Item 7 is the Finance Committee debate: Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2025-26 budget. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Motion NDM8642 Peredur Owen Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the engagement work undertaken by the Finance Committee regarding the Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2025-26 budget, and further notes the representations made by participants at the following events:

a) a stakeholder event at Canolfan S4C yr Egin, Carmarthen;

b) citizen engagement focus groups; and

c) engagement events with young people.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a great pleasure to rise today to open this Finance Committee debate on the Welsh Government’s spending priorities for 2025-26. 

These debates have become an invaluable tool for us as a committee to relay to the Welsh Government how its budgetary decisions are affecting people from all parts of Wales on a day-to-day basis. It allows us to take a temperature check of how funding, or the lack of it, is impacting people at the coal face, and to feed those views back to the Government, which will set out its spending priorities later in the year, in the draft budget.

We value the willingness of our stakeholders to take part in the committee’s engagement work, and we are grateful to those who have spoken so passionately and honestly about their observations, which are, in many cases, also their own lived experiences. Many participants came with the objective of providing practical solutions for how funding could be used more effectively, reminding us all that we are all working towards a common goal, namely to improve the lives of people here in Wales.

I hope that the Welsh Government will take heed of the views expressed in the report and will set its priorities next year with these in mind.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our engagement work on next year’s budget was made up of three strands: a stakeholder event at Canolfan S4C yr Egin in Caerfyrddin, numerous focus groups with organisations and citizens across Wales, and youth engagement events, including a dedicated focus group with students at Coleg y Cymoedd, and a drop-in session at the Urdd Eisteddfod.

Before I set out our priorities, I would like to emphasise that next year’s budget will be developed in a different context, following the election of a new Government at Westminster. Clearly, it is too early to assess the impact of this on the Welsh Government’s funding position, but I would like to take this opportunity to ask the Cabinet Secretary what indications she has had from the Chancellor or the Treasury on developments in this area.

I also want to express disappointment that the Welsh Government intends to publish the draft budget late again this year, on 10 December. However, I accept that there are uncertainties until the Chancellor confirms the date of the autumn fiscal event, and I do welcome that the draft budget will be published during the Senedd term this year, which will at least allow Members in the Siambr to consider the proposals as soon as they are published.

Dirprwy Lywydd, turning now to our engagement work. As a general observation, there is an understanding that governmental resources are tight, and that there is an undeniable focus on reducing inefficiencies rather than increasing funding. In short, the economic climate is tough. The long-term impact of the cost-of-living crisis continues to permeate the financial context, and its impact is found across the priority areas we identified in our report. This, exasperated by global events and the increased reliance on public services, which are themselves struggling to operate effectively, are combining to paint a bleak picture.

However, despite the Welsh Government’s assertion in its budget narrative last year of protecting core front-line services, stakeholders felt that there is a need to have less short-term reactive decision making, believing it has come at the expense of longer term, strategic budgeting. As one participant told us,

'Throwing money at things isn’t the solution, it’s how it’s spent rather than how much is spent.'

In practice, this includes moving away from using agency staff in the health, social care and education sectors in particular. As a result, our report identifies some key priority areas that we expect to be addressed by the Welsh Government’s budget for the next year.

First of all, there is a desperate and long-standing need to develop a sustainable and holistic approach to funding health and social care, which is joined up and rooted in collaboration with other front-line services. As one unpaid carer told our focus groups,

'In relation to health and social care, I find the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.'

Stakeholders at our event in Carmarthen spoke at length about the imbalance in funding between health and social care, which often leads to bottlenecks in the system. Addressing this would mean that patients could be transferred quicker from hospitals into social care, and back home. At all our events, there was a strong feeling that there needs to be a parity of esteem between social care workers and NHS staff.

Secondly, there is a clear and urgent need to address the budgetary pressures in the education sector, which we heard are at breaking point. With a number of schools facing compulsory redundancies and local authorities no longer having the resources to provide certain school services, there was a clear message from stakeholders that additional funding was sorely needed.

We heard concerns about how the cost of living is having an impact on children and young people needing to access free school meals, but how this is not always possible because income thresholds have not been raised in line with inflation. Concerns were also voiced about the most vulnerable children accessing affordable meals during the school holidays.

Students in one focus group told me that the cost of the school day is steadily increasing, particularly in terms of school uniform, visits and equipment. Again this year, and particularly from those we spoke to at the Urdd Eisteddfod, people feared that further cuts to the education sector would be catastrophic for the most vulnerable pupils, affecting key services targeted towards providing mental health care for pupils and supporting those with additional learning needs.

Thirdly, housing and building communities where young people feel supported to live and work was identified as a key priority. This came through strongly in our citizen focus groups. As one participant put it,

'Good quality housing should be a basic human right.'

The importance of building low-carbon and good-quality housing that can be easily adapted for people with disabilities and health conditions was raised. But it came across loud and clear that homes in the right places, close to schools, transport, shops and green spaces, is an essential element of effective planning, not only to reduce costs of building new infrastructure, but also to reduce the carbon footprint and to drive up economic growth. Investing in this way would not only help address the housing need, it would also have a number of spill-over benefits, namely lowering rents and competition, improving people’s health and well-being, lowering energy bills, and making homes more energy efficient.

Some participants also spoke passionately about the cultural benefits, including helping the Welsh Government to reach its target of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. Increasing the opportunities available for young people to stay in their communities, as well as providing funding for the language, could go some way to reversing the historic decline of Welsh speakers, especially in rural Wales. To build on this, developing a bilingual workforce and providing opportunities for young people to study and train through the medium of Welsh offers a practical solution, not only to help protect the Welsh language, but to allow it to thrive in our communities. 

Our fourth priority area relates to spending more efficiently and effectively to build the local economy by creating sustainable jobs, providing better transport links, and building affordable housing. Participants spoke about aligning policy levers so that, when investing in sectors such as health or in green transition, efforts should be made to maximise the benefits for local businesses and economies. It would be remiss of me not to mention the concerns around the reduction in rates relief and the huge impact this will have on certain sectors such as leisure and hospitality businesses, leading to the closure of venues and job losses.

Sadly, again this year, a number of stakeholders remarked on the unequal position that women occupy in the economy, with many working in part-time and low-paid jobs. Women are more likely to rely on public services, the very services that we know are under threat. High childcare costs were also identified again this year as preventing women from returning to the workplace. There was frustration with the Welsh Government’s decision to cut childcare support funding, but even more with the lack of assessment to understand why there was a low uptake of the offer, especially as it does not seem to align with the situation on the ground at all. Hardship funds were welcomed as a helping hand, however people felt that they masked the structural inequalities and investment in the budget, which need long-term solutions.

Finally, we want to know what will be done in the draft budget for young people. This is a demographic that features throughout our report as being disproportionately squeezed from almost every angle: pressures on education services; generational issues attributed to the pandemic and social media causing children and young people to turn to mental health services; erosion of funding available for further education apprenticeships; lack of affordable housing; lack of opportunities to work and live in the communities that they call home. I could go on, Cabinet Secretary, but instead, I will turn to what our focus groups and stakeholders offered as some solutions: free transport for young people—this has already been trialled in places like Rhondda Cynon Taf and participants told us that this makes a tangible difference; lowering the costs associated with higher education—it is currently having a detrimental effect on the ambitions of young people to seek further qualifications; focusing support for young people in rural areas by building affordable housing, encouraging sustainable farming as a viable livelihood, and providing better transport infrastructure for isolated communities; providing facilities for children and young people to enjoy in their communities, including access to the creative arts. These views cannot be ignored, Cabinet Secretary, and I look forward to seeing how the draft budget will take them into account.

Finally, I would like to briefly mention the awareness of Welsh taxes. Our work showed that knowledge and awareness of devolved taxes continues to be patchy, especially with regard to young people. It demonstrates that there is a long way to go and calls into question whether the work made by the Welsh Government as part of its budget improvement work is cutting through. Taxation is a key tool of Government to raise money to fund public services and it is vital that the public in Wales understands the tax powers of the Welsh Government.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the participants at all of our events over the last few months have given the committee and the Cabinet Secretary plenty of food for thought. Many of the solutions suggested by stakeholders seem to be win-wins to us in the committee, and we would like to see the Cabinet Secretary taking these ideas and initiatives forward in the draft budget for next year. I'd like to emphasise how valuable these sessions were in informing our report. I look forward to hearing the contribution of other Members and fellow committee Chairs on these issues, and hope that it will be a fruitful and constructive debate. Thank you. 

We have 13 Members who wish to contribute to this debate. 

I'm going to allow everybody to speak, but please be concise in your contributions to allow that to happen. 

I will call committee Chairs first. John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Speaking in my capacity as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, I would like to reiterate some of the committee's key conclusions following our scrutiny of the draft budget earlier this year. These are still relevant and important, and we would like to see them prioritised by the Welsh Government in the draft budget for next year. 

When I spoke this time last year, I emphasised our concern at the high number of people living in temporary accommodation and the importance of prioritising funding to enable people to be moved into long-term permanent accommodation. The £13 million increase to the housing support grant in the 2024-25 budget was urgently needed to address low wages in the sector and prevent service providers having to hand back contracts. Services funded by this grant are critical to the prevention and alleviation of homelessness. Therefore, this increase should be at least in line with inflation for next year. Funding for this crucial grant should, once again, be a priority for the Welsh Government.

I would like to emphasise, as I did last year, that securing long-term accommodation in safe surroundings should be a key priority for next year's budget. The statement published by the Welsh Government last week on its legislative programme for next year includes a commitment to bring forward a homelessness Bill to help people remain in their homes and focus on prevention and early intervention. It will be crucial to ensure that funding is prioritised in next year's budget to deliver this legislation effectively. It will be particularly important to prioritise funding for building and acquiring more social homes.

Another priority area should be to ensure sufficient funding to undertake remediation work on high-rise residential buildings, another area where the Welsh Government has committed to bring forward legislation next year, and for which sufficient funding will be crucial.

Dirprwy Lywydd, turning to local government, the unprecedented financial strains faced by local authorities is a recurring theme in our budget scrutiny. In the last financial year, local authorities faced one of the most challenging budget settlements in recent times, during a period of increased spending pressures on public finances. As a committee, we noted our concern that local authorities are in the position of knowingly having to make not only difficult decisions, but bad choices that will undoubtedly have an impact on the longer term sustainability of services. This cannot continue. The Welsh Government should continue to hold regular dialogue with local authorities to monitor their financial resilience and ensure that, going forward, funding for vital public services is prioritised.

Another recurring theme in our budget scrutiny is the underspend in the Gypsy and Traveller sites capital grant. It is essential that the Welsh Government continues to work with local authorities and the communities involved to encourage use and awareness of the grant and to provide clear guidance on applications. We will consider this further in our forthcoming follow-up work on the provision of sites for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, after which we are likely to make further recommendations. Diolch yn fawr.

Sam Rowlands on behalf of the Health and Social Care Committee.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to make just four brief points in my role as temporary Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee. The first is in relation to the health and social care workforce. As you'd expect, this is a particular area of interest for the committee and one where there are long-standing issues. Given the existing workforce shortages and the rising demand for services, there's a real need for investment in a skilled and sustainable health and social care workforce with a strong focus on improving retention of existing staff. The committee would express that this must remain a priority for investment and improvement by the Welsh Government, as it would mitigate and reduce risks and cost pressures in the long term. 

Secondly, on local authority social care services, our report as a committee on the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2024-25 expressed our concern at the record levels of demand for the services and the funding gap facing local authority social care services over the next few years. So, looking ahead, it will be crucial that the Welsh Government monitors access to social care services to ensure that future budget pressures do not mean that people who are eligible for care and support are denied those services. A specific point here, which I'd appreciate the Cabinet Secretary perhaps referencing in her response, is the funding for social care providers, who are clear that they require around a 10 per cent increase in funding to meet the certainly welcome increase in the real living wage. Some providers are only receiving a 3 per cent increase, which is not enabling them to meet the requirements of the real living wage. So, I’d urge the Welsh Government to fund this shortfall to ensure that we see these services continue in the future.

The third point from a committee point of view relates to health inequalities. This continues to be a significant issue for the health committee to consider, and the points made during the debate last year bear repeating. It's really important that any differential impacts of funding allocations on different groups and communities are assessed and taken account of during the development of the budget proposals, not just at the end of the process.

And finally on capital spend, the Health and Social Care Committee has previously reported that a lack of capital funding and investment is a barrier to service delivery now, not just in the future. This makes it all the more important that capital funding allocations are put to best use and that health boards' priorities for capital investment align with those of the Welsh Government. So, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could respond to these points. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell as Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to the Finance Committee for holding this debate today. I'd also like to thank the Chair of the Finance Committee and the officials for all of their work supporting the debate.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Members in the Siambr will be aware of the devastating impact that recent budget cuts are having on culture and sport in Wales. Our national organisations, such as Amgueddfa Cymru, the national library and arts council have all been subjected to significant reductions in their funding, whether they've had an impact on other organisations and institutions or not, which leads to real risks to our national collections and cultural life. The resulting job losses at these institutions have seen decades-worth of knowledge being lost overnight. This is knowledge that cannot be recouped.

The Welsh National Opera has seen its funding cut by 12 per cent by the Arts Council of Wales, and 35 per cent by Arts Council England. The Musicians’ Union told us, and I'll quote them in English:

'These reductions are leading to such significant and permanent changes at a national company that is structurally important for arts and culture in Wales that there is a strong case for the Welsh Government to step in with additional support.'

Funding challenges are also seen in other parts of the culture sector with other national institutions feeling the squeeze. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama has recently consulted on proposals to stop delivering some of its weekend programmes for young people. The funding situation facing the college is poor, but if these proposals do go ahead, Wales will be without a youth conservatoire to provide higher level training to young learners. Again, there is always a cap in place, it would appear, on the potential of our culture to flourish.

It’s not only culture that’s been hit hard. So have sport and physical activity. The Welsh Government has repeatedly told us time and time again that

'Sport can be the nation’s most effective preventative health tool'.

We as a committee agree. But where is the coherence in funding the NHS by cutting Sport Wales's budget by 8 per cent, thereby storing up bigger and more expensive problems for the NHS in future? If we're serious about protecting the national health service, we need to look at prevention as well as cure.

The real effect of decisions taken last year is now cutting through to our culture and sports bodies. Whilst the recent funding announcement for museums and the national library made by the previous Cabinet Secretary for culture was most welcome, it was a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed, something she recognised.

The committee will continue to make its calls for the Government to deliver sufficient funding to support culture and sport. We will, however, be constructive too. That's why we'll soon be launching an inquiry on the impact of funding reductions in culture and sport. We will be looking to provide recommendations to the Welsh Government in advance of the publication of the draft budget later this year. The Welsh Government must review the impact of this year’s cuts and make changes in the next financial year, and the committee looks forward to playing its role in this.

Jack Sargeant as Chair of the Petitions Committee.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. On the Senedd Petitions Committee, we have a unique position in this Parliament as the committee where our agenda is set by the people of Cymru. As a result, we often have a unique perspective on the issues that matter. During recent weeks and months, we have seen an increase in the number of petitions being submitted across a full range of the Welsh Government's responsibilities seeking greater funding, either directly or indirectly. The relevant Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers of the Welsh Government will already be familiar with most of them, but I wanted to use the opportunity today to draw attention to a few of those petitions.

One of these petitions is titled 'Fair and Adequate Resourcing of General Practice in Wales'. Deputy Presiding Officer, this one is pretty self-explanatory, but it received over 20,000 signatures and I know that general practice is an area that the health committee intends to look at later on this year, and this question is not going to go quiet.

In recent weeks we've seen three petitions addressing issues of funding for culture. We debated a petition, 'Increase, don’t cut, funding for the National Library, Amgueddfa Cymru and the Royal Commission'. We've requested a debate, as a committee, on the petition, 'Protect the junior departments of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama from closure', which is scheduled to take place in the autumn. And we have also considered a petition, 'Re-instate core funding for TRAC Cymru'. While some of these are funded from the education rather than culture budget lines, I think they speak to a widespread concern among cultural organisations in Wales that the squeeze on them is particularly acute.

Presiding Officer, the Chair of the Finance Committee—and I thank him for his time on the Petitions Committee as well—mentioned education funding in his opening remarks. We, as a committee, took evidence from school governors at the tail end of last year in support of their petition, a petition titled, 'Review the inadequate funding for Schools in Wales', and the committee has recently received correspondence from three teaching unions supporting this petition, calling for a review of education funding. We have shared this information with colleagues. Alongside these calls for a review of core funding, we have also received the petition, 'Extend Universal Free School Meals to secondary schools', which would, of course, Presiding Officer, require additional funding.

I share these petitions as a snapshot. There are others seeking extra funding for bus routes and for investment in new rail infrastructure. And other petitions asking for more cash for Natural Resources Wales to employ more inspectors and be a more muscular guardian of our rivers and to keep open our visitor facilities. I also know that there is only so much money to go around. The debate today gives our Senedd a chance to consider all the things that we want and all the things that we need, and to check that list against what we can realistically afford.

Llywydd, I hope my contribution today has highlighted some of the things that petitioners and their supporters, the people of Cymru, are seeking to hear about in the next budget round later this year. Diolch.

And Llyr Gruffydd, as Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m grateful for the opportunity to contribute, and I'm also grateful, of course, to the Finance Committee for its ongoing efforts to improve the scrutiny arrangements around the draft budget.

Now, the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee has already written to the Finance Committee to raise concerns about the quality of the documents accompanying the draft budget. We experienced significant problems this year, with key information requested by the committee missing without explanation, and other parts being inaccurate or incomplete. Now, we acknowledge, of course, that the Welsh Government is working under considerable constraints, particularly due to its reliance on the timing of the UK Government’s budgetary process. And Senedd scrutiny is almost always severely curtailed, unfortunately, as a consequence of that. May I suggest, therefore, that the Senedd explores more flexible scheduling options within the window available for scrutiny? Clearly, we can’t control the UK Government's timetable, but we can change our own procedures to ensure that we maximise the opportunities for effective scrutiny.

Now, this could include all-day Plenary sessions, it could mean increasing the number of committee meeting slots available, or extending the time available for those meetings. It could include different Plenary debates on each of the committee reports on the draft budget so that we ensure that we have covered all bases in a way that wouldn't be possible in one 90-minute debate. The Finance Committee Chair, I know, has already written to the Business Committee on some of these issues, and I look forward to seeing the response. 

Now, just briefly, I want to highlight two specific areas that fall within the committee's remit. The first is the funding of Transport for Wales. Members, I'm sure, will be highly aware of the financial challenges faced by Transport for Wales during the past year, including a £100 million funding gap arising from a shortfall in projected revenue growth from rail services. We, as a committee, of course, are pleased that the Welsh Government has stepped in to plug that gap, but we remain concerned about how sustainable the financial situation is. With that in mind, I have written, as Chair, on behalf of the committee, to the audit office, to ask them to consider the delivery of rail services and the delivery of the core Valleys lines modernisation project.

Secondly, Members will also be aware of the episode of Y Byd ar Bedwar broadcast earlier this week on S4C, which featured Natural Resources Wales, and included concerns from whistleblowers about the level of bureaucracy within the organisation and its continued failure in attending pollution events. Now, we, as a committee, continue to be concerned that a lack of resources within NRW is undermining efforts not only to protect Wales’s rivers but also the broader environment, which, as we've already heard in this Chamber this afternoon, are under constant threat from a range of sources.

So, in conclusion, I want to give an assurance to the Senedd that the committee will continue to review both those issues over the coming year. But I truly want to emphasise that we, as a Senedd, must be far more flexible and creative in scrutinising the draft budget in the future, and I hope that we can start to deliver that later this year. Thank you.

I want to thank my committee colleagues and the clerks for their work on this report, as well as the many stakeholders who contributed. I'll be speaking today as the Conservative spokesman rather than as a Finance Committee member.

The Finance Committee report does make for some interesting reading, and it highlights some important issues. Clearly, it feels that the wrong priorities have been pursued, or that knee-jerk budgeting has caused imbalances in the way that front-line services have been prioritised over preventative areas, demonstrating short-sightedness. There was recognition that, at a time where public services are needed more than ever, it was counterintuitive to be cutting key areas of public spending when citizens needed those services more now than ever, in a tough post-COVID climate. A clear example is the dire state of our healthcare and social services. Last year we saw a £450 million increase to the healthcare budget—money that was much needed, considering the years of underfunding in this area. While that funding was welcome, was it thought out, as there has been an inexcusable lack of forward thinking when it comes to our social care services? Last year we saw a massive real-terms cut to local government, with the Welsh Government increasing social care spending by circa £25 million, where the known pressures were nearer £260 million.

We cannot sort out the dire situation in our health service without real and meaningful focus on social care, as it is so fundamental to addressing the issues that our NHS faces day in, day out. I also strongly believe that our health service requires a root-and-branch review, to make sure our systems work well and that resources are used efficiently, because there is an opportunity cost to every pound not spent well.

Good public services require a strong and vibrant economy, but we know that Welsh businesses face higher taxes than in England, and struggle to find staff to fill roles when they choose to expand. This undermines growth. From the other side of the coin, people looking to advance themselves struggle to access the training needed to achieve the skills they need. They're faced with dire public transport, preventing them from widening their job prospects, and are likely to receive the lowest pay packet in the United Kingdom. So, it’s clear that the Welsh Government must do more to invest in our economy and promote growth. Too often, the economy seems to be an afterthought here. Where is the strategic thinking for Wales?

It was noted that women occupy an unequal position in the Welsh economy, as they are more likely to work part-time in lower paid jobs, and are more reliant on public services. This is partly due to the fact that there is an appalling lack of childcare options in Wales, forcing women out of the workforce for years at a time. The overwhelming majority of families require a double income to pay the bills, and the lack of affordable childcare means that women are being forced out of the workplace. Yes, the Welsh Government has claimed that cuts to childcare support are implemented because of the lesser-than-expected uptake here in Wales, as we've heard earlier, but as the report highlights, these reasons were not investigated, and that needs to happen.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it will be hard to turn the fortunes of Wales around, especially at a time of such political disarray within the Welsh Labour group and this shambolic Government. The state of affairs here, coupled with this Government's historic spending priorities, will do little to address the very real concerns that families across Wales have with the key issues that affect their lives so profoundly. Thank you.

May I thank the Finance Committee for your very thorough work on this? It's a very interesting report, it's a very serious report too, and I think that what has been interesting—but that doesn't strike me as the correct word—was to hear all of the committee chairs outlining the wide range of concerns that have been expressed on a cross-party basis—these aren't party political points—but the real, real problem there is in terms of a lack of resources and how unsustainable the situation is.

I was very pleased to hear Delyth Jewell talking about the importance of the preventative agenda, because we've seen time and time again over the past decade and beyond preventative measures being cut, being undervalued, because of the crises that we're facing. But the seriousness of the situation also comes through clearly from the Finance Committee, through the engagement work, in terms of what the reality of this is for the people of Wales. And I'm particularly pleased that you've done that work with children and young people, and that we have that very important insight, because, after all, we're famous worldwide for having a Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, but we're failing to observe that in our budget, and we can't continue to talk about the importance of future generations without starting to invest in them and having those conversations.

So, it's important that we listen to what is coming through this report, but not just listen, but act too. So, I'm very grateful for that. And I regret that the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee isn't here, because, from hearing Jack Sargeant's contribution too, speaking about the petitions that have been submitted specifically related to children and young people, that's a vital committee for us, and I hope that the Chair will be able to contribute in future to these discussions, because they are vital.

Obviously, there's no getting away from the fiscal foundations that have been wrecked by Tory austerity, but we're not seeing any signs that things are going to get better. In fact, the new Labour Government at Westminster is seemingly set to continue the austerity agenda. Even if the UK Government succeeds in boosting growth in line with the OBR's medium-term projection of 1.8 per cent, which has been described as implausibly optimistic by numerous economic analysts, they will still have to contend with hefty and, thus far, unaccounted holes in the public purse worth billions of pounds. And ironically, for a party so obsessed with growth, the UK Labour Party also stubbornly refused to pull the most obvious and effective lever to achieve this goal, namely rejoining the single market and the customs union. Despite previous assurances from the likes of the former First Minister, therefore, that an incoming Labour UK Government would deliver the investment that Wales needs, all the evidence paints a very familiar picture of Wales being forced to contend with crumbs from Westminster's table, which are simply insufficient for our needs.

The implications have been laid out by the Wales Governance Centre, with non-ring-fenced areas of the Welsh budget facing a shortfall of £248 million by the next financial year, and £683 million by 2028-29. And I think it's worth reminding everyone of the brunt that these areas have had to bear in recent times. Over £400 million was shaved off all MEGs other than health and transport as part of the budget for the current financial year, which followed an unprecedented in-year reprioritisation exercise last October. And we should also note that Labour's plans are based on a 5 per cent real-terms reduction in the Welsh Government's capital spending power, which is particularly alarming when you consider that the NHS estate in Wales is facing £0.25 billion-worth of backlog high-risk maintenance costs. 

So, the Cabinet Secretary has two options when it comes to shaping the Government's spending priorities over the next year, and for the sake of providing at least a degree of clarity for our public service providers, as well as to avoid a repeat of the unhelpful turbulence caused by October's in-year re-budgeting exercise, I would urge her to commit to one today. The Cabinet Secretary can either clearly spell out how the Welsh Government intends to address the upcoming shortfall in funding, or the Cabinet Secretary can echo Plaid Cymru's message to the UK Government, reflected in our amendment to the King's Speech today, that their current offer to Wales is simply not good enough, and that replacing the outdated Barnett formula with a fairer funding deal based on multi-year budget cycles is an existential necessity for our public services. Because, frankly, given the severity of the fiscal bind in which the Welsh Government finds itself, we will not be able to deliver for the people of Wales without the resources that we require here in Wales. 

As a member of the Finance Committee I want to thank our Chair, Peredur Owen Griffiths, for his diligence, and my fellow committee members Mike Hedges, Peter Fox, and our committee clerks, who support all our work. And as we debate the Finance Committee's engagement report into the Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2025-26 budget, I will focus my remarks today on culture, but today I will not speak of the 14 years of fiscal austerity.

The report notes in its summary of findings at point 3 that culture was identified by the committee's focus groups as a priority for funding, and I do welcome the culture committee inquiry. The editorial of the national newspaper of Wales, the Western Mail, states that the future of arts in Wales could hang in the balance. And Ben Summer’s WalesOnline deep-dive into culture states that arts are under attack in Wales and we should all be worried.

So, Deputy Llywydd, I speak today not only as the Member for Islwyn and a member of this committee, but also as the chair of the Senedd's cross-party group on music, and as a musician. Welsh National Opera, the world-renowned jewel in the Welsh crown, faces cuts that will see it becoming part-time, unable to recruit the finest talent or retain talent, and the drop to mediocrity that could potentially unfurl is serious. It needs to be maintained, as the petition states, as a full-time company, which is signed by over 10,000 people, and with a statement published in The Times and The Guardian from Elizabeth Atherton being endorsed by icons such as Bryn Terfel, Katherine Jenkins, Michael Sheen and Ruth Jones. And on 21 May I addressed the crowd that gathered at the steps of our Senedd, led by renowned conductor Carlo Rizzi, demanding that this Parliament stand up and fight for the survival of Wales's full-time opera company, which has been in existence for 70 years—the people's opera, formed by Welsh miners, doctors and musicians in 1943 alongside the creation of our NHS.

And the cut to the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama's junior department is equally as shocking for Welsh culture, impacting 426 students and 112 part-time staff. The Musicians' Union warns these cuts will have a hugely damaging effect on professional music in Wales, and the petition here opposing the junior department cut has already surpassed 10,500 signatures. The closure of this will result in often very young Welsh children going to either London or Birmingham or Manchester to access similar provision. What a damning indictment that would be on us all as we mark 25 years of Welsh devolution. Even worse, nearly half of those students are receiving means-tested bursaries to attend junior Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. Clearly, here, the poorest gifted Welsh children will face huge barriers to continue their elite study, which will inevitably cause many to stop these studies. The arts, we know, are central to the spirit and soul of Wales, our nationhood and our sense of self, and wealth and income should not dictate the progression pathways into the arts.

To conclude, today I want to warn this Senedd, and I warn the Welsh public, that we face a destruction of Welsh cultural life as we know it. Only the Welsh Government has the power, influence and ability to intervene, and I urge Welsh Government to reprioritise and provide a £550,000 priority cash injection to Welsh National Opera, and for urgent talks to start formally with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and the University of South Wales to secure the future of Wales's only conservatoire on a new funding model. And unless the Welsh Government steps in as a priority to safeguard our Welsh National Opera and the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama's junior department, we will see and be present at a watershed moment in the regression of Welsh cultural life. 

Deputy Llywydd, pretending that sticking-plaster alternative arrangements that avoid funding our country's cultural needs will not wash with Senedd Members here or within the Welsh public. The time to act is now and I ask that the real harm being caused is reversed now before it is too late, and I call upon the current and the next First Minister to take urgent action and secure and fund as a priority the future of culture and music. We must remain the land of song internationally and at home now and for all our future generations. Diolch.

The Finance Committee report highlights, as we've heard, the lack of affordable housing and notes that housing and homelessness were mentioned this year more frequently than in all previous years. In 1999, when Labour first came to power here, there was no housing supply crisis in Wales, but they slashed the housing budgets during their first three terms. With Labour Governments in place in London and Cardiff, they cut the supply of new social and affordable housing by 71 per cent, according to their own official figures. 

It was during the second Assembly term, 2003 to 2007, when the Welsh housing sector came together to start warning the Welsh Government that there would be a housing crisis if they didn't listen. When I brought forward motions in support of this, all the Welsh Government did was put down amendments to remove the words 'housing crisis', rather than to address the warnings from the sector. As I said in the then Assembly Chamber in 2003, social justice sits on a three-legged stool—health and social care, education, and housing, and the stool would topple over if the housing leg was chopped. I warned that, by diverting funding for housing into its ultimately unsuccessful poverty-fighting programmes, the Welsh Government was throwing mud at the wall whilst digging up the wall's foundations. This is why we have a housing supply crisis. 

Only 2,825 new homes for social rent were completed in Wales in the first three years of this Senedd term to last December, against the Welsh Government's 20,000 target for the five-year term, and the latest National House Building Council figures show a 43 per cent drop in new homes registered in Wales, equal bottom out of 12 UK nations and regions.  

In its briefing paper for this debate, the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru calls for the 2025-26 budget to include, amongst other things, increased investment in the social housing grant to at least £407 million to account for inflationary cost increases and to ensure that the supply of affordable homes is at the right level to mitigate the current housing crisis and rising levels of homelessness. They call for the Welsh housing quality standard to be properly financed, for additional investment in the housing support grant to be sustained to ensure that homelessness is rare, brief and non-repeated, and for the right to adequate housing to be enshrined into Welsh legislation, where every £1 spent on progressively realising this will generate £2.30 in benefits that can be invested into Welsh public services. They also emphasised to me the need for a strategic vision for housing in Wales, with not enough homes and not enough homes for social rent and homelessness and housing waiting lists going in the wrong direction. 

Housing associations have briefed me on the key challenges to homelessness provision and the importance of prevention, with demand for homes huge, supply not meeting demand, and problems of affordability and overcrowding. The National Residential Landlords Association highlighted research showing that 38 per cent of landlords in Wales plan to reduce their property portfolio this year, versus just 3 per cent who plan to increase their portfolio. Homelessness charity Crisis told me that private rented sector landlords play a crucial role in our housing landscape, and that addressing the undersupply of affordable housing has a crucial role to play in ending homelessness in Wales. And the equality and housing charity, Tai Pawb, told me that Wales is in the midst of a housing crisis; demand significantly outstrips supply. 

Labour's betrayal over housing in Wales has been perhaps the greatest social injustice inflicted on the people of Wales since they took control in 1999, and action to address the causes of Wales's housing crisis is very long overdue.

The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee will again focus on the Welsh Government's plans for spending on justice-related matters. The committee hopes to see further work the Welsh Government has made to improve their transparency of spending on justice matters. Any improvement will help both the committee and our stakeholders to better understand where money on these important matters is being spent.

I will start with a report back from the meeting held in Carmarthen, which I attended along with Peredur Owen Griffiths and Altaf Hussain, with the Finance Committee, with the invited organisations, and you're going to hear different things from me than you did from Peredur, because we were on different tables.

On the economy, the following issues were raised: the need to build more houses, which will both reflate the economy and start to address the housing shortage; construction apprentices are needed to ensure that we have adequate capacity to build the houses and infrastructure we need. Money is needed to maintain infrastructure. We cannot build and expect roads and buildings to last forever with no maintenance. The twenty-first century schools programme was welcomed and was seen as an excellent example of effective capital spend. The need to review planning policy to help grow our economy. Education is the key to economic growth. School funding is important, so that every pupil can reach their potential. The importance of apprentices was stressed. The need to build capacity, especially in areas such as town planning, leadership and management was raised. The need to protect further education funding was seen as a priority. There was a belief that there's a need for more degree-level apprenticeships, including civil engineering, to boost economic growth. Successful economies are knowledge based. Economies are supported by high-quality graduates and by the university sector. University research is very important to improving our economy, as we move towards more of a knowledge-based economy.

There was also concern that local housing allowance was underfunded. Rent inflation means that local housing allowance is not enough to pay for accommodation. Too many people are having to use temporary accommodation. There's been a growth in in-work poverty due to low and variable hours, combined with pay at the minimum wage. Universal free school meals were described as very important to ensure children are not hungry in school, but support is needed during the school holidays as well.

The main area of Welsh Government expenditure is health and social care. Early social care intervention and early health intervention can reduce the number attending A&E and needing to enter hospital. There's a need to have a pay structure in social care that keeps staff from leaving. The real living wage in social care is a move in the right direction, but pay still needs to increase.

My view on the budget, five key points: increased productivity is needed, especially within hospitals; primary care needs more support to reduce the numbers going to A&E either because they can't get an appointment or because their health has deteriorated while waiting for a GP appointment; education is the key to improving productivity and building a knowledge-based economy; local government provides key services that need support; I agree with the discussion group in Carmarthen that we need to build more houses, increase the number of people with construction skills and improve infrastructure—

Mike, will you take an intervention?

Certainly, Carolyn.

So, all these things you're mentioning are public services—or most of them—so would you agree with me that public services are the building blocks for us to build the economy? So, we need to properly fund public services, which we haven't been doing—well, the UK Government haven't been doing—for the last 14 years, but that's what we need to do to get that balance going.

I agree with you entirely. People in here, before you came here, will have been used to me saying that local government provides the basis of a civilised society, and they provide the key services, not just education and social services, which we talk about a lot, and not just roads, which I know you take a great interest in, Carolyn, but all the other, what is it, 530 or 540 services a local authority provides. I can't give you the list, and you wouldn't let me anyway, Deputy Presiding Officer. [Interruption.] Certainly.

Just to build on that important point that Carolyn Thomas raised there, I'm sure you would accept that those taxes to fund those public services are impossible without an economy that works well.

Yes. That's why I talked about a knowledge-based economy and a higher wage economy. We have too many low-paid jobs with irregular hours, and people are in poverty because of it.

I'm looking forward to Plaid Cymru and the Conservatives producing alternative budgets. [Interruption.] Please. What we know from Plaid Cymru is that, to produce a budget for an independent Wales, we would need to stop funding the state pension and not pay our proportion of the national debt. [Interruption.]

Finally, if the budget does not pass, the following occurs: funding is reduced to 90 per cent of this year's funding for next year. Third sector organisations will be giving three months' notice in January to their staff. There will be problems throughout the public sector. Of course, if this Senedd cannot agree a budget, then the only way out of this impasse is a Senedd election to elect a Senedd that can pass the budget. [Interruption.] Do you see why you came fourth in the last election?

Poverty doesn’t happen by accident. It’s created and deepened by political choices—political choices that are decided by fiscal choices. And we heard there about the need to fund our local authorities because it’s our poorest who depend most on our local authority services, on public services. We saw nothing today about redistribution, the desperate redistribution of wealth that we need in this country to fund those services properly, to help those people who are falling into destitution and poverty in one of the richest nations on earth.

The new UK Labour Government’s failure to outline a credible and costed plan to bring a definitive end to the callous dogma of austerity, brought in by the Tories, which obviously includes this shameful decision not to scrap the two-child benefit cap, should set alarm bells ringing amongst those here who are tasked with designing the Welsh budget.

We’ve long been aware of the devastating and far-reaching impact of austerity in widening and entrenching social inequalities, whether in terms of the shocking prevalence of child poverty, the 12 per cent real-terms shrinkage in local government finances that has led to vital social services being cut to the bone, or the 37 per cent increase in foodbank usage across Wales over the previous year alone, and it was already at a record level.

Uprooting this disastrous legacy will therefore require years of sustained and purposeful effort on part of both the Welsh and UK Governments, and any delay on this front will simply allow the cracks in our society to widen even further. The work of renewal and of restoration has to begin in earnest now, but the promise of change from a Starmer Government is rapidly evaporating under the reality that its offer to Wales implies yet more contractions to our already insufficient and overstretched resources.

As we heard outlined in the report of the Finance Committee, the issue is compounded by the fact that Welsh Labour’s chaos has now left us without a dedicated spokesperson for social justice, so who is making the urgent case to Westminster that Wales cannot simply afford a rebadged version of austerity? It was the social justice budget that received the largest proportional cut in the last Welsh Government budget, and inevitably compromised, therefore, this Government’s ability to address the deep-rooted inequalities, both social and economic, in our society, and their effect on Welsh citizens. 

So, in the interest of honesty and full disclosure as we approach the start of the next budget cycle, I’d be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could answer the following questions: do you truly believe that an end to austerity is possible within the current parameters of the Welsh budget, and if so, could you explain how this can be achieved in practical terms, given that non-ring-fenced areas of the Welsh budget are facing a £248 million shortfall next year? And do you agree that unless we see action from the UK Labour Government to help us end austerity, to deliver real change, then Wales will remain in a financial situation where we cannot adequately support the needs of our most vulnerable citizens?

Change must be real and meaningful. Fairness can only be achieved by strategic, costed anti-poverty and equality measures, and spending must follow strategy, because empty rhetoric will not fill empty stomachs.

So, we can’t spend money we haven’t got, so we have to focus on reducing inefficiencies. Why, for example, do we have two bodies in charge of historic buildings—Cadw and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales? Is it because the latter has 'royal' in its name, which prevents us amalgamating? Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary could elucidate us. But across the piece, we now have 58 bodies that fall under the need to comply with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We are a population of 3 million, and we have to start thinking about how we can deliver our public services more effectively by collaborating and combining effort.

Today, I learnt that the six north Wales local authorities have appointed six different conservationists, when sharing such a scarce number of individuals who would be able to do that specialist job, rather than competing against each other in a very limited field, feels like a better argument for collaboration and partnership has to be the way forward.

How good are we at delegating budgets to one body on behalf of the others? This came up at an Institute of Welsh Affairs round-table with private, public and voluntary sector bodies that I attended today. We are brilliant policy makers and legislators. We are less good at implementation. So, we really do have to work harder at reaping the benefits of our policies and legislation, and ensure that we do a bit better on that front. This is really the biggest challenge that we have.

For example, free school meals. I'll speak on behalf of the cross-party group on school food, because we've covered this quite a lot. The Welsh Government reimburses local authorities to the extent of £3.20 per meal. That should be well possible as long as there aren't inappropriate relationships between suppliers and caterers, and schools are capable of using the food resource to create nourishing meals and also to avoid food waste. So, do all schools get primary pupils to order their meal in advance? There are two really good reasons for that. One is it avoids the anxiety that a child can have about being asked to eat something they don't like, but also we absolutely can't justify food waste.

The CPG learnt last week that sickness levels and absenteeism are a major issue in one local authority, and we know from earlier discussions that these issues are not unique to that particular authority. We are trying to compete for people who know how to cook with the hospitality industry, and we are probably never going to arrive on that one. We're going to have to think about how we're going to grow our own and do things differently.

I invite you all to read a Public Health Wales document that popped up in April, called, 'Opportunities for improving childrens health in Wales. The potential of school food.' I thought, initially, this is a document that's telling me everything I already know. Then I looked at the infogram of the complex web of who’s involved and how many different organisations are involved. I refer you to pages 8 and 9 of this document to show you just how complicated the commissioning of the delivery of school meals is, and we know so little about what's actually going on.

So, Gareth Thomas of the Welsh Local Government Association did a presentation recently. Eighteen of the 22 local authorities are part of WLGA's certification process, but no audit—no audit—is taking place as to whether what local authorities promise to do is what is actually done. I suggest that needs some attention.

Lastly, we heard from various parties who've been part of the Welsh Government evaluation, internally, that the schools that had the highest number of pupils eligible for free school meals are the ones that have the lowest uptake of the universal free school meal programme that we are investing millions in, for all pupils. Now, the WLGA says that the uptake figures they have are not sufficiently robust to merit publication, and I await with interest the publication of the figures—

Thank you, Jenny.

—from the Cabinet Secretary for Education, to update us on the figures in June 2023.

Thank you, Jenny. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would agree with the point that Jenny Rathbone had made in opening, with her remarks around the need to look at how we actually can govern more efficiently. I'd point towards the Development Bank of Wales and Business Wales. We have two bodies there that are seemingly doing the same thing with the same objective, which is helping to develop Welsh businesses. I'd question whether we need two bodies. Is there a way in which we can focus the Development Bank of Wales in a way that actually achieves what it set out to do? And I would urge Members to read the most recent report from the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee on the Development Bank of Wales, where we call for the reform of those structures, and that, I would put to the Cabinet Secretary, could be one way of finding an efficiency saving right there.

One other thing I'd like to raise with the Cabinet Secretary is something that I've raised multiple times with her already. I raised it with her in the Chamber, I've raised it with her during the Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill scrutiny, and that's varying the multiplier when it comes to business rates. This potentially could be a cost-neutral policy. I think we need to look at actually how we support businesses, because we've seen that reduction in business rates relief, and we know that the Government is hard pressed to be able to reverse that decision, but one way in which we can help those businesses affected by that cut in business rates relief is to look at who is paying what exactly, who is paying too much, and who is paying too little. I would argue, for example, that out-of-town shopping centres and supermarkets should be paying far more than they are paying right now, and then put those savings on then to the hospitality sector. This is something that Hospitality UK and the Music Venue Trust, amongst others, have been calling for for some time. So, potentially there we have a policy that could be cost-neutral, but have so much benefit to businesses in different sectors, thereby potentially allowing other businesses to set up, and thereby increasing the revenue coming in to Welsh Government.

And just as a personal interest of mine, we've heard multiple Members in the Chamber talk about housing as an issue that needs to be resolved and needs to be a priority of Welsh Government. One thing I would like to look at is how we can change the planning system and reform the planning system to make it far easier for local authorities to convert commercial properties into rental accommodation. So, for example, your typical shop on the high street that might have some space above it, how can we make it easier for councils to change that space above those shops into one-bed or two-bed flats, where we know we specifically have a shortage when it comes to those specific types of accommodation? That again will allow Welsh Government and local authorities to bring in more revenue, but it also will have a positive effect on businesses, by creating that in-built footfall within our town centres; by moving people into the town centres, they'll spend more money, more tax comes in, and more revenue for Welsh Government. So, I would just make those three points, Dirprwy Lywydd. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office. Rebecca Evans.

Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to respond to the debate today, and very much want to thank the Chair of the Finance Committee and all of the Members who have contributed this afternoon, and of course everyone who took part in the committee's engagement exercise, which I have to say becomes more comprehensive every year, so I'm really grateful for the work that they share with us on that. And it is of course important that we engage with and listen to the people of Wales as we start our preparations for the 2025-26 budget, and the points that have been raised in the Finance Committee's report and here today are things that we will need to collectively consider, and of course they will help to shape our thinking as we move towards our 2025-26 budget.

The result of the UK general election provides a unique opportunity for us to reset those relationships and begin a new era of partnership, with two Governments working together on a shared vision for Wales. The financial situation that we are facing, though, today, is the result of the mismanagement of the economy by the previous UK Government. They gave us more than a decade of austerity and the disastrous mini-budget, and of course the cost-of-living crisis and soaring double-digit inflation, so I've got to say that lectures from the Conservative benches about investment in housing or public services, I'm afraid, really do defy credulity. [Interruption.] I'm not taking an intervention at this point. The economic and fiscal position that the new UK Government has inherited is incredibly difficult, and of course it will take time for public finances to recover. We just simply can't wish away the last 14 years and their impacts, no matter how much we would like to. 

As we look ahead to the next Welsh Government budget, it will once again be very challenging, and we will have to focus on our most important priorities, and there simply won't be enough money to meet all of the pressures that we face. And as some colleagues have referenced, the Wales Governance Centre has produced some medium-term projections for the Welsh Government's budget, using the former UK Government's assumptions for the trajectory of discretionary public expenditure, and taking account of the information from UK party manifestos for the general election. And those projections, as some colleagues have referenced, clearly show the nature of the challenges ahead of us. One of the first steps that the Chancellor has taken has been to request that HM Treasury provides an assessment of the state of UK public finances, and this will be presented before the UK parliamentary summer recess. The Chancellor will then also set out the details on the timing of the UK budget.

It will be helpful to have early clarity on the timing and the scope of the forthcoming UK fiscal events to aid our budget preparations, but it does though seem likely that we won't know our budget until the autumn, as the new UK Government needs some time to consider and set out its plans. Given the current uncertainty about when we will know our settlement beyond the current financial year, we have notified the Senedd's Business Committee and Finance Committee that we must currently work on the basis of publishing the outline and detailed draft budgets together on 10 December 2024 and the final budget on 25 February 2025.

I do absolutely recognise the challenge that this poses in scrutinising the draft budget. Of course, it presents a challenge for us in terms of preparing the budget as well. For the budget that we have in this financial year, we had just three weeks and four days to prepare that budget. And when you think about the whole raft of information that goes alongside it, from our tax reports to our budget narrative, to the work that the chief economist does, that's an awful lot of documentation that we provide in a very short period of time. And whilst we also always want to see what more we can provide, actually if there are things that we are producing that colleagues don't find useful, of course, we can move our efforts away from those things as well. Should the date of the UK fiscal event that confirms our settlement beyond this financial year be earlier in the autumn term, of course we will look to bring forward our budget timetable. And I will keep colleagues up to date on that.

There were some comments about the documentation and the information that we provide alongside the budget. The work that the Welsh Government is doing in partnership with the Finance Committee, again, is really important in this space because we are reviewing our budget protocol. We've come to agreement on lots of areas, and there are still some areas that we've asked our teams to focus on together over the summer with a view to continuing to make progress here. 

Many of the issues in the report of the Finance Committee reflect the issues that we have identified as our own Government priorities for this year. For example, we recognise the huge pressures within the NHS and public services, so we've made reducing waiting times and funding the NHS and social care one of our key priorities. We also know the cost-of-living crisis is still having a huge effect on people, which is why our core priorities include lifting children out of poverty through support in the early years. And, of course, the pressures on the education sector, which have been referenced, and the effect on students and staff is absolutely a concern that we share. And we've committed to a sustained improvement in educational attainment. 

Like everybody here, I recognise the importance of investing in prevention. For us to ensure that our services are sustainable into the future, it will require a different approach. And while in the near term we need to take difficult choices with the funding available, I have set out the new approach to our Welsh spending review. And I think the committee's report, again, is really helpful, as we go about starting that journey, which I'll be able to say more about in due course. 

 I've taken very careful note of colleagues' views and representations in respect of priority areas this afternoon, including social housing, the health and social care workforce, including the real living wage, primary care, the arts, culture and sport, Natural Resources Wales, rail services, FE apprenticeships, skills—so many areas, and nearly every contribution was asking for additional funding. So, I was very grateful to my colleague Heledd Fychan when she gave us all a mid-debate reality check in terms of the really challenging fiscal situation that we face. Because prioritisation, as some colleagues have recognised, will require deprioritisation in other areas. So, as ever, that challenge is there to identify where we disinvest. And of course that gets harder all the time. We've had such a long period of austerity, we've had the impacts of inflation, which led to our own reprioritisation exercise last year. 

I agree that we've got this legacy of austerity, as I outlined in my contribution, but do you agree that there are things that the UK Government could do to raise revenue, which then could be passed on through fairer funding to Wales? For instance, they could equalise capital gains tax with income tax, which it's estimated would raise between £8 billion and £16 billion, which would be more than enough, for instance, to help the NHS and to be able to more than fund scrapping the two-child benefit cap. So, there are things that could be done to raise revenue.

There are, of course, tools that the UK Government has available to it—for example, the announcements in respect of people with non-dom status, in respect of VAT for private schools. Those are a couple of areas where it has said that it will take action, and you saw that, then, at the back of the manifesto, where it sets out what additional funding would come to Wales if they undertook those actions. So, there are absolutely things that the UK Government can do, but the UK Government is mindful, as we are, that thanks to the actions of the Conservatives, individuals and households are feeling the highest tax burden that they've felt in 70 years, and we just have to give consideration to those things as well.

I did want to say that the Welsh Government hasn't protected itself from the difficult choices. We've gone through a period of a voluntary exit scheme for some of our staff. We've been very sad to lose some of our brilliant staff. I don't want colleagues to think when we're talking about the difficult choices being faced by our arm's-length bodies and others that somehow the Welsh Government is giving itself a different status in those discussions.

I can see I'm running out of time, so I do want to thank colleagues—

I've given you extra time for the interventions.

That's very kind; thank you. I do want to say 'thank you' to colleagues who have engaged with the questions around savings and the effectiveness of spend and also using other tools such as planning. I think that those are all really important interventions as well.

And then just to say that we've made some really tough choices on spending over recent years, but I think that there is so much we can be proud of, having engaged in mature politics here in the Senedd. Through working with Plaid Cymru on the co-operation agreement, we achieved a great deal, including free school meals for primary school pupils, providing additional free childcare, introducing a radical package of measures to create thriving local communities, and helping people to live locally and addressing high numbers of second homes in many areas of Wales.

I know that colleagues here recognise the substantial financial challenges that we face, but I think that it's through listening to each other and working collectively that we can make the biggest difference to people in Wales.

I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to respond to the debate. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. This has been an excellent debate. I welcome the high number of speakers, which reflects the strength of feeling in this Chamber. I'd first like to thank my fellow committee members, Rhianon, Peter and Mike, who contributed in their capacity as members of the committee, but also Mike in his capacity as Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee as well.

I'm also grateful to the committee Chairs for their contributions. John Griffiths talked about housing pressures being faced, in particular the need to provide funding to alleviate homelessness, which should be a priority for us all, a point also raised by Mark Isherwood, and this featured highly during discussions within our focus groups.

Sam Rowlands, you mentioned the difficulties facing the health and social care sector, especially shortages in the workforce of that sector, and the need to meet the requirements of the real living wage.

I'm also grateful to Jack for mentioning the petitions that have been submitted—about GP funding and also the core funding for education and all the other aspects that you talked about. Those were sentiments that have been brought forward in our stakeholder events.

You talked, Delyth, about the priorities of your committee, and you echoed some of the points raised by Jack and other Members about cuts in the arts and culture sector. Delyth made some powerful points about the impact that a shortage of funding in sporting facilities is having in terms of public services. She also talked about the cap on the potential for culture to thrive.

I also welcome the points made by Llyr, who urged the Government to improve documentation, but also the processes we have here in terms of how we undertake scrutiny that is curtailed because of issues that are beyond our own control. I'd also like to thank him for the other priorities that he highlighted.

I really appreciate the other contributions made by Heledd, Mark, who I mentioned earlier, Sioned, Jenny and Luke. You talked about those issues, and the Finance Committee will keep those in mind as we go through our scrutiny. I hope other Chairs of committees will bring those forward as well.

I acknowledge the Cabinet Secretary's comments about the immense budgetary pressures; there are huge pressures involved, but front-line services are being hit, and as Sioned powerfully said, it's the poorest in society that are being affected by all this. I know that's close to everybody's hearts in this place. I recognise the challenges of that late budget being brought forward, and, as a committee, we're not blind to those challenges.

We've had 13 contributions, and I'm trying to put everything together. I'd just like to thank everybody who's been involved in the process, thank all the stakeholders, all the public consultation that's gone on. I know it's going to be a difficult budget again this year, but I'm sure, between us, we'll do our best to scrutinise the Welsh Government and to bring those voices of people who are struggling to be heard into the budget-making process. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.