Item 5 today is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee report, 'Six Nations Rugby Championship broadcasting rights'. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Delyth Jewell.

Motion NDM8635 Delyth Jewell

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee ‘Six Nations Rugby Championship broadcasting rights’, which was laid in the Table Office on 25 April 2024.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The committee has, for some time now, been investigating public broadcasting in Wales. A key part of this work was our inquiry into the rights to broadcast the six nations championship. The debate over whether the six nations matches should be listed for full broadcast on public broadcasting channels has been going on for some time. In 2009, a review by the UK Government suggested that Welsh games in the championship should be broadcast on public broadcasting channels, acknowledging the importance of the game in Wales. Unfortunately, on several occasions, the Government in Westminster has been reluctant to change the situation. However, the door was left ajar last autumn, when the Government Minister Sir John Whittingdale told the committee:

'We've always said that if the Welsh Parliament argued very strongly that, for the good of sport in Wales, we needed to look again at the listed events, we would look at it, certainly. So, it's not closed.'

As such, we decided, as a committee, to explore the question of whether the six nations should become a group A listed event, by speaking to the Welsh Rugby Union and rugby and broadcasting experts in February 2024. During the course of our evidence gathering, we encountered a number of different challenges, and I will mention those briefly. Dirprwy Lywydd, a perfect storm of market dynamics in broadcasting live sport has seen more and more events go behind a paywall. Public service broadcasters are facing significant budgetary constraints, be this from long-term cuts to the licence fee, or a downturn in the advertising market on broadcast television. Increasing production costs are compounding both these factors.

The advent of global streaming services also means that the value of sports broadcasting rights has increased. For example, in 2021, the BBC and S4C lost the live broadcasting rights to the autumn internationals. And, more recently, the chief executive of World Rugby indicated that future world cup matches may also go behind a paywall.

Yet there is clear demand for rugby internationals to remain on free-to-air channels. Wales is the only UK nation where rugby internationals appear in the top 10 most watched programmes, as was the case in both 2022 and 2021. Despite this demand, there is a financial problem, and this is how the committee has been weighing up these different issues. The funding challenges facing Welsh rugby are well known. The Welsh Rugby Union told us

‘the negative financial implications of moving international rugby matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship to the protected list could have a devastating impact on the whole of the game in Wales in the medium and long term.’

Media rights alone account for £20 million of the union's total revenue of £90 million. The WRU was of the view that retaining tension in the market—that is, for competition to remain between public and on-demand broadcasters—would allow for sufficient income to be generated for the game in Wales.

Now, alongside the funding challenges, we also considered the impact that any changes in broadcasting could have on participation. We were told by the WRU previously that there is a downward trend in the number of people playing rugby, particularly in the men's game. The broadcaster Huw Llywelyn Davies told us, and I quote him,

'I think, that there are fewer people watching rugby on television and that has a detrimental impact on the game in Wales, because there is a link between the number watching on television and the number who play'.

However, Professor Richard Haynes encapsulated this perfectly when he told us:

'If you can't see it, you can't be it.'

We were also told provision of Welsh-language broadcasting was essential. All witnesses were supportive of this, and, on this issue, Seimon Williams, the author and rugby columnist, told us, and again I quote him,

'It has to be accessible and easy to reach, and of good quality.'

So, the simple question facing us as a committee was whether or not the six nations rugby championship should be made a group A event or not. This was not a straightforward question for us to consider, and we weighed up a number of factors, as I said, in our deliberations. I have touched on some of these already today. There is a significant challenge in balancing the competing needs of generating sufficient income to allow rugby to thrive while also maintaining the broadest reach and, in turn, ensuring enough people participate in the sport. That is a tension. Nevertheless, the unique role of rugby in our national life was the deciding factor for us. While Wales has performed strongly in an array of sports in recent years, rugby holds an undeniably special resonance in our cultural life. The committee believes that this special resonance must be protected to ensure that future generations are able to connect with rugby without having to pay for the privilege. Rugby is a game that has been embraced by the working classes of Wales since the end of the nineteenth century, and it has helped to tell Wales's story as a nation on the world stage. It is difficult to calculate how much poorer our culture would be if we were to lose that strong connection with the game.

We welcome the Welsh Government's support for our recommendations. We also welcome the steps it has taken to date in raising the issue with the UK Government. It is unfortunate but understandable that we have not received a response from the UK Government on this issue, in view of the general election being called last week. Despite that, the UK Government has told the Welsh Government that it noted the devolved nature of sports policy. It also noted that it would be open to the Welsh Government to comprehensively evaluate whether there is currently the right balance between those different elements. In this regard, I would ask now the Cabinet Secretary, in her response, to outline how the Welsh Government intends to undertake such an evaluation. I would also like to ask the Cabinet Secretary, given that we now know that there is a new Government in Westminster, how she will raise this matter with the new Secretary of State. The Cabinet Secretary will know that she has the full backing of the Siambr on this matter, so I would encourage strong and proactive approaches on this issue immediately, before the rights for the next tournament are agreed. Thank you.

Thank you to the Chair and committee clerks for bringing forward this debate today. The UK Government has said that a listed event is one that is generally felt to have a special national resonance and which contains an element that serves to unite the nation. For Wales, rugby union is that sport. Through the highs and lows, rugby brings people from across Wales together, and it has done so for generations. Once the game became popular in the nineteenth century, Wales embraced it and made it our own. Unlike in our neighbouring nations, the game in Wales is firmly a working-class sport, bringing together local communities. From 1900, Wales won the Triple Crown six times in 11 years, drawing tens of thousands to watch. Rugby also helped to promote Wales on the international stage, taking on the world's best and winning. Many of us will have recent memories of Grand Slam glory; the years 2005, 2008, 2012 and 2019 going down in the history books. We have those memories thanks to free-to-air television. Throughout that time, we have had many incredible players, immortalised not only for their dedication to the sport but also to Wales. In the words of Ken Owens:

'The history of the jersey stretches back almost 140 years. It’s never your shirt: it’s the nation’s jersey...you have a responsibility to do your best for the nation'.

Players are role models for so many aspiring athletes, and it is so important that young people have the opportunity to watch their heroes play on the television. Rugby is embedded in our culture, and nothing quite compares to hearing 70,000 fans singing the national anthem, 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau', in harmony at the Principality Stadium. Travelling fans take our language and songs with them, and I remember smiling at videos of 'Sosban Fach' and 'Calon Lân' being belted out by fans across France during last year's world cup. People want to learn the songs and language, and viewers across Wales are connected to the game in sharing a united pride, thanks to watching it on tv. The Wales versus France six nations rugby match, broadcast on BBC1 on 11 March 2022, was the most viewed programme in Wales for one year, with an average audience of 652,000, and I would certainly argue that such a high viewing number reflects special national resonance. Six nations matches also provide a huge boost to the cash-strapped hospitality sector, which is still recovering post pandemic. Allowing international rugby to fall behind a paywall would be too much of a burden for all those and far too many to bear.

I do acknowledge the difficult financial situation the WRU finds itself in, and note their concerns about losing tension in the market for tournament broadcasting rights. But there is a real risk here that avoiding action will leave us dropping the ball. We must ensure future generations can connect with the game without having to shell out for the privilege. They are the next generation of players and we would not want to see a drop-off of people taking up the sport due to a paywall, just as we have seen with cricket—as Alun very often mentions. But they're also the next generation of fans, united by a shared love of the game and pride in our nation.

And I am pleased with the committee's recommendations and Welsh Government's support for them. Let's hope, with the new UK Labour Government, we will be in a safe pair of hands and we get protected, free-to-air six nations coverage over the line.

Could I thank the Chair of the committee and the clerks for their work on this report? Although I am now back as a member of the culture committee, I was not a member when this work was undertaken, and so I'm very pleased to see the thorough work you have done, because, after all, this is a subject that inspires the imagination and very strong opinions as well among many of our constituents. And without exception, in my experience in any case, everyone who follows our national rugby teams believes that everyone should be able to follow Wales’s fortunes in the six nations championship free of charge and in their language of choice here in Wales.

Of course, I do understand and recognise, as the Chair did and the committee did, the need for the Welsh Rugby Union to make money. But I also hope that the Welsh Rugby Union understands the importance of the fans in terms of its business model, and also the importance of broadcasting these games in Welsh, and why having a viewing option in Welsh on a platform such as Amazon Prime is not the equivalent of broadcasting on S4C. I know of a number of people who lack confidence in their Welsh language skills or who are learners, or who have no Welsh whatsoever, who always watch the rugby on S4C. And I also know of a number of rugby clubs and pubs throughout the country that show the games live on S4C, thus normalising the use of the Welsh language in the community and hearing the Welsh language as a relevant language—places like Clwb y Bont in Pontypridd, where no-one has a problem watching the game in Welsh. These are the kinds of things that keep the language alive and relevant. And we've seen previously the Football Association of Wales recognising the importance of that in announcing partnerships with S4C. So, we have to see the WRU responding more strongly in terms of that as well. 

You mentioned in your opening remarks, Chair, the fact that the Cabinet Secretary had written to Ministers in Westminster. Obviously, there is hope now, and if she has not already written, I hope that she will write very soon to the new Ministers on this issue. With one of the DCMS Ministers representing a seat in Wales, where rugby is undoubtedly a central part of the community, perhaps there is an opportunity to ask the Government to reconsider this issue. I am also pleased that the committee has noted the importance of these games in terms of the hospitality industry as well. As we know, COVID has been a very challenging period for a number of the clubs and pubs in our local communities, which are often the heart of those communities. So, I am very pleased that you've placed the emphasis on that.

So, why not take today as an opportunity to re-state the Senedd's opinion on this matter and re-state the intention to achieve a solution and commit to working with a new Government in Westminster to make this a reality? It is a subject that many people will want us to voice opinions on, but they will want to see action as well. Carolyn has already mentioned what happened with the cricket, for example. No-one wants to see that happening. And we were discussing with the Cabinet Secretary this morning the importance of sport, the arts and culture in terms of the preventative side, and many people are inspired by seeing sport on television to undertake those sports themselves. For example, we focus on the men in the six nations very often, but seeing the women play as well is very important in terms of people having those role models to want to partake in activities of that kind. So, I do greatly hope that we will be united as a Senedd on this, but now we need action from the Westminster Government.  

Thank you to you as committee Chair, Delyth, for bringing this issue to the Senedd today.

And special thanks, actually, to the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee—the longest committee title, I think, in the history of 25 years of devolution—for what is actually, looking at it, a simple prospect, a simple inquiry: should Welsh rugby six nations games go behind a paywall? But in that simple question there is a complexity of answers, of unknowns and un-understandables that are thrown up by that, especially around the financial element for the WRU.

And it's well rehearsed in terms of those of us who follow rugby and regional rugby in Wales, and I'm sure some speakers who will follow me will talk about this in depth as well, about the financial impact that professional rugby in Wales at the moment is facing, and I do sympathise with that. I do have sympathy with the financial element of it, and how professional rugby in Wales, when the game turned professional in the mid-1990s, chased after high-paying contracts, rather than understanding the infantile nature of the game in terms of professionalisation, and we were chasing the southern hemisphere, New Zealand, who were de facto professional for at least 20 years before the game turned professional itself. I understand that that has come home to roost in terms of the financial aspects of it.

But I still come down to the pure, simple cultural element of the six nations and that game of rugby to us here in Wales, and I remember when we discussed this back in January, I reiterated my favourite line, ‘Shave away, Gavin, shave away,’ from the late, great Eddie Butler, as Gavin Henson kicked that kick. Even back before then in 1999, it was the Rugby World Cup, granted, but I remember the television in school being wheeled in in 1999 to watch the opening ceremony at Ysgol Wdig. I was in school; I was—how old was I in 1999? Younger than most would have been in this Chamber. But I remember that cultural element of Tom Jones and Shirley Bassey at the opening of the world cup in the Millennium Stadium, now the Principality Stadium—there, showing how sponsorship is changing the financial element of the game, with the Millennium Stadium now having a sponsorship right. But those cultural elements stay with us; they stay with us as individuals, especially here in Wales, and I do think that the recommendations within this report are quite clear.

Recommendation 2 leads in quite clearly to the first recommendation, in that the Welsh Government should make representations to the UK Government to try and ensure that this is moved into the top tier. So, Cabinet Secretary, in your response, I'd be grateful to know if you have made that request to the new UK Government, or if you're intending to make that request, and how you intend to go about doing that.

But I'd also like to ask a question, as we're talking about finances, around the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme—and the Minister will know that I've raised this in written questions with the Minister before—around the 8 per cent interest rate that the WRU are currently paying on a CBILS loan, or regions are paying on the CBILS loan to the Welsh Government, where the UK Government, the previous UK Government, fixed it at only 2 per cent for English premiership sides. I think that's a financial constraint that's hurting our professional clubs here in Wales. We see with the Ospreys now looking to relocate back to St Helen’s that the game in Wales is changing; it’s changing because we're not getting the footfall through and we're not getting people supporting our clubs.

One way I think we can secure that is by ensuring that our national game is on free-to-air television. I think that's a really important way of bringing people to be able to see the game, knowing that there are clubs in their communities, being able to go and support those clubs in their communities—not just the professional clubs, but Tenby United Rugby Football Club, who I’ve worked with quite closely to try and get their second 15 into the league to try and get them playing. That's a club that's growing because they're able to watch rugby on terrestrial television. I think that's really important and it's fantastic that in west Wales, in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, we've got a host of second 15 teams from clubs now entering the national league structure, whereas I remember from my 10 years or so of playing senior rugby, the numbers of teams have decreased, and the number of players have decreased, but we've seen a recent uptick, which is really promising.

So, I really do think that there's an opportunity here on the cultural element of the six nations and Welsh games to protect that and understand its importance to us as a nation, and then understanding and recognising and being pragmatic with the financial situation that the WRU see themselves in, in looking at other measures—as I've mentioned, the CBILS loan—in trying to lift some of that burden off the professional game here in Wales, and so that they mutually can be non-exclusive: we can have free-to-air television without the stresses of the financial element as well.

So, I commend the Chair and the members of the committee for what I think is a really good inquiry into this, and I look forward to the Cabinet Secretary's response on this, and I really do hope that we as a Senedd, with one voice, can be united in hoping to ask that our Welsh six nations games do stay on free-to-air television. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

The Member's recollection of the professional game going into the world cup in 1999, and my recollection of going professional was going to rugby league in those days. Hefin David.

A bit of editorial from the Dirprwy Lywydd there. [Laughter.] I remember it was 1998, the England games were actually on Sky, so when Wales played England at Twickenham, that was actually on Sky, and I've got a lot in common with Rishi Sunak, as my dad wouldn't let us have Sky either, and we had to listen to it on the radio. [Laughter.] Now, I'm pretty convinced—. That's all I've got in common with Rishi Sunak. I'm pretty convinced that had the rest of it not been on tv, my interest in the developing world of rugby union probably wouldn't have been as stimulated, so there's certainly that issue that's already been raised. The beauty of the six nations as well, as Carolyn and I were just talking about, is that it takes you from that grim winter into the fresh spring, the whole tournament takes you through, and Cardiff buzzing with it, although, these days, I watch it at Gilfach workies—

—in the heart of my community, opposite my office.

So, it's important to me that communities continue to have access to six nations coverage. Now, I asked for recommendation 3 to be inserted because I was a member of the committee when this was prepared, so my recommendation 3 is effectively a plan B. I'll read you the recommendation:

'In the event that the Six Nations Championship is broadcast on pay-to-view platforms, the UK Government should introduce protections for the hospitality industry including a compulsory contractual clause that allows for reduced pay-to-view subscriptions for pubs and clubs with a rateable value below a specified amount. This should be done following consultation with the hospitality industry to determine the most appropriate approach.'

Now, the reason I raise this is because I've met with Mark, Jan and Eric, who run the Gilfach workmen's club, and they told me that they pay £514 a month for the hospitality subscription to Sky TV, and one of the biggest draws in the workies is the premiership football. So, that is a big draw on evenings when they can play the football. There is a premium price, obviously, for broadcasting it in a club, and they do get a slight reduction, but it's a voluntary reduction. There's no law that says they have to have a reduction based on the size of the club. So, if they were then to add the six nations to a different pay-per-view platform, it wouldn't be covered by Sky, so they'd have to have an additional fee every month just to get it, say, for Amazon, and then if, say, the snooker was to go the same way, the world championship snooker or the darts, which are also very popular, they might have to buy another subscription. Well, Gilfach workies simply can't afford that.

So, I think we need a statutory measure if it does end up going to the group B events and it does end up going pay-per-view; we must have a statutory measure to allow those pubs and clubs in communities like mine to have a very much reduced fee, especially if they were already subscribing to other platforms at the time, so they simply couldn't afford to keep it going. Yes.

Thank you very much, Hefin, for taking that, and I appreciate your recommendation 3. I think it's a really valuable one, and it's a request to the UK Government. Did you in your deliberations within the committee, and forgive me for not knowing, look at other measures that are in Welsh Government's control around mitigating the potential cost that could be there? I'm thinking of business rates.

Well, business rates are an issue that's ongoing, and something that I'm sure the finance Minister who is in the room now will be listening to, but no, we didn't go into detail on Welsh Government measures, we were looking at the six nations from the perspective of the A and B lists, so it was specifically about that. But I do think that if you are going to have alternative venues within communities, the Welsh language included, showing these games, then there has to be the ability for those clubs in communities of lower incomes to be able to provide them, and this is a massive challenge for places like Gilfach workies. So, going to pay-per-view could actually deprive whole communities of the opportunity to watch these and also deprive communities of the communal opportunity to watch these. So, I'd like the Cabinet Secretary specifically to address that and address that with the UK Government, and perhaps there may be levers that the Welsh Government could pull in that regard. Sam Kurtz has suggested that too.

But I think, just to summarise, it was a balanced argument, wasn't it? We are thinking about the deal that the WRU are trying to get. If they go to the BBC, and the BBC and ITV know that they are the only players in town, then it does affect the rate they're able to get from those broadcasters, so there is that consequence as well. I did get the impression from the chief executive and the chair of the WRU at the time that they wanted it to be free-to-view if they could possibly do it, but they wanted to keep that option on the table to take it to pay-per-view in order to get the best possible deal they could, and who can really blame them for that in the current financial climate for Welsh rugby?

I'm grateful to the Chair and to the staff of the committee as well for helping and supporting us with this inquiry. It was, of course, John Whittingdale who suggested we initiate this inquiry. As far as I'm aware, it's the first time that any committee here has initiated an inquiry at the request of a UK Government Minister. I'm glad to see that John Whittingdale survived the great clear-out last week. Perhaps he will also have an opportunity to read this report.

In many ways, the conversation that we've had has been a conversation amongst us as a nation rather than political parties and politicians, because I think all of us have enjoyed different occasions around the six nations. Carolyn reminds us of the 2005 grand slam; I remember it took me four days to get back from Edinburgh after we'd won up in Murrayfield and I nearly missed the Ireland game, but that's an anecdote for another occasion. But all of these occasions—[Interruption.] Not now. All of these histories are about our personal histories, as well, about who we are as a people and who we are as individuals and communities. I'm sure that every single one of us in the Chamber here has got similar anecdotes about the way in which the six nations championship has changed and shaped our memories.

So, it is not simply a game, but a cultural inheritance in all sorts of different ways. I remember Graham Henry speaking of absolute shock when he got to Edinburgh for the Murrayfield game, the first time he'd managed Wales up there, and he said that he couldn't understand why there were all these Welsh people walking down Princes Street. Of course, by the time we got to Murrayfield, we couldn't understand why we were there either. But it was quite a remarkable cultural expression as well, and, of course, having lost to Ireland and to Scotland that year, we went on to win in the Parc des Princes and, of course, beating England in Wembley, as well.

These things are part of who we are. I want my son to enjoy it, and I want the grandchildren of Members here to enjoy it, as well. I think the arguments that Abi Tierney made in her correspondence to us, and then made by the WRU in oral evidence, were powerful arguments. I don't think our love of the game and our love of the experience and our history and our anecdotes and our stories should ever blind us to the real economic issues facing the WRU and the future of the game. And so, it is an argument with which we have to engage; it is something that we have to take seriously. And I think the arguments that Abi Tierney made were very powerful arguments; they were enormously powerful arguments. But I must also say to the WRU that Westgate Street is very different to the west car park, and the experience of Welsh rugby fans is that it is something that we share together as a nation. Simply saying that this will help us make the sums add up, I believe, and I fear, is an inadequate response to some of the challenges facing rugby union today and in the future.

We are at a difficult time in our history. We do look at the local game, the grass-roots game, we look at the regional game, and, in the last week or so, the national game, and we're not seeing success. But the greatest challenge I believe we have is persuading young boys and girls to play the game in the first place. How many games of grass-roots rugby are cancelled because teams cannot raise sufficient players? How many times have we seen, in all our constituencies and areas we represent, games cancelled because there simply aren't enough people to play? And how many times have we seen deserted rugby fields with a game going on that nobody's watching? We need to address the real crisis in Welsh rugby and that is ensuring that the game exists for future generations, and I believe that exposure to the six nations championship is fundamental to that. I have used the example of Glamorgan cricket, and possibly overused it, shall I say, but it does raise fears within me that the more we take the game away from the screens, the more we take it away from our communities and from the people who enjoy watching the game, and the less it becomes our national sport.

So, although the argument made by the WRU is a powerful one, I think we should take up the challenge laid to us by John Whittingdale and make the powerful case to ensure that the six nations championship remains free to view for everyone across Wales and across the world.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the committee, under the Chair of Delyth Jewell, for bringing this debate forward. It's very clear from every Member's contribution that we all agree that rugby in Wales plays a very important role in our sporting, cultural and national identity. The six nations championship in particular resonates deeply with many communities, families and individuals across the country. I don't think there's any other sporting event like it.

First and foremost, the six nations championship is more than just a series of rugby matches; it unites Wales in a celebration of sport, tradition and national pride, and, for many, watching these games is a moment of collective joy and excitement, shared with family and friends. Making the six nations free-to-air ensures that everyone, regardless of their financial situation, can feel part of this shared experience. This inclusivity strengthens community bonds and fosters a sense of belonging. 

From an accessibility standpoint, keeping the championship free-to-air is crucial. Pay-per-view or subscription-based models can be prohibitive, excluding those—usually those poorest in our communities—who cannot afford the additional expense. In many households, especially during challenging economic times, discretionary spending on entertainment is often the first to be cut. 

The provision of coverage in English and Welsh enables audiences to enjoy the tournament in their language of choice. Welsh coverage is a vehicle to highlight the Welsh language, reinforcing its relevance and inspiring both fluent and new speakers to use it more actively.

The broadcast of sporting events, such as the six nations rugby championship, in pubs and clubs also brings much-needed revenue to these establishments, providing a financial lifeline to many sporting clubs in Wales, establishments currently experiencing incredibly difficult times. By keeping the matches free-to-air, we also ensure that rugby remains accessible to all fans, old and new, nurturing a love for the sport across generations. 

Through our programme for government, we are committed to promoting equal access to sport, supporting young and talented athletes and grass-roots clubs and investing in sports facilities. We know from Sport Wales research how our investment in sport delivers a huge social return and impacts positively on the health and well-being of our nation. The six nations inspires children and young people to take up the sport for the first time, and will encourage others to continue to develop their skills to one day emulate the players they will see on their screens. This will help the WRU to deliver against its new, ambitious strategy, which aims to, amongst other targets, develop inspiring competitive clubs and national teams, foster a thriving and sustainable community game and accelerate development of the women's and girls' rugby ecosystem that Heledd Fychan referred to.

Moreover, free-to-air broadcasting can significantly boost the sport's popularity. Wider viewership translates to more fans, more grass-roots participation and, ultimately, a stronger future for rugby. When children and young people see their heroes in action on tv, they are inspired to pick up a rugby ball themselves. This inspiration is crucial for the development of the sport at the community level, feeding into a healthier, more robust pipeline of talent for future national teams. 

If I could just pick up a couple of specific questions, Delyth Jewell was asking about evaluation of sports broadcasting. That's something, obviously, we could undertake. I have not considered it at the current time, but on the back of that question I will certainly ask officials to give me some further advice on that. Sam Kurtz mentioned correspondence we'd had around the loan that the WRU received. Members will be aware that the funding that the Welsh Government gave during COVID was non-refundable—it was grant funding—whilst the UK Conservative Government funding had to be repaid as it was a direct COVID loan. As you know, we are currently assisting in providing funding for them to pay back. I'm not aware of any outstanding correspondence, but if there is, please let me know.

I think both Sam Kurtz and Alun Davies alluded to this as quite a complex issue, and I think it is really important that we do respect the position of the WRU, which cannot make any decisions unilaterally. But, for me, the benefits of maximum exposure and the financial advantages of exclusive broadcasting contracts is a really fine balance, and it is important that the Senedd debates this. I think Alun Davies said very clearly that it's not just a matter for us as politicians, it is a matter for the whole of Wales, and I am very keen to carry on discussions between myself and the WRU, and, obviously, the UK Government as well. Delyth asked about whether I'd written to the UK Government as yet. I haven't; I'm still wading through all the Ministers relevant to my portfolio to see which one is the correct Minister to write to. But, by the end of the week, I will have written to all of the Ministers relevant to my portfolio. It's very important—

Will the Minister take an intervention? So, just to confirm, you will be writing requesting that the Welsh six nations games do stay on free-to-air to the new respective Minister within the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport.

The first thing I'll be requesting is a meeting—I think it's really important to meet to face to face—and then I'll draw the agenda up. If it's not possible to meet in the very near future, I will certainly write specifically on certain topics, and this one would be one of those, because, as you say, it will soon be February, and we need to find out where we currently are.

I do appreciate there might be concerns from the WRU's point of view about potential revenue that's lost from not selling broadcasting rights to the highest bidder, but I think it's really important that everybody considers the wider picture here, and that includes the WRU. Increased viewership can drive higher sponsorship, advertising revenue, and brands seeking to capitalise on the large engaged audience. Additionally, there's a lot of goodwill that can be generated from being accessible to all. I really think that can enhance a sport's brand value and long-term sustainability.

Furthermore, free-to-air broadcasting supports national identity and pride, and rugby, particularly the six nations, is more than just a game; it's a narrative of history, of rivalry and of unity. Allowing unrestricted access to these matches helps maintain and nurture the cultural fabric that binds our communities across Wales together. I think it's a celebration of heritage too, where past and present converge on the playing field, and everyone, I think, deserves a front-row seat to witness it. So, let's look to preserve the spirit of rugby and ensure its thrilling moments can be cherished by all. Diolch. 

I call on Delyth Jewell to respond to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I thank all the Members who took part in this debate, and I should have said at the start of the debate that I thank the committee team for their work on this.

Carolyn, in this debate, firstly outlined the unique cultural significance that rugby has to our psyche. When Carolyn was reliving some of the famous victories, there were whoops from the Chamber—that says it all, doesn't it? I loved the puns, Carolyn—we must not drop the ball; let's get it over the line. Is that a pun? It's a pun, yes. [Interruption.] Llyr just said, 'As long as she doesn't kick it into touch.' Ba-dum tish all round.

Thank you for that, Carolyn. [Interruption.]

No, I'm not going to quote all of these. 

As Heledd said, rugby is a game that fires the imagination. Supporters, of course, are very important to the business of the WRU—I agree with that—and I thank Heledd for emphasising how important live rugby broadcasting is for the Welsh language, to hear the Welsh language as a normal language that is relevant to everyday lives. That's something that you can't put a price on, and I hope that the Westminster Government, as Heledd said, will reconsider the situation as it was previously. 

As Sam set out, this, yes, when you look at it first, does seem like a simple question, but, as Sam has pointed out, it perhaps hides complexities, and we as a committee too had sympathy, certainly, with the WRU's position. Ours was not a glib response in any way to the concerns that were raised. And thank you for quoting the late, great Eddie Butler; his words are always wonderful to hear. There is a need to look pragmatically at how to ease the burdens on the WRU, and we are very alive to that, but, as Sam had pointed out, that shouldn't take away from the cultural significance of this game and that being able to be available for all, for future generations as well.

Hefin, who knew you had so much in common with Rishi Sunak? For anyone who missed the beginning of the debate, I'm not going to give context.

Don't put that on a leaflet. [Laughter.]

I'm just going to leave that there. I'm not going to give context. It was about Sky. I'm not going to do that to Hefin. It was about Sky. It was a joke. But Hefin did indeed push for recommendation 3 in this report, to ensure the protections are there for the hospitality industry as a plan B, and we were united as a committee in support of that. Long live Gilfach workmen's club. Had I mitched off school in lunch hour when I was in sixth form, that would have been my local, but I was obviously far too sensible for that all the time, so I'm happy to put that on the record. But no, long live the working men's club. Now, possibly—.

As Alun was saying—

—possibly this is the first time that a Senedd committee inquiry has been sparked by a UK Government Minister's suggestion. The anecdotes that so many Members have shared or, tantalisingly in the case of Alun, the anecdote that was not shared, of the missing four days in Scotland, which I think we all want to hear at some point—but those anecdotes, they do shape our memories. And I agree with Alun that rugby is not simply a game, but a cultural inheritance.

Now, the WRU's arguments were powerful, as Alun and others have pointed out. There are real economic issues facing the game. We have to engage with them, and the way to help that through, surely, as Alun points out, is encouraging young girls, young boys to get involved in the game. And, again, I go back to the words of one of our witnesses to the inquiry: you can't be something that you can't see.

Diolch to the Cabinet Secretary for your response to the debate. It is those shared experiences that are at risk of being lost. And, yes, Welsh coverage does inspire new speakers.

It's priceless for Welsh.

And when it comes to evaluating sport broadcasting, I was glad to hear that you'll be seeking further advice on that, and I think it's also welcome that you'll be writing to the new Secretary of State. Obviously, I’d implore you to do that with urgency.

Now, this is indeed a matter not just for politicians, as the Cabinet Secretary said, but for the people of Wales in a celebration of our heritage.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's only a matter of months since the Siambr spoke with one voice in calling for the six nations championship to remain free-to-view. It is clear from the contributions made today that this view remains. As I mentioned earlier, rugby has a very special place in the conscience or the psyche of the Welsh people. We have all experienced the unique atmosphere to be enjoyed on a six nations weekend in Wales on Westgate Street or wherever, that passionate hope that this year will be our year, the elation that comes in the wake of victory and the shared grief of defeat. The opportunity to say,

‘I was there’.

Rugby is more than a game. It is part of our heritage as a nation, and it's our duty, therefore, to ensure that the next generation can enjoy the same experiences. Ensuring that the six nations championship continues to be broadcast publicly is key to that. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.