Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, why does the Labour Party think that scrapping the winter fuel payment for struggling pensioners is a good idea?

Well, it’s very interesting that we’ve had quite a lot of discussion about this, of course, yesterday with the First Minister, and I’m delighted that we’ve got questions and also a debate this afternoon. I think it is important that we debate this in this Chamber, because what we have to do in terms of this difficult decision that was made by the UK Government because of the fact that your last Government had wrecked our economy, leaving that £22 billion black hole in the public finances—[Interruption.] I said yesterday that I’m going to say this quite a few times, as other Ministers and Cabinet Secretaries will. But the important point, Joel, is that we have to ensure that people in Wales, including pensioners, claim every £1 that they’re entitled to, and, importantly—and this is where I’m working closely with the UK Government—increase the take-up of pension credit, because that will unlock not only access to the winter fuel payment this winter, for many pensioners who aren’t taking it up in Wales, but will also unlock other benefits to them as well.

I believe that it’s clear to everyone that the scrapping of the winter fuel payment for so many vulnerable old people is not only exceptionally short-sighted but utterly callous. We know that there is a considerable amount of pensioners who live just above the threshold to qualify for pension credit. We know that many people are not claiming pension credit who are entitled to it. We know that fuel prices are predicted to go up by around 10 per cent in October this year. And so, Cabinet Secretary, we know that this policy will undoubtedly cause a large number of pensioners to likely switch off their heating this winter. The fact that Wales has 15 per cent more pensioners as a proportion of the population, compared to England, also means that Welsh pensioners will be disproportionately affected. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, since the Labour-run UK Government hasn't, what assessment have you made of the impact of winter fuel allowance cuts in Wales, and what additional resources do you now expect to have to find to support Welsh pensioners?

An important follow-up question indeed. I was very pleased to receive a letter from the Right Honourable Liz Kendall MP—she's the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions—only this week, in response to my correspondence, my letter, to her earlier in the summer, to ask the questions about how can we address this in terms of meeting the needs, particularly, of our poorest pensioners in Wales, who are not claiming pension credit. And many of you will be aware that our former Older People's Commissioner, Heléna Herklots, took this as a very strong pension credit campaign. We were involved as a Welsh Government in that. So, we are engaging very closely with the UK Government campaign. We've shared with stakeholders across Wales the pension credit social media messages, we've got our Welsh Government 'Claim what's yours' campaign, encouraging people to contact Advicelink Cymru for help to claim with pension credit. We're putting posters in our doctors' surgeries. It's across the whole of Welsh Government that we're looking to help get this message across.

But I do think also that this is about prevention, about how we support our pensioner households in Wales. And the investment of £30 million this year into our Warm Homes Nest scheme to tackle fuel poverty for homeowners and households renting with private landlords is crucially important. Now, can I just say one other point? Not enough pensioners are taking up our discretionary assistance fund to provide emergency support for households. So, I do urge you to take up, with your constituents, and particularly pensioners, and give them the information, particularly via our 'Claim what's yours' campaign, of discretionary assistance payments, which is something that we in Wales have of course supported and made a priority in our budget.

Cabinet Secretary, you have said, and I quote:

'The decision that the Winter Fuel Payment will no longer be universal risks pushing some pensioners into fuel poverty.' and it does risk hurting vulnerable older people. Yet the reality, as we have seen last week, Cabinet Secretary, is that UK Labour couldn't care less what this Welsh Government thinks. The fact that no Welsh Labour MPs voted to scrap this policy shows that the Labour Party is not interested in Wales. Will you now publicly condemn those Welsh MPs that failed to vote to scrap this policy, which will directly hurt so many vulnerable people in Wales? Thank you.

I can't believe the cheek, I would say, that's coming over. Yes, you're now in opposition in Westminster, but you were in power for 14 years of austerity, where you stripped so many of the benefits of pensioners. [Interruption.] Actually, I'm quite happy to quote from Liz Kendall's letter, because she says in her letter, 'As the first step to rebuilding Britain we must fix the foundations of our economy to make the changes our country desperately needs, given our dire inheritance'—dire inheritance—'including the £22 billion black hole in the public finances this year. We've had to make hard choices.'

But also she has accepted in terms of what the Welsh Government is doing to reach out and work with them to raise awareness of pension credit: 'I'm pleased to say that the Department for Work and Pensions'—obviously, it's the UK Government's responsibility, in terms of benefits—'will be directly contacting approximately 120,000 pensioner households, including in Wales, who are in receipt of housing benefit and who have been identified as eligible but not currently claiming pension credit.'

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. You berate the Tories, rightly, for 14 years of austerity, but the Labour Government are continuing with that flawed and damaging fiscal approach. Two worrying statistics for you as we head into the winter months: the last available excess winter deaths statistics, which were for 2021-22, showed 240 people in Wales died due to living in a poor home. Age Cymru’s latest report, published before the announcement of this cut to the winter fuel payment, shows that only 7 per cent—7 per cent—of those they surveyed currently receive pension credit, while nearly half said they were finding living costs a real challenge. Older people, as we know, are more vulnerable to the cold, are more likely to have conditions and disabilities that mean they need to use more energy to keep warm, and they live in Wales in less fuel-efficient houses, and pay some of the highest rates for their energy. A constituent of mine from the Neath valley got in touch. Her husband has a serious heart condition, which means they have to keep the heating on all day. She described to me how absolutely worried she is about this cut. She’s a former nurse, who worked all her life, and this is how we repay that service. She is not eligible for pension credit. She is claiming everything she can; she’s still not going to be able to keep that house as warm as she wants to. So, what conversations have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for health on how our health and care services will cope with the inevitable increased demand?

Thank you for that question, and it is important that we look at our Warm Homes Nest scheme, as I’ve already mentioned—£30 million a year to tackle fuel poverty for home owners and households renting from private landlords. Because this is where eligibility, again—. And I think it’s important that we do recognise that there are many people who are not eligible for pension credit, and that’s where we need to reach out to those people. But these eligible households, to access that Warm Homes funding, they can get a bespoke measure of packages to insulate, decarbonise their homes, leading to a reduction, because this is about reducing energy bills, moving people out of fuel poverty.

And also—and I know the First Minister mentioned this yesterday— something not happening in England, we provide funding to the Fuel Bank Foundation, and that’s a fuel voucher and heat fund scheme for those in fuel crisis, for people, not just people who are on prepayment meters, but people who are off grid. So, we have a responsibility—and I hope it’s shared across this Chamber—to actually promote access to these other benefits. And I look forward to actually meeting with the cross-party group—the fuel poverty cross-party group—very soon, and I’m sure the chair, Mark Isherwood, will be pleased about that.

But we have to look again at all the other benefits. We must reach out to ensure that, in our Welsh benefits charter—which is our way of actually developing a compassionate, person-centred delivery of benefits that we’ve got some control of—we can maximise household incomes.

I’m glad you mentioned the Warm Homes programme, because many of the thousands of people across Wales who provide essential, unpaid care to loved ones, saving the NHS and social services millions of pounds, are going to be amongst the hardest hit by this decision by Labour to cut the winter fuel payment. Those aged 65 plus make up the largest proportion of unpaid carers. A Carers Wales report, published in the last few days, shows an estimated 100,000 unpaid carers live in poverty, and nearly one in 10 unpaid carers live in deep poverty, and the rate of deep poverty amongst unpaid carers is 50 per cent higher than amongst the rest of the population. Carers, of course, face increased costs, such as higher energy bills, which further exacerbate their financial difficulties, with many struggling to afford basic necessities, such as heating and food.

Given the cut to the winter fuel programme, and the stark findings of this Carers Wales report, will the Welsh Government make carers allowance a qualifying benefit for the home-efficiency improvements provided by Welsh Government-funded energy efficiency schemes, and will Government ensure that carer-related benefits are not counted as income when assessing eligibility for the Warm Homes Nest programme?

Well, thank you for that also very important question in terms of this cross-Government responsibility that we’ve got. Obviously, this is something on which I’m working very closely with all my colleagues in Welsh Government from health and social care. And carers, obviously, are crucial to this, and I acknowledge that really important report from Carers Wales.

Can I just say one other point that came from the letter from Liz Kendall, which I think is encouraging to us here in Wales? She says, ‘In the longer term, the only way to guarantee greater uptake is to make the whole process'—this is in terms of claiming pension credit particularly, but other credit benefits—'more automatic.' So, the UK Government is going to bring forward the administration of housing benefit and pension credit into more of an automatic process. But, also, from a UK Government perspective, the Warm Homes discount of £150 is also available, but it's not just to those on pension credit, it's to those on housing benefit with high energy costs too. But we will look at the recommendations of the Carers Wales report.   

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. The decision to limit the winter fuel payment to pensioners receiving pension credit has, of course, raised wide concerns. The older people's commissioner, Age Cymru, Carers Wales and National Energy Action are among those who have warned about its impact on the ability of older people to keep warm and well at home, and that it would leave many pensioners in need without support this winter. Energy prices remain far above pre-crisis levels and are set to rise further, as you know, by 10 per cent on 1 October, just as people need to be turning their heating on or up. National Enery Action Cymru has also warned that vulnerable households across Wales are weighed down by over £3.3 billion of energy debt, largely built up over the last two years. This is double what it was before the energy crisis and, beyond this winter, analysts suggest that energy prices will not return to pre-pandemic levels this decade. Both the south and north of Wales remain in the top three most expensive regions across the UK. So, what conversations have you had with the UK Government and Ofgem around the introduction of a mandated social energy tariff, along with targeted support to reduce energy debt levels in order to alleviate fuel poverty in Wales?

I absolutely agree that we have to move forward in terms of tackling that unacceptable level of debt. As you will know, and across this Chamber, I've called for a social tariff to be implemented. I'm also very concerned about the price rise cap that Ofgem announced in the summer as well. I'm meeting Ofgem to discuss that. I'm also very concerned about standing charges, which you know are now being reviewed at the moment. So, yes, thank you again for putting that on the agenda as part of the way in which we can tackle this. But I think, also, I have engaged—. I want to say that I have engaged with Ed Miliband, the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero on this. And I would just say, in terms of sharing his letter, he does say, 'Reducing fuel poverty is a crucial part of our clean power mission. Through our Warm Homes plan, the Government will invest an extra £6.6 billion in energy efficiency funding over this parliament to upgrade 5 million homes and cut bills for families'. Well, I will be meeting with him and his team to see how we can benefit from that in Wales.