1. How will the Cabinet Secretary work with the new UK Government to improve river water quality in Wales? OQ61471

Thank you for the question. I'm very pleased to see water quality is clearly outlined as one of the key priorities of the new Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary of State. I've already held early discussions with the new UK Government and I'll continue to work closely with them on our shared vision for better water quality.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I’ve noticed how swiftly proceedings are going today, so I’m glad I made it in time. [Laughter.]

The Welsh Government has pioneered river pollution summits, bringing together key stakeholders such as regulators, water companies, developers, local government, farming unions, academia and the environment sectors. I think these are key meetings to have and I understand that four have taken place so far and the next one is going to be held at the Royal Welsh Show next week. Given the height of public interest in this topic, what progress does the Cabinet Secretary hope to make during the river pollution summit next week?

Thank you very much for that supplementary, and indeed, we’ve already achieved quite a lot since the first river pollution summit was held way back in 2022, and we’ve had, as you say, those regular meetings. We’re really pleased with the way that partners have taken forward actions already, but at the Royal Welsh next week—which is going to be a busy week for me, I understand; a chock-full diary—it does include the latest river summit. It focuses on the crucial role that agriculture can play.

It’s very clear from the data that a significant proportion, particularly of phosphorus pollution, in many of our failing special areas of conservation rivers can be attributed to rural land use. So, this is going to be a great opportunity at the Royal Welsh for the agricultural community and partners to continue to foster this proactive approach towards river stewardship, that we’re all in it together and we all have the solution, to recognise the crucial role for agriculture in particular, and how we can all encourage and support the sector, to take ownership of the impact on our waterways—the SACs in particular—and also to achieve a joint commitment on how to advance this work over the next two years. It’ll be a really good opportunity for sector representatives to demonstrate how they can and will drive the changes we need for the benefits of the river and the sector itself.

It’s worth pointing out as well that we’ve already committed significant levels of funding for the implementation of new regulatory requirements designed to protect the environment, and we also intend to provide significant funding through the collaborative approach we’re taking to the design of the sustainable farming scheme. But we’ve got to be clear that everybody has to play their part and unpermitted pollution should not be happening at all, and all farm businesses must take the responsibility as well for preventing it.

Cabinet Secretary, we all know very well that river pollution is a highly debated topic and the issue that we really do need to get bottom of. The River Wye in my region of South Wales East, as well as Rhymney, in both Hefin David’s constituency and my region, saw multiple raw sewage dumps by Welsh Water in 2023 alone, and whilst Hefin David has sought to draw attention to the UK Government and what they can do to help, we all know that the responsibility for water quality in Wales rests in the hands of the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales, both of which this Labour Government, as we all know too well, has been in charge of since the dawn of time.

So, with this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that raw sewage spills should be more closely monitored and more strict sanctions should be in place for NRW and Welsh Water, so that we finally start to see a decrease in these rates and the improvement of river quality under this Welsh Labour Government for the people of Wales? Thank you.

Two points in response, Natasha, and thank you for the question. One is it needs to be a shared approach to this on the Wye catchment, the same with the Usk and the Severn, and the rivers that respect no borders, they flow from Wales into England, from the Plynlimon hills down through areas in the border countries and then back into our major estuaries. So, it has to be a shared approach, and I'm really delighted, I have to say, that within 48 hours of the UK Government coming into place, the new UK Government, I had that discussion with Steve Reed, the new Secretary. It was one of the items we discussed, the desire to actually work closer and more collaboratively, not only at a ministerial level, but, actually, at an official level as well. There has been some good working, but it hasn't been a full 110 per cent. I want to see that happening, so I'm looking forward to following that up.

We do have a role, of course, specifically to play in Wales, and there are a number of issues. We touched on agricultural diffuse pollution. There are also building and development issues as well, and there are the issues of sewage. Our approach in Wales is very forthright. We want everybody to play their part—everybody who contributes to the pollution. We notice that the price review, PR24, has just come out, the draft determination. There's a significant uplift in that, and we have to guard against the undue impact, particularly on vulnerable customers, of the costs of that. But what it does do is show a step improvement in the scale of investment in tackling combined sewer overflows and sewage discharge. We need every part of this jigsaw to be put together if we're going to clean up those rivers, so everybody can enjoy them in the way that we have traditionally enjoyed them. When we want to bring tourists to Wales and people visit us, as well as local communities, we need those rivers to be sparkling and full of life.

I'd like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, about the water quality regulations, because we know that slurry storage requirements are kicking in on 1 August. Now, some farms, regrettably, won't be ready in time because maybe planning applications for increased slurry storage infrastructure might be stuck in the planning system somewhere. With the wet weather we've had, they've been unable to empty their slurry stores in order to expand them, or, indeed, there may still be outstanding issues between landlords and tenants in some respects. So, I'd like to know what will your advice be to the enforcement agency when it comes to taking a pragmatic and reasonable approach to those who aren't able to meet the new requirements through no fault of their own.

Llyr, it's a really good question, because we know that there are multiple challenges facing farmers at the moment: the planning system and the backlog within that and the stretch that there is within the planning system—something, by the way, I've discussed with my former Cabinet Secretary colleague. And I hope to continue that discussion on how we can work together, even recognising the constraints on resources, to see if we can streamline through that process and work together collaboratively. But there is also the wet weather that we've been having, so even if you get the planning, can you actually get on with it? And then there's the whole regulatory and consenting process.

Now, my advice or my steer is to take a pragmatic case-by-case approach, but we have to do it within the regulatory system that we have. We can't just throw that out; it has to be within that. But my encouragement would be to front-line officials to work with the farming community on a case-by-case basis, because each one will be different, in order to see if there is a way forward. I know there's a desire in the farming community to get ahead with this. We've put a significant amount of money now into assisting the farming community to do this, as well, but there are constraints on the ability to move forward at speed, so I hope what we will see is a pragmatic approach, case by case, but working within the regulatory structure as well.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Just to follow up on some of those issues as well, but just concentrating on the agency here in Wales that we rely on in order to monitor our rivers, and that's NRW, Natural Resources Wales. We know that whistleblowers earlier this week came forward with alarming testimonies, describing NRW as paralysed by bureaucracy and inaction, and then there were internal documents showing that 80 per cent of discharge permits were not being monitored. And then, additionally, research by Y Byd Ar Bedwar also showed that NRW failed to attend more than half of reported pollution incidents between January 2023 and January 2024.

So, this is a real concern around the capacity and the capabilities of NRW, occurring against a backdrop, actually, of us here in Wales paying more for our water, in fact, more than in England. So, could I ask you specifically what response you have to those testimonies, and also what you're doing in order to increase the staffing levels and capacity within NRW? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for the question. I watched the Y Byd ar Bedwar programme and saw the testimonies of people who'd worked within NRW and the honest reflection on what they saw as the constraints on NRW to carry out their statutory and regulatory duties. The first thing I would say is, I would encourage anybody who works in any organisation or any agency to actually raise those concerns and not be fearful of doing it; we need to support the ability, not simply of whistleblowers, as we know them technically, but actually, to raise legitimate concerns. That's the first point to make and I think it's important.

The second thing is we have high expectations of NRW, of all of its staff, from the senior management all the way down, to actually carry out their statutory and regulatory duties. In recent years—and in fact, I featured on that programme, so let me reiterate the points that I very clearly made. NRW, in fact, when I was on the committee under Llyr's stewardship, when we interrogated NRW regularly, we were keen to see them carry out a baseline review of their functions and their remit, which they did. On the back end of that, we invested an additional £18.5 million into NRW, but they've also undertaken a full cost-recovery regime, so that they can make sure that they're not subsidising activities, that they can actually gain the commensurate income on a cost-recovery basis. So, all of those things are in place, but we do expect—our expectation is from Government that NRW carry out their statutory and regulatory functions. They're an arm's-length organisation, but they are our environmental organisation.

And my final point—my apologies, Llywydd, for exercising your patience here—is just to thank the NRW staff throughout the organisation for what they do. Because very often, NRW comes in for criticism after criticism and yet they are passionate, as we saw in that programme, curiously, they are passionate, dedicated individuals who want to improve the country that we live in and the environmental conditions. So, yes, it was a difficult watch. I'm sure NRW are taking those concerns seriously, and when I next meet with NRW themselves, I'll be raising those concerns as well, clearly.

I'm very pleased that the Office of Water Services is finally taking steps to reduce water pollution. We have seen raw sewage released from the Trebanos treatment works due to storm overflow into the Tawe and then into the sea. Water is uniquely vulnerable to pollution. Known as a universal solvent, water can dissolve more substances than any other liquid. It is why water is so easily polluted. Be it sewage or toxic substances from farms, towns or factories, it readily dissolves in water, causing water pollution. What action is being taken to reduce non-sewage river pollution?

Mike, thank you very much. And to draw back to our initial questions on this, I think the river catchment approach that we take, including the river summits, where we pull everybody together and say, 'You all have a responsibility to uplift this, whether you are developers, whether you are members of the agricultural and farming community, or whether you are sewerage and water companies, WASCOs', they all have a role to play. If we only tackle one point source of this pollution, we will not solve the problem, because we want to build affordable homes, but we've got to actually manage the pressures that come with that with phosphate load. We want to actually have a viable farming future, but we've got to manage the nitrate and the phosphate load from that. We also want to see the proper investment from the water and sewerage companies in the network, but this is difficult, because we also have to make sure that we protect the most vulnerable customers. There is, as I mentioned, a draft determination out that will take, probably, six months or more to actually receive representations, including from the consumer bodies, as well, to make sure that those voices are heard. But the truth is, Mike, as you absolutely say, we need to resolve the issues of multiple sources of pollution in all our rivers, not just for the anglers, but for everybody who wants to see the ecological status better and those people who are driving to get bathing water quality within their rivers as well.