The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Heledd Fychan.

We'll move on now to item 7, which is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the winter fuel payment. I call on Joel James to move the motion.

Motion NDM8651 Darren Millar

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Expresses deep concern that around 400,000 households in Wales will lose up to £300 per person after the UK Government’s decision to end the universal winter fuel payment.

2. Notes the Welsh Government's Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip's response to WQ93698 where she stated that the UK Government's decision to end the winter fuel payment will risk pushing some pensioners into fuel poverty.

3. Calls on the UK Government to reverse its decision to end the universal winter fuel payment.

Motion moved.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. The decision to remove universal winter fuel payments has blindsided millions of pensioners who have now been put into a state of fear over the affordability of their winter fuel bills, which are predicted to go up by 10 per cent in October. But what is completely perplexing about this situation is that no explanation whatsoever has been offered by our new Labour Westminster Government as to why it is necessary, or why it is so urgent—indeed, so urgent that they have had to invoke special emergency provision measures and bypass parliamentary scrutiny of it. They have claimed rather ludicrously, and without evidence, I should add, that it was to stop a run on the pound.

They've also claimed that there is a £22 billion black hole in public finances, but this has been repeatedly shown to be disingenuous and manufactured by the Labour Party in self-imposing restrictions on UK public spending and backdating inflation-busting public sector pay rises to keep their trade union donors happy. Just 10 weeks before the election was called, the Office for Budget Responsibility audited UK public finances and there was no indication of a £22 billion shortfall. In fact, it would've been a breach of the civil service code if officials had knowingly signed off incorrect public finance estimates.

Quite frankly, it is clear to just about everyone here, including the Cabinet Secretary, that cutting the universal winter fuel scheme in this way is not only exceptionally short-sighted and callous, but it will risk pushing thousands of pensioners into fuel poverty. Over 100,000 will see it cut in my region alone. It creates a sharp cliff edge for those whose income is just above pension credit levels. Those who have 35 years of national insurance contributions and the full state pension are not eligible for pension credit, and now the winter fuel allowance, yet someone with 34 years of contributions is, meaning that those just over the threshold are most likely in danger of fuel poverty. We also know that there are almost 900,000 people who are entitled to but are not claiming pension credit. The reality is that this Labour Government will be taking a vital income away from those who most need it.

However, what is most alarming, as we have discovered, is that the new Labour Government has commissioned no impact assessment whatsoever on the impact of this cut. The Labour Party's own research has estimated that, by scrapping the universal winter fuel payments, excess deaths will increase by almost 4,000 people. So, the real question here is why the UK Government wants to do such a thing. Why would they want to cause such fear in pensioners, many of whom are vulnerable, disabled or suffering from health issues? And why would they want to take a decision that, by their own research, would cause the deaths of thousands? The truth is, acting Presiding Officer, that by cutting winter fuel payments and punishing vulnerable pensioners, they're ultimately paving the way for extremely painful fiscal policies and further tax rises, as we are, in all fairness, being continually warned about by the new Government. They will argue that if vulnerable pensioners have to pay, then so does everyone else.

They have manufactured this financial situation and are punishing pensioners so that they can turn around and squeeze every last penny out of the UK taxpayer, out of businesses and out of entrepreneurs. But as we have seen repeatedly throughout history, they won't use this money for good government, but to swell the state and most probably bung this place another £100 million for the extra 36 politicians that you so want but nobody else does. The fact that, without exception, no Labour MP supported the scrapping of this cut last week clearly shows the contempt and cowardice that they have for our country and our most vulnerable, and with all due respect, Cabinet Secretary, the contempt that they have for you and this Government. I'm sure that many people who voted for them in July are now thoroughly ashamed.

Acting Presiding Officer, there is no logical reason as to why scrapping universal winter fuel allowance should be done. Making older people, some disabled, some suffering from chronic and terminal illnesses who feel the cold more deeply, afraid to turn on their heating in case they get a bill they cannot afford neither makes moral nor financial sense. During this debate, we will undoubtedly hear about the human cost and possibly the increased financial cost of such a policy. I would like to remind Members across this Chamber to take a step back and look at the real reasons as to why the Labour Party have chosen to do this and are choosing to punish vulnerable pensioners. It is but the start of the pain that the Labour Party has in store for us and the Welsh people, and I would urge everyone here to support our motion. Thank you.

The Llywydd has selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip to move formally amendment 1, tabled in her name.

Amendment 1—Jane Hutt

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Recognises that the UK Government has made difficult choices, such as changes to the winter fuel allowance eligibility, as a result of 14 years of economic mismanagement.

2. Welcomes the commitment to the triple lock and a targeted approach to the Warm Home Discount.

3. Agrees that maximising incomes, building financial resilience, and putting money back into people’s pockets are priorities to help alleviate the impact of high energy prices, and encourages people to find out about the financial support they may be entitled to through Advicelink Cymru.

4. Supports the principle of a social tariff to protect the most vulnerable customers, and calls on OFGEM to reform standing charges.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

I call on Sioned Williams to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan

Add as new point at end of motion:

Regrets that the withdrawal of the inclusive winter fuel payment provision is a continuation of the austerity agenda of the previous UK Conservative Government.

Amendment 2 moved.

Thank you, Llywydd dros dro. Plaid Cymru agrees with the contents of the Conservatives' motion today and we will be supporting it. We share the concerns that around 400,000 households in Wales will lose hundreds of pounds' worth of support, following the decision made by the Westminster Labour Government to enable them to pay energy bills—. I'll start again. 

Plaid Cymru agrees with the contents of the Conservative’s motion today and we will be supporting it. We share the concerns that around 400,000 households in Wales will lose hundreds of pounds of support, following the decision made by the Westminster Labour Government, and we know that those bills are going to increase even further. But we also call on that Government to overturn that decision.

But our amendment, which adds to the motion, is crucial to this debate today, which is that we regret the fact that this cut is a continuation of the austerity agenda of the previous Conservative Government at Westminster. And I have to say that I disagree too with the way that Joel James has just rewritten the history of the past 14 years.  

That is a crucial point, in our view, because we are a party that totally rejects the ideology and policies of austerity. Austerity measures deepen inequality by exacerbating the hardship faced and felt by people on low incomes, while enabling the wealthiest to shoulder the lightest burden.

Life expectancy at birth, which is a key indicator of a nation’s health, has declined since 2010 as a result of austerity, according to the London School of Economics. It’s an entirely ineffective and unfair economic policy. It is about saving money, yes, but the UK debt increased every year under the Conservative Governments. So, it hadn’t achieved what the politicians such as George Osborne had said it was going to achieve.

What it did was it transferred money from the poorest to the richest. As we live with high levels of child poverty, with food banks now a part of everyday life for millions, the billionaires of these isles have seen their wealth go up and up. And it was your party on the Conservative benches that was the architect of austerity, and you must be held to account for that.

Yes, it’s true that you didn’t withdraw this payment from pensioners, although you did consider doing so in 2017. But you did cause pensioners to make difficult—impossible, indeed—decisions, such as between eating or heating. Conservative Governments since 2010 made the wrong decisions—decisions that weakened the economy and damaged public services, and led to so many other cuts that impacted the most vulnerable members of our society.

It is hugely disappointing and hugely concerning to see Members of Parliament from Wales, who were elected on a promise of change, voting in favour of cutting the winter fuel payment, or choosing not to oppose the cut by abstaining. How spineless, how shameless, how unprincipled. Reports by Age Cymru, the older people’s commissioner and Carers Wales have shown that poverty is rife among the older members of our society. Those who are disabled, or who live with a chronic health condition, are even more likely to be impacted by this cut, according to the organisations that campaign for their welfare and rights.

Up to £300 goes a long way to help with energy costs over the winter, especially as the average annual energy bill is expected to rise by almost £150 next month. Withdrawing this support at short notice like this will drive many pensioners into fuel poverty and much further into debt. Being unable to keep your home warm can have serious consequences. A warm home isn’t just a comfortable thing to have; it’s vital to health, particularly for older people. A cold home increases the risk of stroke, of respiratory disease and of suffering a fall or other injury. And it can kill. 

The most recent statistics available noted that there were 800 excess winter deaths, as they are called, in Wales in 2021-22, 240 of which can be attributed to cold homes. The United Kingdom is the sixth largest economy in the world, and it has 165 billionaires living in it. Cutting fuel support for pensioners isn’t the solution to economic problems, nor should it ever be. More austerity is not the answer if we want to see fairness and prosperity for the people of Wales, and the Welsh Government needs to stand up for them in the face of this. So, my question to the Government is this: haven’t you had enough of having to make up for policy mistakes made in Westminster? Show the people of Wales that you are putting your nation before your party.

Can I remind Members of the time that the Conservatives called for the end of free prescriptions for all? To quote Darren Millar, it's providing free prescriptions for paracetamol to millionaires. He was completely opposed to universal provision, saying it should be targeted to those who need it.

I have a personal interest. I started to receive my state pension in July. I have never received a winter fuel allowance payment, and now I will not. Do I need it? No. Do Paul McCartney, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Elton John, Sting or Mick Jagger need it? I could go on for the next four minutes naming people who are very wealthy who don't need—[Interruption.] Yes.

What about the guy who works in our local ironmonger who's going to find himself £13 over the threshold? He's going to lose that £300. I agree that there's a debating point about people who pay 40 per cent and 45 per cent tax, but with what your Government is proposing, there's no impact assessment, your own figures are saying 4,000 premature deaths, and there's a cliff edge to take this benefit away from pensioners through the coming winter.

I'll answer the last bit, because I can, and the rest of it's coming up in the speech. We don't know how many people are going to die this winter. You can't know how many people are going to die this winter, because you don't know what the weather's going to be like this winter. If the weather goes down to -20 degrees C—[Interruption.] If the weather goes down to -20 degrees C, or stays above freezing point, it will have a huge difference.

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly, Darren. I did give you a mention.

You're the chair of the cross-party group on older people. Don't you think you ought to reflect on the views of those organisations representing older people, who are absolutely livid about this cruel decision by the new UK Labour Government?

Certainly, I will reflect on what they say.

What do people use their winter payment for? Some donate it very kindly to a foodbank; others use it for winter breaks. Data the ONS collected between 2016 and 2018 shows that more than one in five households in Britain where the main householder defined as the person responsible for household finances is over 65 have household wealth of over £1 million. It also shows that one in four people aged over 65—that is, 25 per cent—lived in a household with a total wealth of over £1 million. To people like me, £1 million is a lot of money. I can understand why people on the Conservative benches don't think £1 million is a lot of money. What is £1 million? For many farmers, it's 10 years of basic farm payments. I consider it a substantial amount.

A cut-off point at receipt of pension credit is wrong. That's answering you, Andrew, on this. It would be wrong if everyone eligible for pension credit claimed it. We know many eligible do not. A fairer measure would be the one the Conservatives use for child benefit. All families get child benefit, but dependant on earnings, a child benefit charge is collected via the taxation system. I will again call for all income to be taxed in the same way. We have income tax, we have dividend and we have capital gains, and if you get anything apart from income tax, you pay an awful lot less. 

Compare the treatment of pensioners to younger people. Young people have been penalised since the Conservatives came into Government in 2010. Tuition fees have been increased and are currently £9,250 a year, and there's a call for them to be increased. How much interest you're charged depends on which plan you're on: 4.3 per cent on plan 1 or plan 5, 7.3 per cent on plan 2, 4.3 per cent on plan 4, 7.3 per cent if you're on a postgraduate loan plan. You'll pay 9 per cent of your income over the lowest threshold out of the plan types you have. You'll only have a single repayment taken each time you get paid, even if you're on more than one type of plan. For a number of young graduates, the actual tax rate is 29 per cent, not 20 per cent. For postgraduates, it's 6 per cent over the postgraduate loan threshold of £21,000 a year, and becomes 9 per cent when you get paid more. 

There's a discussion to be had over the universality of support. There's a balance between ensuring no-one misses out and the cost of provision. Can I just talk about Plaid Cymru's policy on state pensions in an independent Wales? It is not to fund them, in the bizarre belief that England would fund them. I find no country in the world, created following a split up into different countries, where one of the countries funds the state pension of the other country created by the split. Ukrainians do not have their state pensions paid by Russia. Not even the SNP, whose grasp of economics is tenuous, have suggested that this would occur. 

Peter Fox.

What on earth was that about?

I can explain it to you, if you can't understand.

Peter Fox.

Diolch, acting Llywydd. We know that leadership requires making difficult decisions, but sometimes those decisions will be wrong. And when we know wrong decisions have been made, it takes courage to stand up for your constituents and stand up against decisions that will, ultimately, harm those constituents. Sadly, we did not see any courage from the Labour MPs here in Wales last week when it came to standing up to Keir Starmer and his political decision to remove the winter fuel payments from up to 400,000 households in Wales. Now, in Monmouthshire an estimated 21,000 pensioners are set to lose out on the winter fuel payment. That payment, brought in by Rishi Sunak, was incredibly important to supporting pensioners through harsh winters, and now we are seeing this vital support being ripped from them in order to help fund things like the massive pay rises to train drivers who already have a great wage. I must say I'm incredibly disappointed by the u-turns that have occurred on either side of the election from Labour MPs. Before the election, the current Prime Minister released a video with the caption ‘Pensioners deserve security in retirement and that is what my Labour government will deliver’. This simply isn't the case, and we can see that now.

Sadly, every Labour MP, including the new MP for Monmouthshire, voted against the interests of Welsh pensioners or abstained, abdicating their responsibility to their constituents. I wonder how many people would have voted for these new MPs if they knew they were having their heating support cut to go toward Labour's pay plans. The decision to scrap the winter fuel payment will do nothing but harm pensioners across Wales. It was a clear political choice. There were many, many other ways that Keir Starmer could have found money before he and the Chancellor decided to make our pensioners pay.

Now, I respect the First Minister's recent remarks where she suggested she is happy to be unpopular with her colleagues in Westminster when needs be. However, words are cheap. We now need to see action. It is only by voting with our motion today that this Senedd can send a message to Westminster that Labour MPs were not able to do: that we believe in supporting our pensioners through difficult winters, and that we will not idly stand by and let Keir Starmer make political decisions to remove support from the most vulnerable.

I do regret some of the comments that we've heard this afternoon, particularly, if I may say so, Mike Hedges's contribution. Imagine if a Conservative government had done this. What would your comments as a Labour Party have been then?

And I want to return to those people we all represent, and the fear in our communities at the moment, because people will die as a result of this decision. We know that because of the austerity policies of the Conservatives, people did die as a result of those policies, and to continue with those austerity policies—. And a political agenda—that's what it is. Sioned Williams was absolutely right in that regard. That's what that means to people in our communities.

So, fine, we can all finger point, we can play political games, but our role here in the Senedd is to find solutions, and to ensure that the people of Wales do receive what they deserve. I've been reminding myself recently of the universal declaration of human rights. I mentioned it when I talked about culture, but I think it's important that we do remind ourselves of what it means in terms of people's rights to adequate quality of life, to their health and prosperity, and also the right to certainty in old age. That certainty and right to an adequate standard of living. It's not a choice, because it's not a choice between heating and eating any longer.

We are talking about the basics of human life. One in six older people in Wales is living in comparative income poverty. Wales has a higher percentage of older people than other parts of the UK. I do note that the Cabinet Secretary has shared with us recently the Welsh Government's support for households, and there's a lengthy list of the kinds of support available there. But I return to Sioned's point, who asked: surely you must be angry that the Welsh Government has to spend what little money it has filling gaps left by the Westminster Government—what the Westminster Government should be providing to the people of Wales.

I'm also gravely concerned—Sioned mentioned the normalisation of foodbanks. This is something that we should not be normalising. It is a scandal that there are more and more people, more and more families, more older people and so on, having to rely on foodbanks in order to get something as basic as food to eat. In the list of household support from Welsh Government, there is reference to the fuel bank. We are normalising another bank. It's wonderful that the provision is available, but can we just question, once again, why we need a fuel bank in order to tackle one of the essentials of human life? Why can't we do something radical like just ensuring that people have that what they need, so they can have food and a warm home?

There is an ideological problem here. It is easy to point the finger at certain decisions, but it's something that we in Wales have to start finding solutions to, and we need the Labour Government in Westminster now not to continue with these damaging policies, which will impact people in our communities, which will mean that more people will die in their homes, which means that they are afraid to warm their homes this winter. So, let's have a reality check, please, and some action from the Government here and the Government in Westminster.

Today we've come here to show our support for some of the most vulnerable people in our society, our pensioners. The UK Labour Government's decision to remove the winter fuel payments has placed an additional and unacceptable burden on the elderly here in Wales. For pensioners in Brecon and Radnorshire, the removal will mean 23,898 people will lose their support. That support is not just a nice thing to have; for many, it's a matter of survival. Winter fuel payments have long been a vital lifeline for our older people, helping them to heat their homes during the cold winter months. Without it, pensioners face the harsh reality of rising fuel costs. Across the UK, energy bills have increased due to the war in Ukraine, and the cost of everything is rising, and at that time, the Labour Party, who said it's there to support people, has decided to punish pensioners by taking away most of the support they have.

Many pensioners live on fixed incomes, often relying on modest pensions that barely cover the essentials. In Wales nearly one in five pensioners live in poverty, with many already struggling to get the basic needs. They are not all well-off, as some Members think they are; most are struggling and are living week to week. In rural Wales, where rural isolation is already a significant issue, the impact, I think, is even more profound. Rural fuel poverty in Wales is significantly higher than in urban areas. Many elderly residents live off-grid and far from support networks, and it makes it even harder for them to access the support when they need it. Without these payments, our pensioners are at risk of fuel poverty, forced to live in freezing conditions that jeopardise their health and well-being. As has already been said, 4,000 pensioners could potentially die because of this decision, and I think most of them will be in rural areas.

These people are our parents, they're our grandparents, they're our neighbours and our friends. We owe them more than a cold winter at home and empty promises. They built and fought for the communities that we all call home. They deserve to live out their retirement in comfort and security, supported by a country that they have supported their whole lives. What they don't deserve from this Labour Government in Westminster is to live in fear of hypothermia and crippling debt at home.

Today I implore this Welsh Labour Government to take decisive action. We cannot in the Senedd sit idly by while the most vulnerable members of our community in Wales are left to fend for themselves. The Welsh Government must step in where the Labour Government in Westminster has failed. Whether it's through a Welsh version of the winter fuel payments, expanding existing support schemes, or working with local councils to provide direct assistance, we must quickly act to support our pensioners this winter.

The First Minister has said on a number of occasions since taking post she will put Wales first and her party second. This is the time to walk the walk and not talk the talk. I say to Labour Member's today: back our pensioners, back Wales and vote for this motion before you today. Diolch.

Can I firstly say how disappointing it is to see such empty Labour benches today, when we're talking about the winter fuel payment? For many pensioners, cold weather isn't just uncomfortable, it's dangerous. For pensioners, particularly those on low incomes, winter fuel support has been a lifeline. The Labour Government decision to remove the vital benefit will force millions of pensioners to choose between heating and eating; it could kill, as has been said before, 4,000 people, and that figure comes from Labour's own research in 2017.

Ministers say it's about filling a black hole, but the only black hole that we have seen filled recently is the black hole in Keir Starmer's wardrobe filled by a Labour donor. The Government's sums just simply don't add up. Cutting winter fuel support will save around £1.5 billion. Responding to the outcry, the UK Government has said that it will ensure every person entitled to pension credit will get it, but if every person eligible for pension credit got it, it would cost the Government an additional £3.43 billion—more than twice the amount they will save by cutting winter fuel support, so is this really about saving money, or is it about making decisions that hurt those who are least able to fight back? This is not a cost-saving measure that benefits the economy, and it doesn't take into account the hardship it will cause, especially for those on a low income that are just above that threshold for receiving pension credit. 

The economic facts are clear, but what we should be talking about today is the human cost. I heard from a pensioner in the Monmouth constituency, a woman in her 70s, who was so worried about paying her heating bills that she was forced to take a part-time job. It is appalling that this lady felt that she had no other option than to do this. One point six million disabled pensioners will be stripped of their payment according to the Government's own figures, so that's seven in 10 disabled people over pension age that will lose their winter fuel payment. More than eight in 10 of those are aged 80 and over.

Only back in May, Monmouthshire's new MP, Catherine Fookes, said that pensioners should not choose between heating and eating, yet, once elected, was happy to sell out our pensioners and strip them of this vital lifeline, putting party before pensioners. 

The Welsh Conservative group today are calling for the UK Government to reconsider. We call on Labour's Senedd Members to unite behind us and send a strong message to Westminster that these cuts are wrong, and if they go ahead, a staggering number of pensioners will face a winter of fear, anxiety, and cold days and nights, and, in some cases, death. We need a Government that understands that supporting pensioners is not just an economic responsibility, but a moral one. I urge you all to support our motion today.

I am conscious that we have had a lot of speakers and I have limited time, but I did want to say a few words, particularly on this really important subject. We all know that politics is about choices. We are all here in a very privileged position, as elected officials, particularly those in Government, who have levers at their disposal to create better lives and surroundings for the people of Wales. And in the world that we are all living in today where uncertainty and unrest seem to be the norm, creating a stable, secure environment for absolutely everybody should be our main priority, particularly for the elderly, who have worked and contributed to our taxation system their whole lives, and must be supported in their retirement and old age, which, let's be honest, is not exactly the most easy period of one's life.

As many Members may be aware, we have been contacted by organisations such as the Motor Neurone Disease Association who have had considerable concerns about the impact that this payment cut will have on people living with the disease, as it's a cruel condition that sees a gradual breakdown of muscles in the body, and extra heating and comfort is key in helping maintain quality of life at an extraordinarily difficult time. Many diseases are, indeed, not means tested, so when someone on £13,000 who also has M&D, who would have put their heating on for longer, can no longer afford to do so, I really hope the Labour Party cease to try and claim that they are indeed the compassionate ones.

I hear a lot here in this Chamber about the £22 billion black hole. Well, it's interesting that UK Ministers forgot to mention that £9 billion of this is indeed from your Labour Government's decisions down the M4. But then again, it's hardly surprising that Keir Starmer's head is all over the place as his mind is clearly preoccupied with trying to justify why his Lord pals are paying for his work clothes and his wife's dresses. But these are just some of the most recent revelations in a line-up of £76,000-worth of donor goodies since 2019. How very socialist.

For 14 years, the Welsh Conservatives in this Chamber have been blamed and held to account by the Welsh Government for things the Conservative UK Government did down the road, yet during the first opportunity for scrutiny yesterday, the First Minister distanced herself immediately from Keir Starmer and abdicated responsibility. The public are already getting sick of hearing, 'Fourteen years of Tory chaos' as a tagline for the Government who promised change, but I guess you need someone to blame if you're going to be so cruel in Government decision making. I would defy any Member in this Chamber to honestly say that they support pensioners being cold this winter. It's a nasty, unnecessary policy, and, if this is just the start, then I dread what is yet to follow in the next four years. This Welsh Parliament was literally created to make a change for the people of Wales and allow decision making to be closer to home, so I really hope your Government will show some dignity and respect towards the elderly, and step away from party lines by doing something that will actually benefit the lives of 400,000 people across Wales. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Thank you. I welcome this opportunity to discuss the issues related to the winter fuel payment, and I thank the Conservatives for putting forward this motion.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

It is important, colleagues, to remember the context within which the changes to the winter fuel payment were made. There is a £22 billion black hole in the public purse, and difficult decisions are now being taken by the new UK Government as a result, as has been said across this Chamber, of 14 years of Tory austerity and economic mismanagement. Energy prices remain significantly higher than they were at pre-crisis level, and it is disappointing that Ofgem have announced an increase to the price cap from October to December, and I shall be meeting them shortly. But, Llywydd, we do need to use all the levers and powers that we have in Welsh Government to support older people across Wales affected by these changes.

I can see that Janet Finch-Saunders wishes to intervene on the Cabinet Secretary. Are you accepting the intervention?

Happy to.

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I did try to intervene when another Member spoke before, but I don't think I was noticed. Anyway, just on the point the Minister's just made, this £22 billion black hole. Where's the evidence of that? Nobody, and I mean nobody—any Minister in the UK Labour Government or the Welsh Labour Government—can actually inform us as Members where this black hole is present. What we do know is that, previously, the Conservative Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, the right honourable at the time, still is actually—he actually maintained that he would support the fuel payment. And, in fact, our economy was, on growth, the fastest growing economy in the G7 and also inflation brought right down. Green shoots were well and truly shooting up. Then people wanted change, and this is what you've got with the Welsh Labour Government. Can I ask you, Minister: will you provide all Members of the Welsh Parliament with a copy of the notes you must have had from the UK Labour Government saying that this £22 billion black hole exists? Because, frankly, my dear, I don’t believe it.

Well, you can believe what you like, Janet Finch-Saunders, but I hope will listen to and believe the next point I'm going to make. This £22 billion hole, which has been revealed—. Also, we recognise that we found out—the Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, found out—that the former Chancellor, Jermey Hunt, failed to account for the public sector pay rises that were recommended by the independent pay review bodies. Well, only yesterday we were pleased to have a statement from our Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language where we have made that choice, that choice for 190,000 people to get above-inflation pay rises. Well, Jeremy Hunt, if your Government had won—thank goodness they didn't—where would that money be? That £22 billion hole is there and it's growing. When you look at the—. And also, your Government oversaw deficits in Home Office and defence budgets. But I do also encourage Members on the Conservative side to read the Office for Budget Responsibility report, because last week they gave a very good account of the bleak outlook on public finances that we'll see ahead of us.

There would be more credibility in this black-hole argument if, actually, the Labour Party had the power of their conviction and put this commitment to maintain the winter fuel allowance in their manifesto. They did it in 2010, they did it in 2015, they did it in 2017, 2019, but mysteriously not in 2024. Why was that?

Of course, until you get in office, as you know, you don't know the situation in terms of your public finances. It was revealed, and indeed the UK Government has been very open about the situation, the financial circumstances. Yes, we await a budget, don't we? We await a budget and of course the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language will be, as we will be as the Cabinet, putting forward what we feel Welsh Government needs, what Wales needs, standing up for Wales in terms of that budget. But I want to go on, Llywydd, to the point about what should we be doing: what levers and powers should we use to support older people across Wales anyway, as well as those who are affected by these changes? Because it is true that receiving pension credit unlocks older people's entitlement to a winter fuel payment.

And we are supporting the UK Government's campaign. I mentioned in response to questions earlier on that actually the UK Government campaign has resulted in a 115 per cent increase in pension credit claims received across the UK in the past five weeks, compared with the five weeks before 29 July. So, we must improve on that take-up. Of course, pension credit is a passport to a range of other support; cold weather payments, in addition to the winter fuel payment.

But there are other routes to help older people, and I'm very grateful that my letter to all of you, MSs and MPs, was mentioned earlier on by Heledd. It outlines all of the benefits that people can access, and I hope you are using that to reach out in your surgeries. Older people may receive help, for example, to pay their council tax, and there are almost 102,000 pensioners who are now in receipt of the council tax reduction scheme, with over 75,000 pensioners paying no council tax at all. [Interruption.] But there are still more who could claim that council tax reduction scheme. So, please, I call on you to help get that access to that entitlement. Also, pensioners can also get housing benefit to help pay their rent; over-75-year-olds may be eligible for a free tv licence. We've got to get money into more people's pockets, and pensioners' pockets, so please just encourage people throughout Wales—not just older people—to contact Advicelink Cymru's 'Claim what's yours' helpline. And it is important to recognise the impact of that helpline, because last year that helpline helped over 36,800 people to claim more than £10.4 million in additional income.

I mentioned earlier on in answers to questions that we're investing £30 million a year into our Warm Homes Nest scheme to tackle fuel poverty. The crucial point about that is also that the Nest scheme provides free energy advice to all householders in Wales, including older people, through that Nest helpline. Energy debt is a big concern for many householders. [Interruption.] I'm going to continue, because I've had two questions already and I'm going to continue with my comments now.

It's a matter for the Minister whether she's accepting an intervention and she has taken two already.

It is a matter for me. I might indulge you later on. I'm anxious, Llywydd, not to overstep the mark in terms of my time to respond. [Interruption.] i think it's very important—

You have more time, Minister.

It's very important that our Nest advisers can direct households through Citizens Advice for debt management support, and I think it's also important that we reach out to energy suppliers. They have to support their customers through this difficult time with fair and affordable payment plans and emergency support, where required. And there's more we can do, and we touched on this earlier on this afternoon, to reform energy supply services. We call on Ofgem to introduce a social tariff to protect the most vulnerable householders, and we welcome the UK Government's willingness to consider this. We also look, as I said earlier on, at the unfair issue of standing charges—profoundly unfair on customers on low incomes—and we repeatedly called for urgent reform and a lower standing charge for customers on prepayment meters in October last year. And I was pleased to see Ofgem's discussion paper on this.

Of course, also, the emergency funding for vulnerable people—again, the discretionary assistance fund. Not enough pensioners are taking up this discretionary assistance fund. That's why my letter to you was so important, so that they can reach out and get that emergency help to help with fuel and fuel costs as well. But I do feel that the Fuel Bank Foundation—£5.6 million we've put into this—does actually help pensioners and all people who buy off-grid fuel, which was mentioned this afternoon as well. It has helped almost 155,000 people. So, yes, I'll take your intervention now, because I'm just about to wind up my—.

Oh, that's very generous of you, Minister. You're clearly proud of a number of schemes you've outlined to the Senedd here today. Are you proud of the policy to remove from 400,000 pensioners the winter fuel payment?

Well, this is my statement regarding support for people in Wales. 

It's important that I account for what we are doing as a Welsh Government. I look forward to attending—and I know Mark will welcome me—the cross-party group on fuel poverty next week. It's our colleagues and partners who we need to engage with. I look forward to meeting the new older people's commissioner, Rhian Bowen-Davies, to discuss progress on the pension credit take-up campaign, which was so ably developed by her predecessor. I'll be working with Cabinet colleagues for health, social care, local government and housing to spread the pension credit and Welsh benefit charter campaign. And finally, most importantly, Llywydd, I will be chairing the next inter-governmental meeting on work and pensions with the UK Government. 

And we have got to work together at every level of government to support older people and households of all ages. We have to take this action. We have to support those—and I will finally finish on this point—people who have been most affected by 14 years of austerity and Tory economic mismanagement. We've a duty to turn this around at all levels of government and reach out to those most affected by this shameful legacy of the £22 billion black hole. Diolch.

Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate. Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thanks. I'll start by thanking Joel James for opening this essential and key debate by referring to this short-sighted and callous decision, which has blindsided millions of pensioners, causing fear about their ability to pay fuel bills this winter and pushing thousands more pensioners into fuel poverty. As he said, Labour is paving the way for extremely painful fiscal policies and tax rises. 

I'm grateful to Sioned Williams for confirming that Plaid Cymru will be supporting the motion against the decision taken, calling for this place to call for that decision to be changed. She, of course, pointed out that that decision was a Westminster Labour Government decision and, as she said, warm homes are vital to health. I have to disagree on one point: she described austerity as an ideology, although my dictionary describes austerity as 'not having enough money', and as such it was an inheritance from Blair, Brown and Balls back in 2010.

Sioned Williams rose—

Yes.

Perhaps I could just clarify that what I meant when I was talking about austerity is an approach to fiscal policy. That's the shorthand, isn't it? It's austerity fiscal policy. It's about the pretence of saying that you can cut and therefore try and somehow put money back into the economy. Many academics have shown that that's a fallacy. It doesn't work, it takes services away, it decimates services from the people who most need them. And what it does is transfer money from the poorest to the richest.

Keynesian economics is a two-sided coin, and, when the economy slows down, you increase spending to stimulate demand and the economy. The reverse of that is that, when an economy is growing, you're supposed to reduce the spending so that, when there's a rainy day, you can ramp up again. That's Keynesian economics. And the failure to do that and the failure to have addressed the atrocious economic state inherited in 2010 would have generated bigger imposed cuts, as happened in those other countries that didn't heed that. 

Mike Hedges referred to a policy we abandoned years ago and to the impact of this Labour decision on the wealthy minority but not the vulnerable majority of pensioners. 

Peter Fox said that, when wrong decisions are made, it takes courage to stand up for constituents and challenge these, but none of this courage was shown by any Welsh Labour MPs when they voted on this in the UK Parliament. We now need Welsh Labour MSs to show the courage missing then. And as he said, the decision was a clear political choice.

Heledd Fychan rightly says that our role in the Senedd is to find solutions, and we're talking here about the basics of human life. We need Westminster to not continue with this damaging policy.

James Evans pointed out that we have to support some of the most vulnerable people in our society, and that's what we're talking about, because, for many pensioners, this is a matter of survival, with one in five in Wales already living in poverty, and fuel poverty higher in rural areas. As he said, we cannot stand idly by.

Laura Anne Jones rightly said how disappointing it is to see so many empty Labour benches on this key issue. And as she said, the only black hole we've seen recently is the black hole in Keir Starmer's wardrobe. She pointed out that 1.6 million disabled pensioners would be stripped of their winter fuel payments, and that supporting pensioners is not just an economic responsibility, but also a moral one.

Natasha Asghar said that politics is about choices, and it is, and securing a safe environment for our pensioners should be a priority for everyone. She said, rightly, that this is a nasty policy, and we need dignity and respect shown to our pensioners.

The Cabinet Secretary, Jane Hutt, sadly delivered a politicised point-scoring response, which was frankly heartless. She said that difficult decisions were caused by a £22 billion black hole in the public purse, showing that—dare I say it—this regressive Labour Welsh Government’s only real policy remains to blame everything on others, and particularly the former Conservative Government in the UK. She then sought to divert attention from this uncaring decision by self-praising Welsh Government schemes. Of course we support policies to help people in fuel poverty, but this debate is about a decision that does the opposite. I do, however, thank her very much for agreeing to attend the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, as she's done willingly in the past, and contributed to those meetings, but I will have to point out to her that many of the organisations attending those meetings have expressed deep concerns about the decision, and called for it to be changed.

Earlier this year, Cabinet Secretary, you said you did not believe that the UK benefits system was a compassionate, coherent, person-centred benefit system. A system—dare I say—that did then pay the winter fuel payment to all pensioners who'd reached the state pension age. However, today, she didn't tell us how she would describe the UK benefits system, now she's stated that the Labour UK Government's decision to end the winter fuel payment will risk pushing some pensioners into fuel poverty.

The Labour Prime Minister and Chancellor have justified their decision to scrap winter payments for millions of pensioners on the grounds of a £22 billion black hole left by the Conservatives, so you're clearly doing as you're told and following the Westminster script. However, the UK Treasury has refused to provide key details of this fiscal black hole that Labour claims to have discovered. In reality, when Labour left office in 2010, the UK deficit stood at 10.3 per cent of GDP, but when the Conservatives left office in 2024, this stood at 4.4 per cent of GDP, despite having had to borrow billions to support people and the economy through the pandemic and the global cost-of-living crisis.

Further, a chunk of the claimed black hole is down to political decisions by the UK Labour Government, a point rehearsed by many of my colleagues. Even worse, they now admit that no impact assessment was carried out on a policy that will affect an estimated 500,000 pensioners in Wales alone. No impact assessment: that's not good government under any party.

They're urging pensioners to check if they could be eligible for pension credit to secure the winter fuel payment. They therefore undermine their argument that this is somehow a fiscal decision, with the think tank Policy in Practice stating that if all 880,000 eligible pensioners applied for pension credit, the Treasury could face a bill of £3.8 billion—a point made again by one of my colleagues—and dwarfing the £1.4 billion saving from scrapping non-means-tested winter fuel payments.

Additionally, an estimated 130,000 older people in the UK will miss out because they're just £500 over the income threshold to claim pensions credit, reinforcing the call for action by the Older People's Commissioner for Wales to resolve the issue of the cliff edge, whereby older people who are ineligible for pension credit because of incomes just above the threshold miss out on support entirely. Age UK estimates that 2.5 million pensioners on low incomes, but not low enough to get pension credit, will struggle to pay their bills this winter. Age Cymru have stated that 

'cutting the winter fuel payment this winter, with virtually no notice and no compensatory measures to protect poor and vulnerable pensioners, is the wrong decision.'

The lack of foresight is also highlighted by the Motor Neurone Disease Association, who have said:

'Means-testing the Winter Fuel Payment will take no account of the unavoidable costs of living with a highly disabling condition like MND. People coping with this devastating condition do not deserve to lose the support they rely on this winter.'

That also applies to hundreds of thousands of other people with other serious conditions. As National Energy Action Cymru have stated, the decision to limit the winter fuel payment to pensioners receiving pensions credit has raised wide concerns about the impact on the ability of older people to keep warm and well at home, leaving many pensioners in need without support this winter.

That is what our motion is about today. I therefore urge all Members to send this message, the message articulated by NEA, Age Cymru, Age UK, MND Association and so many others, to the UK Government by supporting our motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will defer voting until voting time at the end of the afternoon.

Voting deferred until voting time.