The next item is a statement by the First Minister on inter-governmental relations. I call on the Prif Weinidog to make the statement—Eluned Morgan. 

Diolch yn fawr. The Welsh Government is determined to deliver on our priorities. We will do this by working with public sector partners, those in Wales and beyond, in particular the new UK Labour Government. As First Minister, I commit to bringing energy and respect to this important work, and continue to stand up for Wales’s interests within a thriving and vibrant union. Two Governments working together for the benefit of Wales is in the best interests of people right across the country.

We have not always seen respect in our inter-governmental landscapes over the last decade and a half. Of the 25 years of devolution, half of that time has been spent working alongside a Government that doesn’t respect the devolution settlement, and didn’t have Wales’s best interests at heart. We will shortly be laying and publishing the 2023-2024 inter-governmental relations annual report. I'm not going to dwell on that further, but I invite Members to read it and reflect for themselves on how inter-governmental relationships suffered during the previous UK Government’s time in power.

The formation of the new UK Government has provided a major opportunity to reset relations and begin a new era of partnership between the Welsh and UK Governments. We are determined to work together in the interests of delivering for the citizens of Wales. This doesn't mean that we will always choose the same path as colleagues working in London, but when we do disagree, we'll do that with respect and we'll always ensure that those decisions work in the best interests of the people of Wales.

That shared commitment to reset relations has already been very evident over the summer. I have had conversations with the Prime Minister, Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Wales to facilitate a collective response to critical immediate issues—on Tata, on public sector pay, on the issues that matter most to the people of Wales. Those conversations have opened a space to work in partnership to support and respect each other’s priorities.

We've seen positive engagement on the UK Government’s legislative programme, and we look forward to working with them on Bills in that programme that can benefit Wales. There are clearly areas where we in Wales can share our own experience and expertise, and we stand ready to do so. I also look forward to working together with the new UK Government to strengthen the Sewel convention through a new memorandum of understanding outlining how the nations will work together for the common good.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Our engagement with the Chancellor and Chief Secretary to the Treasury has very much reflected a positive resetting of relationships and reinvigoration of collaborative spirit. When the then Cabinet Secretary for Finance and I met with the Chancellor in August, we agreed on the need to set the foundations for a close and productive relationship to achieve tangible outcomes for our shared priorities in Wales. I was able to highlight the issues that are important to Wales, including our engagement in the UK spending review, fair funding for Wales and budgetary flexibilities.

We must remember that the previous UK Government's economic record over the past 14 years has left significant challenges. Addressing the impacts on individuals, communities and public finances will require considerable time and effort. However, I am confident that, in the new UK Government, we have a committed partner who will work with us on a shared vision for Wales’s future. Of course, inter-governmental relationships across these islands are not simply bilateral. The Welsh Government has always benefited from strong relationships with the other devolved Governments, and with the British-Irish Council. We will continue to build on these positive relationships.

The Welsh Government continues to believe that the review of inter-governmental relations, agreed in January 2022, can provide the machinery needed to bring the Governments of the UK together, to discuss the right things at the right time. But there are more connections to be made and strengthened, and that is why we welcome the Prime Minister’s proposal for a new council of nations and regions—a way to bring together the Governments and the mayors of combined authorities across the UK. I look forward to participating in the first meeting, which will be held in the coming weeks.

In strengthening our inter-governmental relations and the devolution settlement, we'll seek to progress and build on the conclusions and recommendations of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. The strengthening of inter-governmental relations since the UK elections is something to be really strongly welcomed. The Welsh Government will seek to capitalise on the opportunity to work in partnership with the UK Government for the benefit of the people of Wales.

The First Minister, in her opening remarks, tried to paint a picture of non-co-operation in the 14 years of the Conservative Government in Westminster. I find that bizarre, when you think there was a referendum for further law-making powers for this place in 2011; there was the Silk commission; there were two Welsh Acts that transferred huge amounts of responsibilities, rightly, to this Parliament; and there was the dividend, as I see it, from Brexit, which brought powers from Brussels to this institution. We can debate the other points, but 80 responsibilities came back to this place from Brussels.

I can also remember that the leaders at the time would spend considerable time in Cathays Park, and in Westminster, discussing and debating what should be within those Welsh Bills that came forward transferring those responsibilities, and there was genuine co-operation. So, far from it being a barren desert of co-operation, there were solid negotiations with tangible results. That's why we sit in a legislative Parliament with tax-raising powers today, here in Cardiff Bay, rather than the talking shop that was set up by the Labour Party after the 1997 referendum.

I have a series of questions to ask the First Minister, because she highlights meetings that have been undertaken between herself and her Cabinet colleagues and Ministers in Westminster. I pressed her, in First Minister's questions, about this offer to take waiting-list patients into capacity that is deemed available in England, yet I note the statement doesn't touch on a single meeting between Wes Streeting, the health Minister, and any of her Ministers, despite her listing a series of discussions and meetings that she and other Ministers have had with other senior figures within the Westminster Government. So, can she, in reply to me, confirm how many meetings have taken place between Welsh Government Ministers, and, indeed, herself, and the health Minister in London, to discuss the capacity, the resource, and the ability for people to access this offer that was announced at the Labour Party conference yesterday? I think that's a legitimate question when people are trying to understand whether it's just a press release or a solid offer that has come forward from the Westminster Government in this new era of co-operation.

I also note that she highlights meetings between the Chancellor, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the finance Minister here in Cardiff Bay. We know that one of the biggest announcements that's been made since Labour took office in London is the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance for pensioners that will take £110 million away from pensioners and affect 400,000 households, with 580,000 pensioners losing that right to warm their homes this winter, because they won't have that benefit. So, can she highlight to me what representations, in those meetings, she and other Ministers have made to highlight the detrimental impact to Welsh pensioners and, indeed, communities across Wales? Because it's all well and good talking about the reforming of the funding formula and end-of-year budget flexibilities, but a real, tangible result of Labour taking control on 4 July is the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance for pensioners here in Wales. So, what representations did you make, First Minister, and what representations did your Cabinet colleagues make? 

I'd also like to try and understand, given the Secretary of State for Wales's aversion to actually engaging in any of the independent commission's recommendations, which was a considerable piece of work that the Welsh Government was supporting in its earlier tenure, after 2021, how you are going to actually bring forward those proposals with the Westminster Government's engagement, and bring forward the support that the Welsh Government wish to achieve in Westminster of devolution of aspects of the justice system and other areas that you believe would be best served here in Wales. I and the Welsh Conservatives don't believe that is the case, but as that piece of work was such a big piece of the Welsh Government's work in the early years of this Parliament, it's interesting to try and understand, given this wonderful new era that we have of inter-governmental relations, when we're going to see tangible results on progress on the independent commission on constitutional change.

And then the final question I have to her is this: given that she has such a low regard for the relationship of the Prime Minister and her, and that she has such a regard for building a relationship with Donald Trump—because she puts the two relationships on the same pedestal—how is she, going forward, going to make sure that she can get through the front door to No. 10 to have those discussions with the Prime Minister? Because it's a pretty low bar when you're on a tv programme and you say you have a better chance of influencing Donald Trump than you do the party leader in London, who is the Prime Minister. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thanks very much. I'm going to talk about my experience with the UK Government. To be honest, it was very limited. During the pandemic, to be fair, there were really strong relationships, very consistent discussions with people like Matt Hancock, people like Sajid Javid, and the moment they left the scene there was no relationship at all. That coincided with the time of absolute turmoil in your party. The real problem is that that turmoil infected everything that was going on in Government. They were wasted years, when people could have seen a difference in their lives. The fact is that that inter-governmental relationship absolutely broke down. I'm not sure how it worked for other members of the Government team, but I'm speaking for myself, and I can tell you that there was no relationship. So, I think you have got to take a degree of responsibility in the Tory party for that.

You talked about a dividend from Brexit. Well, I can't see much of a dividend from Brexit. Last week in a letter, you asked me to justify, after I spoke in First Minister's questions, how I could say that our exports have dropped. I hope you saw evidence to demonstrate that they have dropped. And also you promised in that referendum that Wales wouldn't be worse off financially, and it is. That is undeniable.

I don't know what's happened during the summer. It was a very strange summer, wasn't it? It was certainly a very strange summer for me. But it seemed like a bit of a strange summer for you, because you turned up at an agricultural show and you were genuinely asking people, 'Are you for or against devolution?' What a mad world you're living in, when you're sitting in this Parliament, and soon you're going to be going out and asking people about whether they should vote for you, and you're not even sure whether this place should exist. I've been in this position for 48 days—[Interruption.]

Can we allow the First Minister to respond, please?

I've been in this position for 48 days, and as it happens, it turns out that I am managing to have lots of meetings with lots of people in the UK Government. So, I do have influence; I probably wouldn't have that influence with some people the other side of the Atlantic. So, it's great. The important thing for me is that, actually, we deliver as a result of those conversations. It is still very early days, but, already, we've delivered inflation-busting pay rises, we've delivered a better deal than you were able to offer in Tata, and we've also been able to work together on an expansion to rail services in north Wales. Those are three very tangible differences in 48 days. I think that's something we can be proud of. We've done that in 48 days. Just hold your breath, because there's a heck of a lot more coming.

The First Minister, very kindly, wanted to give me a lesson earlier this afternoon about how devolution works. Essentially, don't mention UK Government, don't mention Keir Starmer in the Welsh Parliament—we're here to talk about devolved things. And I get it, it is rather difficult. It turns out some of his actions are rather unpopular. Maybe it's, 'Don't be critical about Keir Starmer or UK Government.' Maybe I understood. But since then she's been more than happy to talk about Wales’s relationship with the UK Government in answer to other questions—how the relationship works on health and so on. And now we have this statement, at her instigation, literally about the relationship between Welsh Government and UK Government, reminding us that the nature of the relationship that Wales has with other parts of these islands and, yes, with the UK Government and the Prime Minister—I'll name him, Keir Starmer—is rather important. That's number 22, I think, isn't it? She really cannot pick and choose. I will hold him to account from here in the Welsh Parliament.

Two Labour Governments working in partnership for the benefit of the people of Wales—that was the pledge before the general election. That's what we're supposed to believe is the principle driving the work of the new First Minister. The problem, of course, is that the words of the First Minister herself over the past few days have undermined that pledge. The admission from the First Minister on her lack of influence on Keir Starmer—as much influence as she has over Donald Trump, those were her own words—is a cause of concern.

I'll point to three examples of shortfalls in the so-called partnership in power between Labour in Welsh and UK Governments: (1) rather than having to rely on a conference press release, let's see the text of the agreement that underpins its cross-border health plan, so we can interrogate the governance and funding arrangements, otherwise we might think it was just a stunt; (2) a response to a recent Plaid Cymru written question revealed that the First Minister hadn't even tried to fight Wales’s corner on critical issues like devolution of the Crown Estate, something she claims to want urgently. Has the First Minister now had a conversation with the UK Government about the devolution of the Crown Estate? I hope she has. Has she pointed out that, as it stands, the Crown Estate is due to be handed more borrowing powers than her own Welsh Government, or that, as it's currently designed, GB Energy will provide more benefits to businesses and consumers in the south east of England than it will to communities in Wales? And (3), in her statement, the First Minister says she has raised fair funding with the Chancellor, but her concept of what is fair differs rather fundamentally from mine, I must say. She has already confirmed to me in writing that Labour will not honour its previous commitment to scrap the Barnett formula. Perhaps she can explain how she proposes to introduce fairness to a formula that is fundamentally unfair and which one of her predecessors just could not defend.

We know, don't we, that, under the last Tory Government, inter-governmental relations were a one-way street, I agree with the First Minister, with Westminster and Whitehall only wanting to dictate terms to this Senedd, and so often legislation was passed there over the heads of elected Members here, undermining the integrity of Welsh democracy. The evidence that the UK’s inter-governmental infrastructure in general doesn't work is overwhelming. The Institute for Government, UK in a Changing Europe, the Centre on Constitutional Change, among many others, all agree on this point, and the First Minister’s predecessor but one condemned it as 'not fit for purpose'.

But under a new UK Labour Government, what fundamentally has changed? Yes, there are some warmer words. We have some chummy photo shoots outside the Labour conference. But what has fundamentally changed? We don't know yet, for example, how the so-called council of nations and regions will work or whether it'll fit into the UK's existing IGR architecture. What little we know about the design of this new council is strikingly Anglocentric isn't it? We know something about planned relationships between central Government and English regions, but nothing, really, about what it means for Wales, or indeed how Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland relate to each other. Perhaps the First Minister might explain a little about those relationships.

So, the current systems aren't effective, and what's being proposed by Labour is at best ambiguous at the moment. The ideas emerge from somewhere in the Gordon Brown commission. The recommendations of that commission were quite weak in the first instance, of course, but now they've been diluted to a point that one can't even hope for, never mind deliver, real change. What we need now is a Government who will truly push the envelope in terms of how the relationship between different parts of these isles can work effectively, and stand up for the interests of Wales in those key discussions with the new Labour Government, and Plaid Cymru is asking for the opportunity to do that in a constructive manner. And without that kind of approach, the pledge of change is meaningless in reality. Would the First Minister agree with that?

Well, thanks very much, and, yes, 24 times now, and I'm sure we'll keep a tally on how many times you mention that particular word and how many times you really focus on the things that matter to the people in Wales.

I just wonder whether you actually want us to work together across the United Kingdom, because I'm telling you what, my understanding, from talking to people in the streets over the summer, is that they're very keen for us to work together with the UK Government when that is of benefit to us. So, I think it's important for us to look ahead. It's very early days. I mean, in 48 days, most of that in recess, I think actually we've achieved quite a lot. I think the fact that the finance Secretary has written to the Chancellor outlining the commitments and the things that we're looking for in the autumn budget—I think it's probably worth underlining some of those, and emphasising that, actually, that initial release of £13.5 million from the £80 million committed to support the Tata Steel transition—. It was sitting in the bank account under the Tories for a very long time. Within weeks it was released once we got into power. So, that wouldn't have been done without the new Labour Government. Opportunities to support research and development investment in Wales; we need to work in partnership on arrangements for post-EU funds. It's important, I think, for us to develop a programme of investment to ensure that disused coal tips are safe. We of course want to continue that case for a fair funding approach in the application of Barnett in relation to rail funding, and really highlight the opportunities to support the Welsh economy and the transition to net zero, by providing investment in Welsh ports and nuclear investment. So, there's a whole load of things, actually, that we've tried to pursue with the Government. There's a whole long list of things that everybody else is going to the Chancellor with, and she of course needs to find a way of filling that £22 billion black hole.

Just in terms of when that will happen, well, I think most of it will come up during the autumn statement. I think it was great to hear that austerity is ending, and that's something we certainly all welcome. And I think, probably, it is worth mentioning that we do agree in principle with the inter-governmental review that was introduced by the Conservatives. We do need a formal mechanism. The problem is, they didn't do anything with it. They had one meeting the entire time. So, the council of nations and regions, I think, is going to be a new approach to that, and will be meeting within the next few weeks.

First Minister, Wales's economy is still struggling to find its way after the structural changes of the decline of heavy industries such as coal and steel, and substantial investment is required. In terms of how our new Labour UK Government can help, I do think Gordon Brown's report, 'A New Britain: Renewing our Democracy and Rebuilding our Economy', sets out practical measures to address those regional economic inequalities: substantial investment in clusters such as semiconductors and cyber security in south-east Wales; the transition to green steel; rebuilding our infrastructure, including rail and renewable energy; and relocating public sector jobs to Wales, where we have such a strong track record in areas such as Newport, where we have the statistics office, patent office, prison service, and passports, for example. So, First Minister, will you work with the UK Labour Government to deliver this badly needed support for our Welsh economy?

Diolch yn fawr, John, and you've always been such a strong advocate for devolution and the power of devolution to be able to change people's lives for good. I think it's probably worth underlining, as you say, the Gordon Brown report, but also mentioning the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. I think there are real opportunities for us to look at that and to make sure that we're driving forward with some of the recommendations in that.

You will know, John, that the absolute No. 1 priority of the new UK Labour Government is to grow the economy. We are very much on the same page as that, because we know, unless you grow the economy, you can't pay for your public services, so I do think that that is the right way to go about things. We've been through a really difficult time: we've had Brexit, we've had austerity, we've had COVID, we've had inflation. I do think that now is the time for hope, for people to look to the future, for us to grab the opportunities and to really drive forward a future that is bright and provides opportunities for the people in our communities. And those people in your community, John, really have some incredible opportunities now, particularly in things like the cyber cluster that exists in your area. These are cutting-edge jobs that are really transforming the lives of people and making sure that we stay safe, and we have that expertise within your community, and I think that's something we should absolutely celebrate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths as Chair of the Finance Committee.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to make a few remarks in response to the statement, as Chair of the Finance Committee. Strong inter-governmental relations are essential for the Governments of the UK to work together constructively and collaboratively. This is an issue that the Finance Committee feels strongly about, especially in relation to fiscal matters. And that is why prior to the summer, we began an inquiry into the effectiveness of inter-governmental relations structures, and considered the current dispute resolution mechanisms. We aim to publish a report on this issue and I look forward to bringing forward a debate on the matter in this Siambr on behalf of the Finance Committee this term.

Since we began our inquiry, significant changes have taken place in Westminster, with a change in the UK Government and also a change in personnel within the Welsh Government. This is an opportunity to reset relationships, and we hope our forthcoming report will help to strengthen inter-governmental relations and ensure parity of esteem. And with that in mind, and given the evidence that we have received that demonstrates the importance of effective inter-governmental relations to fiscal devolution, I'd like to ask the First Minister to elaborate on what specific discussions she and the Cabinet Secretary have had with the Chancellor and her ministerial colleagues at the Treasury on improving processes relating to finance, and what her vision is for the future of inter-governmental relations with regard to fiscal matters.

Thank you, Peredur, and thank you for your work on the committee. I think there is a formal process in place, but it hasn't yet been used in terms of disputes resolution, but nobody has used that process as of yet. But I think, in terms of funding, it is important that we establish a way of ensuring that we do have a means of ensuring that people know what we need, first of all, but, secondly, if we do need further discussions—as I have been discussing with the Chancellor over the weekend, in terms of what our priorities are, what we want to see contained within the budget—I think it's then important that we do have an opportunity to approach her. But the fact is that the powers and the money are held by the Treasury. That’s where it is. There is a process in terms of where we get the money from and when we get that money, and we are very keen that there are to be changes in the way that we are funded, and, clearly, that is something that I discussed with her. But we are just starting that discussion; there’s a long way to go.

First Minister, thank you, firstly, for your statement. The value to the Welsh people of having two Governments in Cardiff and London working together to improve their lives cannot be underestimated, and it has been missing for 14 long years. The Labour Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, has signalled a strong proposal for a new council of nations and regions, a mechanism to bring together the Governments and the mayors of combined authorities. That has also been missing. This new offer and fresh approach from a UK Labour Government vividly demonstrates the potential of a Welsh Labour Government working alongside a UK Labour Government, and sometimes it is hard to believe that this is a brand-new UK Labour Government—it has just been born. But it is an absolute fact that, after the appalling attack on UK finances—

You do need to ask your question now, please. 

—during 14 long years of Conservative management, there is a great big hole to be filled. My question, First Minister: what policy areas and strategic opportunities have you identified that will be advanced via constructive dialogue alongside our UK Government colleagues that will support and benefit and help the people of Wales?

Thanks very much, Rhianon, and you’re absolutely right, I think this is an opportunity now, with two Governments, one mission. And part of that mission will be economic growth, and some of that, I’m sure, will be debated through that new structure of the council of nations and regions. And I think it probably is worth talking about how we can learn from each other. The point of devolution is that we can do things differently. We don’t all have to be the same. We can adapt and adjust to what is needed within our own communities. And it was really useful to speak, for example, to Sadiq Khan about how they have rolled out free school meals to primary schools and what they’ve learnt already and where we can perhaps learn—just as we’ve rolled out that programme, what is the learning. Apparently, the very early indications are that it’s a super-successful programme. But Andy Burnham also—an opportunity for us to learn from him in terms of transport and what’s happening in care.

So, I think there’s an opportunity for us all to gather, to look at best practice, and it’s not a bad thing that we all do things differently; I think it’s something we should celebrate. But, just in terms of policy areas, the obvious one for us all to focus on is the economy. I think, when you look at the potential of green renewable energy, in particular in the Celtic sea, I think that is a huge opportunity. I don’t think it is something that we’ll be able to manage in Wales ourselves—you need incredibly deep pockets to be able to drive that kind of commitment and development forward, and that’s where partnership will be absolutely crucial.

After telling me to write to my MP about decisions taken by the UK Government that harm the people of Wales, and chiding Plaid Cymru for asking you to stand up for the people of Wales, I think I need to remind you about how the present devolution settlement works, Prif Weinidog, because the decisions of the UK Government directly affect many stated aims and ambitions and resources available to the Welsh Government. You’ve said you’d ensure that those decisions would work in the best interests of the people of Wales this afternoon. That’s what the community Secretary Carl Sargeant said at the time that was key to the decision made by the Welsh Government to drop child poverty targets in 2016. Check the record. And this has been repeated by his successors, including the former First Minister Mark Drakeford, and the current social justice Cabinet Secretary. So, that’s why I asked you to call on the UK Government to scrap the two-child limit and the benefit cap, because it affects 65,000 children in Wales. So, will you commit to that today, and will you commit to statutory child poverty targets? Those targets could perhaps prompt you to take a harder line with your UK Labour colleagues on this issue. Partnership rings hollow for those thousands of children in poverty in Wales.

Well, what I will say, Sioned, is that devolution is a complex beast, but it is a beast where there are clear demarcation lines. And this place is about holding me to account for the things that I have power over. Now, of course we will try and influence, and of course we will have opinions on what is good and bad for Wales. But I can't pretend to run an entire UK Government and hold the entire UK Government to account every single week in this Chamber. If that's what you want to do, you should have gone to Westminster. Now, we will effect change where we can, and, when it comes to child poverty, you will know, because we've done this in partnership with you, that actually the fact that we have been able to deliver free school meals to primary school children is a direct approach to trying to resolve the issue of child poverty. So, we'll effect change where we can—[Interruption.]—where we can and how we can, but let's be clear: there are very clear demarcation lines in terms of what we're responsible for and what we're not.

Sioned Williams has made it clear why co-operation is so important between this place and Westminster. And it's important that this happens regardless of what party is in power. As Andrew R.T. Davies said, the Conservatives did demonstrate some respect for the devolution settlement—that is, until Brexit; ironically, in terms of Andrew's later argument, it's Brexit that changed that situation. But I'd like to know, therefore, more about the council of the nations and regions. As Rhun ap Iorwerth said, we don't know a great deal about the council yet, although I was pleased to hear that Keir Starmer—sorry, another name count for him—is going to attend the meeting. That hasn't happened a great deal over the past few years. I see from your statement that you do support the changes that were made in 2022 in terms of the inter-governmental relationship. So, how will the new council of nations dovetail with these changes, especially in terms of the council that was established back in 2022? We don't want too many councils, do we? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, I think all of this—. The Government's only been in position for a very few days in the United Kingdom, and they are working through things. We are looking at a date in a few weeks' time, when I'm sure some of those issues that you've pointed out—what is the relationship between the council of the nations and regions and the inter-governmental relations review, how will they pleat together—. Because, obviously, we don't want to duplicate unnecessarily, but there are different players in the different groups. So, clearly, there will need to be a conversation around that.

And finally, Alun Davies.

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First Minister, I also welcome the change in tone that we've seen over the last few months. It's a really refreshing breath of fresh air to see Ministers in London who actually seek out and want to engage with Ministers here in Cardiff and elsewhere. There are two areas of policy that I would like to see us focus upon and to debate further. First of all is the levelling-up agenda that was pursued, somewhat haphazardly, by previous Conservative Governments. Now, we know that that was targeted at constituencies where they hoped to win in the last general election, and we know that it was targeted away from people who were living in poverty. It is important and several organisations have contacted me in Blaenau Gwent who want to see a regional policy pursued by the countries of the United Kingdom. The previous policies were all delivered here, of course, in Cardiff Bay, and were determined by the Welsh Government. So, I'd like to understand how you intend pursuing this.

And the second issue is that of the overall funding framework. It is important that Wales is funded on the basis of need, and not simply on the basis of population. We've seen the UK Government—

You need to conclude now, Alun.

—change the basis of the funding formula for Northern Ireland. And if it's good enough for Northern Ireland, it's good enough for Wales.

Thanks very much, Alun. You're quite right—I think the major difference when the money came via the European Union is there were some objective criteria for it, there was a basis on which money was distributed, and that was very much done on the basis of need. Of course, you're quite right, I think it was naked political manipulation in terms of how the money for the levelling-up fund was redistributed, and, of course, the shared prosperity fund just bypassed the Welsh Ministers, and that's not a good way for us to make sure that we're using public money in the best way possible.

But I do think we have to recognise that we are keen to see some reform. We've always said that we're interested in seeing a financial settlement that is on the basis of relative need, and that's set out in our 'Reforming the Union'. That reform will, however, need to be agreed by all four nations and set within a new fiscal agreement, and I think it makes sense for that to be overseen and operated by a body that's independent of the UK Government. Now, we're not there yet, and I think it's a discussion that we need to continue to have, but our priority in the near term is to ensure the current funding formula delivers for Wales, and we'll continue to make the case for that. And it's also worth noting that the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, in its final report, highlighted that growing case for a review of the funding of the devolved Governments to be led jointly by the UK and devolved Governments. I think, just in terms of Barnett, we've just got to be very careful that whatever happens we mustn't see any funding that comes to Wales be reduced. 

I thank the First Minister.