when I have been meeting representatives from all the different Parliaments across the world. So, I am disappointed about what’s happening.  

We also need to make sure that we have good representation of different socioeconomic backgrounds, of people who can relate to financial health work and housing struggles. That reflects the majority of our residents. Going forward, I hope that political groups will take all of this on board, and that we will have gender equality and work towards a Senedd representative of our population, to ensure that those with quiet voices are always heard. Thank you.

As Chair of the cross-party group on women in this Senedd, I do urge the Senedd today to vote against the withdrawal of this Bill. We have agreed the general principles. There is no reason whatsoever to put the Bill to one side very late in the day.

Creating a larger Senedd, elected in a way that moves us towards putting value on every vote, is an important step for the democracy of our nation, and that legislation has already been passed. But, creating a Senedd that doesn’t have equality at its heart in legislation is a very serious error. It’s a missed opportunity and it is an unacceptable sign that gender equality, somehow, doesn’t matter.

So, we must continue with the journey of this Bill the Senedd. It is crucial if we are serious about creating a legislature that is equal in terms of representation. I know that doubts have been raised and that an outline of possible risks has been put forward, but there was an extended timetable in place. This Senedd could have discussed and passed the Bill, and implemented the quotas in 2030, providing years—years—in order to resolve any legal issues that may arise following the passing of the Bill. So, I’m extremely disappointed that the Government wishes to withdraw the Bill, rather than allowing the voice of this Senedd to be heard—to pass the legislation and then to work on finding solutions to any problems.

I have proposed a very practical way forward if legal problems were to arise, namely passing the Bill in this Senedd and then asking for an Order in Council under section 109, in order to give competence to the Senedd in a retrospective provision.

An Order in Council under section 109.

And it's not me saying this; this is the view of lawyers on an entirely pragmatic way forward if problems were to arise having passed the legislation.

But, of course, in order to move forward with such an Order, you would need the support of the UK Government. And when the Labour Government was elected, I had hoped that the political will would be in place. I didn't expect it from the previous Government, but, when a Labour Government was elected, I thought, 'Here we go, the political will will now ensure that we are able to resolve the legal problems and move forward.' It appears that that isn't the situation, and that is hugely disappointing. It's only by putting a statutory mechanism in place that we can create a Senedd that is truly equal in terms of gender and which is, therefore, more effective in terms of improving the lives of everyone who lives in our country. Without quotas, the reform package is incomplete, and the withdrawal of this Bill is a missed opportunity to generate a really important change, and I don't know when that opportunity will present itself again.

So, I do encourage you to reject the proposal made by Government, to refuse to withdraw the Bill that we've agreed on its general principles. Let the democratic voice of this institution be heard. I haven't been convinced that there is a rational argument being made by Government on the withdrawal. So, what is the reason? In summarising the debate, perhaps the Cabinet Secretary can explain to us exactly why the Government has brought this motion forward today.

I'm hugely disappointed that we are where we are today. I think it raises some level of concern about putting Bills forward when they're questionable whether we have the powers to exercise what we want. So, my first question will be that we don't do that again. I gave evidence on behalf of the caucus committee—the women's caucus—and I believed every word that I said. I do think that we should have 50 per cent quota, and I will work really hard to achieve that in the future.

And I do feel really strongly, I have to say, about some of the things that have been mentioned, particularly by Plaid Members, about that softening, if you like, of the importance of women in this place, or any other place. And I'll give an example towards that. The 2007 landslide for Labour—no, the 1997 landslide for Labour—when Tony Blair came into power, changed the landscape, the tone of debate in a UK Parliament for the very first time. Of course, the media called them 'Blair's babes'—the biggest insult of all time. And it really was the biggest insult of all time. They suffered lots and lots from the opposition parties, mainly the Tories, in the way they were treated in the Chamber. We've come through that now, mostly, but it changed the way that policies were talked about, because, if you track any debate before that, you didn't talk about ending violence against women and girls, you didn't ever hear anybody mention work-life balance, you didn't hear anybody standing up in the Chamber talking about childcare. So, it really matters that women's voices are heard at the highest and most influential level.

I will say this much: political parties have to look at themselves—and there's a good example over here—about how they choose their candidates. They can't allow themselves to hide behind legislation to do the job for them. There is a job for political parties. We did it for the first elections here, and if you think that was a walk in the park, I can assure you, I walked in that park and it wasn't a walk in the park. There were lots of people here and it was highly contested, and people were—and I was one of them—treated quite badly for supporting it, as were other male colleagues in this room, too, I have to say.

So, the importance of bringing people forward and with us is there. We also faced the same challenges, saying, 'Well, where are these women coming from?’' like we didn't exist, like there wasn't 50 per cent of women in Wales. So, I wonder where they were coming from. Where they came from was through the same process as where men came from. They had the same interviews, they had the same questionnaires. Even having gone through all of that, I heard people say, 'I don't think that was right.' I said, 'Well, which part didn't you think was right?' 'I don't think it was right that women were given this chance.' I said, 'What, the same chance as men?' I never heard it the other way around.

So, the importance of this Bill cannot be understated and I am hugely, deeply disappointed that we are where we are today. I think we should have done some checks and balances on whether it was going to see the passage that we would hope that it would arrive at and would become policy. I was deeply concerned that we would end up where we are today. I said it on several occasions, and here we are. So, it's with a heavy heart that I will support what the Government has put through, but I will ask the Government in future—any Government in future—not to do what I believe we've done, and that is raise false hope.

I think this is one of the most profoundly depressing moments that I've ever had in politics because what the Government is inviting Members of this Senedd to do is to vote against their principles, because a majority have already voted in favour of the principle of this Bill, and what has changed? Did we know that there were two conflicting views in terms of the question of legislative competence? Yes, we did. I'm one of the few people in this room that actually saw the legal advice. I can't talk in detail about it, but I know that, right at the very beginning, we knew that there were two different views, and yet Minister after Minister came to that despatch box to say confidently that it was the Government's view, and remained the Government's view, that it was within the legislative competence of this place. So, that hasn't changed.

Is it, as it was framed in the written statement, as a result of the change in leadership to the new First Minister and the Government looking at where it could achieve tangible outcomes, on the people's priorities, that this issue of having representation that reflected our society as a whole, including women that are so underrepresented, that that somehow wasn't important, it wasn't a priority? I don't think that's the Government's position, surely. For those who say that this question is somehow a distraction and it's not at the core of delivery, of delivering better outcomes for people, we have to reject that, surely, don't we? We have to reject that.

Why is it that social care has always been the poor relation to healthcare, that we don't have universal childcare? It's because women's voices are not represented in democracies around the world, and so the unfair burden of caring that is placed upon women is not reflected in the policy priorities of our Governments. And even within the health service, women's health is not actually given—as we've heard so movingly, so powerfully from many of the women's voices that are here—the priority that it deserves. And that's reflected in policy after policy after policy. In our economy, the gender gap is not reflected at the heart of our economic development policy, even though it is so crucial in terms of realising our potential. These are core questions to delivering for our people, which is why this Bill is so important. It's absolutely central in terms of achieving the democracy that we can and should be.

What has changed? Well, I'll tell you what has changed. We've had a Labour Government elected at Westminster—the irony of it; a Labour Government in Westminster that it's clear would impose a veto. They wouldn't support a section 109. And what we are seeing here is the Labour Party trying to avoid the embarrassment of the Labour Party here in the Senedd and the Labour Party at Westminster being at loggerheads. And that's a terrible indictment, isn't it? That's a terrible indictment of where we find ourselves. 

And we have the Conservative Party coming to the rescue of Government, because the Government doesn't have a majority. If the opposition parties all voted against this motion to withdraw, then the Bill would still stand. And so, we have the Labour Party at Westminster basically imposing a Conservative policy in terms of legislative gender quotas, just as we've seen—. I would have hoped, and it was my belief, actually, that even if the question of legislative competence wasn't clear, the election of a Labour Government in Westminster would help us, as I expected it to help us with Tata as well. And instead of that, what we are seeing, unfortunately, here is an alliance—an alliance that I never wanted to see—of the Labour and Conservative benches, which is going to actually take away the only realistic hope of achieving a gender-balanced Parliament. 

I have the deepest respect for the Trefnydd, but you know and I know that the evidence that was in the explanatory notes demonstrated that there are only six Parliaments in the world that have achieved at least 50 per cent representation of women out of almost 200. We will not achieve a gender-balanced Senedd unless we legislate in favour of it, and— 

Will you take an intervention? 

I will, certainly. 

I think it's a really important point that you make that we need to aspire to making sure that there is a level playing field in terms of gender representation. You've just used a statistic saying that there are only six out of over 200 Parliaments in the world that have achieved that. We've achieved that without gender quotas. And with greater effort and well-developed guidance that we can work on together to make sure that it is effective, that it's got the ability to be adopted by all of our political parties, I'm confident that we can get there without gender quotas.  

We achieved it once in one election and we went backwards, and that's the reality of the situation. If you want to have gender balance consistently, you need to write it into the fabric of your constitution. This is what this Bill does. I'm sorry to see that the Labour Government here are now resiling from that. I look forward to the election of a Plaid Cymru Government, when we will bring this back.  

The Cabinet Secretary now to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone across the Senedd this afternoon for this very important debate. 

I do hope we can come through this. It's a disappointing moment, but an important moment in terms of what we can practically do in this Senedd by actually committing across this Chamber to a gender-balanced Senedd, getting more women into politics, but also more diversity into a more representative democratic Senedd here in 2026. That, I hope, coming out of this debate, will be clear to the people of Wales—that we want the next Senedd in 2026 to be representative of the diverse people of Wales, including that gender balance that we hold so dear and I hope is reflected in that commitment across this Chamber. 

I want to thank all the speakers this afternoon, particularly the women who have spoken about their own experience and their political commitment. I do hope that you will recognise that this Bill, the evidence we took, the proposed quotas model, was based on international good practice. That's been acknowledged again this afternoon—for those who sat on the Reform Bill Committee—grounded in research and evidence, including fantastic evidence from our women's caucus, led by Joyce Watson. And isn't it good we've got a women's caucus now? I understand there's going to be a women's caucus in Westminster, and we've got more representation of women, again, in Westminster. I was privileged to meet many of them over the weekend. There are more Labour women and Plaid Cymru women in Westminster. No Tories at all in Westminster, but we are there. And many more women—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] Unfortunately.

Llywydd, I haven't got much time, I know, but can I just say we must recognise the evidence that came—[Interruption.] Are you going to listen, Darren, to me? Please. The evidence that came through the work that was done by the Reform Bill Committee, and, indeed, the Finance Committee, played its part as well, and showed the positive and unique contribution that women can make to the political process. That's the point of this, about how we can ensure that this delivers a more representative and effective democracy, and that was the basis of our legal argument. And during scrutiny, we did see a real desire from all parties, and key stakeholders, to see more women in politics and a recognition that we need to be active on a number of fronts to achieve this.

We're not able to take forward the legislation at this time, but we're progressing work on diversity and inclusion guidance for political parties. [Interruption.] We didn't perhaps take much notice, at the time—I will give way in a moment—of section 30 of the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024, when we were passing it, but it is going to help to improve diversity in our politics, not just enabling us to have more women in public office, but ensure that there is greater diversity as well. So, I am urging people and political parties to take this seriously and help us move to deliver that guidance. We are under a duty, as Welsh Ministers, to publish that guidance. Sioned.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. I still haven't heard why. On the points that Siân Gwenllian, Adam Price and others have made, what has changed? Because you already knew all this. Everything that you've said in your response, we already knew when you asked us to pass the principles of the Bill. So, I'd like you to tell us why the Government are withdrawing this Bill today. What's changed?

I think it is very important that we had already agreed that we couldn't take this forward for 2026. There was a great concern from all the scrutiny committees that actually recognised that it was very difficult, with the general election coming forward in July, and in terms of what had to be done in order to get the Bill through, to get it through for 2026. The committees themselves, in their evidence, said we cannot risk anything that would risk the 2026 elections. And certainly those of us who were in favour of Senedd reform on this side of the Chamber knew that we had to be very careful about not risking the 2026 elections in taking this Bill forward. So, I made that statement that it would go to 2030.

But we do have to recognise that, while we maintained that the Bill was within competence, others took a different view, including the Llywydd, and, of course, that was a real challenge. It was a real challenge to the Reform Bill Committee, it was a real challenge for the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, it was a real challenge for us. When we started on this process, the Llywydd did not take the view that the Bill was within competence. This meant that the path to implementation—and that goes back to my point about risk about 2026—was not straightforward. When I introduced the Bill, I did say that the Bill was within the legislative competence of the Senedd, and I confirmed during Stage 1 that—. Also—and this is answering the questions that have been asked—officials did open discussions with the Wales Office, in light of the scrutiny committee's conclusions, but those discussions had not been concluded. [Interruption.]

Can I just, before I give way, Adam Price, say that it is important to respond to the debate by saying that changes to the devolution settlement, whether by virtue of a section 109 Order—and that was raised by Siân Gwenllian—or an Act of UK Parliament would not put the question of competence beyond doubt or remove the risk of a referral to the Supreme Court or other legal challenge? Neither is a quick process. We're 18 or 19 months away from this 2026 election, and of course, political parties can bring this back. The work has been done; they can bring this back for the 2030 election, another Bill. But in the meantime, can't we get some voluntary guidance so that political parties now can prepare to deliver on gender quotas and wider diversity for 2026? It was always going to be difficult and challenging in terms of issues of competence and the process for actually getting agreement to an Order that had to be approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Senedd. Adam.

Seeing as we are being asked to withdraw a Bill that you presented before the summer to us, would you address the question that we've asked? What has changed over the summer that has caused you now to ask us to withdraw the Bill?

I think, actually, when I was answering questions that were put to me earlier on, I was certainly voicing the issues, the difficulties of actually progressing with this Bill, which we reflected on over the summer. Over the summer, yes, we went through the general principles; it was a time for amendments. I think we had 20 amendments from the Welsh Conservatives that we were going to have to address. And of course, it does go back to reflecting the priorities of the summer in terms of what we could take forward. [Interruption.] But can I just say—and I'll come back to you, Jane, as well—that this is also about recognising this really important opportunity that we've got to produce guidance for 2026? Aren't Senedd Members here interested in what this expanded Senedd looks like in 2026? Do you want to come back to a Senedd full of white men? No. So, please take some time to look at what we can do in terms of the 2026 guidance. We want a more diverse Senedd. We've got an opportunity. We're going to produce voluntary guidance, and I want every political party and every leader—. Because outside, lots of organisations want to help us with this, to get this guidance, and we saw that that should be the priority of this Welsh Government. Jane.

Thank you so much. I do have the greatest of respect for you, and I know that you have been a champion for this, which is why it is so bitterly disappointing. But I am still unclear. I am really struggling to understand what has changed. We know that this was going to be pushed forward to 2030, and we accepted that. We were fine with that. So, we'd be grateful if that's not gone through again. Please could you just tell us what has changed over the summer that has led us to the place we are here and now in September? What has changed? Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

I have attempted to answer that question, Jane, in answer to not just the debate but also interventions that have been made. I hope that you will join us, and the Welsh Liberal Democrats will join us—and I'm sure you will, Jane—in trying to develop this guidance for the 2026 election. I call, obviously, to Andrew R.T. Davies, Rhun ap Iorwerth, and Jane, as leaders, along with our wonderful role model of the first woman leader that we've got here in Wales. 

I'm going to finish on this point, because I want this debate to finish on a positive point. I pay tribute to every woman who has put themselves forward to stand for election in Wales—in local government, in the Senedd and in Westminster. I'm conscious of the words that Julie Morgan shared with us earlier on, and her huge contribution. And I want to thank Julie, particularly, for championing women’s representation in politics at every stage and every level of Government—we’ve been on that journey together—but also championing that action, which, in the Labour Party, led to twinning, which, actually, if it hadn’t been for that twinning, that positive action, I don’t think I would be here today. And I think many other women who stood as Welsh Labour Senedd Members wouldn’t be here without positive action.

So, the point is—and Joyce made that point as well, and Carolyn—the point is: do you want to try and do something for 2026, because I’ve made that my priority, to do something practical for 2026, to get this guidance? We’ve got a statutory duty to it. Can I ask you to join us—all political parties—to get that guidance, so that when we come back in 2026, to that seventh Senedd, that, actually, it will be a diverse Senedd, with equal representation of women and greater diversity? And, of course, then there is a chance for a review, Llywydd—if you’re Llywydd—and we’ll be able to have a review process. If it’s not diverse, we’ve failed. So, take that challenge, please, from me today, to work with me on ensuring that we can get that diversity of the seventh Senedd.

So, thank you for engaging with this today. It is a tough decision, but I believe there’s also a positive way forward. And can we have some co-operation, some sharing of commitments, to make this the truly representative Senedd of the people of Wales that we all aspire to? Diolch yn fawr, and please support the motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.