Item 4 is a motion to note the annual report on the Senedd Commission's official languages scheme for 2023-24. I call on Adam Price to move the motion.

Motion NDM8633 Elin Jones

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Annual Report on the Senedd Commission's Official Languages Scheme for the period 2023-24, in accordance with paragraph 8(8) of Schedule 2 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, laid before the Senedd on 19 June 2024.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m pleased to present the Senedd Commission's annual report on its official languages scheme for 2023-24 before the Senedd today. Members of the Senedd will be aware that the Senedd Commission is required, in accordance with the National Assembly for Wales (Official Languages) Act 2012, to submit an annual report on its work.

This year, the official languages team has undertaken a survey of Welsh language skills across the staff of the Senedd Commission. The results of this year's survey are positive and an indication that the decision to introduce a linguistic courtesy system in the fifth Senedd has created solid foundations, and, as I state in my foreword to the report, they show the potential that the institution has to continue to aim even higher for the future. The team has also started analysing the results of the survey, together with the language plans of the individual services. This will allow us to monitor bilingual capacity across the institution and offer assurance that we are capable of providing first-class bilingual services. 

Last year, I undertook to consider the support available to Senedd Members to enable them to use Welsh in proceedings. It's important that we support Members, whether they be new Welsh speakers or fluent Welsh speakers, to be confident in using their skills regularly, and that the conditions and support are also in place for the staff who support them in preparing for Senedd business. However, the data in this report show a similar pattern to last year in terms of Welsh contributions and in terms of its use in writing within our parliamentary administration. My priority, therefore, is to put steps in place to try to restore performance to previous levels in the first instance, which will hopefully result in more use of the Welsh language orally and in writing in committees and in Plenary meetings, and when introducing business.

I am proud to report to the Senedd that we have begun to tackle this in earnest, and I would like to thank the members of the chairs’ forum for the support received for the initial steps at a meeting on Monday. This coming Monday, I will be discussing a paper with my fellow Commissioners on this and other matters relating to the Welsh language with regard to our work in the short, medium and long term when looking towards the seventh Senedd.

Senedd reform offers us an exciting opportunity to look back at what has been achieved since the passing of the official languages Act, and to look towards the future, challenging ourselves to ask what more needs to be achieved and what our ambition is during the next chapter. It will be an opportunity to ensure that our ways of working, our ethos, and our legal framework guarantee that the use and status of the Welsh language as an equal language is central and prominent in the work of the Senedd, and that we're accountable to all of the citizens of Wales for the role that we are playing in the national cross-party effort to plan a future for the language.

Before closing, I would like to draw Members' attention to a few successes that provide further proof of our ethos and culture as an inclusive institution. The report includes a few comments from individuals who have taken advantage of the learning Welsh provision available to Members, support staff and Commission staff. On this point, maybe I should declare an interest given that my brother Adrian is a member of the tutoring team.

It's a pleasure to hear about the way that the lessons have brought people together and created a sense of belonging while we are still trying to understand our new ways of working, which often include more remote working. Hearing conversations in Welsh is an integral part of the working day, with those who receive lessons eager to use their skills and provide first-class bilingual services. Many thanks, therefore, to all the staff of the Commission for their efforts and dedication.

Finally, I would like to thank you, Senedd Members, for your support and willingness to engage with us to discuss and improve. We will continue to listen to your views and comments in order to ensure that we maintain the highest possible standards and continually look for ways to improve. I look forward very much to the questions that you have. Thank you.

May I thank the Member for moving this motion this afternoon and for the points that he has made? I only have a few points to make this afternoon. I'll start by saying that we as Welsh Conservatives understand the importance of the Welsh language, and also the importance that we as a Senedd have as an exemplar for people across Wales in terms of what you can do through the medium of Welsh and using Welsh day to day. In terms of Welsh language levels, I think the main thing for me was confidence. I know the words, but I don’t always have the confidence to speak Welsh. I think the Dirprwy Lywydd might be in a similar position to me in terms of the language. The most important thing I can say over the three years that I’ve been here is that I’ve developed the confidence to use the Welsh language more and more, and I think the Senedd is responsible for that, so I’m very grateful to the staff and everyone else who has assisted in doing that.

In reading the report, there were a few points that I wanted to pick up on. I welcome the fact that, in terms of the survey you mentioned, we've seen an increase in the number of people at levels 1 to 3. Now, that is something that's to be welcomed. And you say in your report too—and I only have the English version in front of me, so there's a slight irony there, but you do say:

'This indicates that the decision to introduce Courtesy-level Welsh in the last Senedd has provided a solid baseline on which to build'.

So, could I ask you what exactly you will do next? You've delivered the courtesy level, you've got those initial skills in place, but what are the next steps and how will you build on that?

Another thing that you've seen is some flatlining in terms of levels 4 and 5 in terms of those who can speak Welsh. So, there's perhaps more to be done there. So, what do you see as the challenge in that regard for the future in order to get those numbers up too?

You also mentioned the next Senedd. We know that there will be more Members—we'll be up to 96—and that means that we will have to do things completely differently next time. There are a few points here: this is going to put pressure on our staff because there will be more people wanting to use the Welsh language, so that will place more pressure on the services available, and that's hugely important. So, what assessment have you made of that? And what does the Senedd need to do in the future so that they can cope with that and ensure that the service is still in place—the service that we've used to date?

Also, I wanted to say that when you come to the Senedd for the first time following your election, it's something of a whirlwind—there's a great deal happening all at once. You have to set up your IT, you have to sort out your staff and jobs and so on and so forth. So, how do we ensure that newly elected Members know what's available in terms of the lessons and so on and how they can use the Welsh language, and that that isn't lost in some welcome pack and that people only discover it a year or two years into their term?

The final point that I wanted to make: there was a nice line in your foreword—a good question—and I wanted to throw that question back at you. You say:

'I want us to challenge each other and ask: what more needs to be done to ensure that we can engage fully and without hindrance in the business and work of the Senedd in Welsh, as is currently possible in English? How can we ensure that Welsh is truly equal to English in our proceedings and in the administration of the Senedd? And most importantly, how are we accountable to the people we serve—the citizens of Wales—for our performance and play our part in the national, cross-party effort to plan the future of the Welsh language?'

So, I'll throw that one back at you: as the Commissioner responsible for official languages, what's your assessment of the answer to that question that you yourself posed in your report? Thank you.

You had only just started in this role a year ago when we asked you some questions. And obviously, there was a discussion at that time around the disappointment around some of the barriers that we face in terms of the use of the Welsh language.

There are great things to celebrate here and I think that we have to note that, and it's great to hear Tom acknowledging that. And I also know, having been in committees where I'm often perhaps the most confident Welsh Speaker there, it's great to see other Members, such as Hefin David here clearly using the Welsh language when he is able to, but also supportive in that regard. But it's often that there's only one confident Welsh speaker in a committee and that then has an impact on what kind of language the committee does use. So, I was pleased to hear you talk about the Chairs' forum.

One of the things that does concern me often is how we support the staff who support us within the Commission to feel confident to draft reports in Welsh, and how, then, do we use technology to enable other Members to understand that report? There's always this idea that everything has to be in English first, and then, when it comes to the final report, there will be a Welsh version. Well, it's very important, I think, that we do empower those who want to work through the medium of Welsh to be able to draft through the medium of Welsh. And we're very lucky now, and I'm not talking about Google Translate—there are many other different ways to empower staff to feel that they can draft through the medium of Welsh. So, that’s one of the elements I’d like some clarity on, if I may.

One thing that would be beneficial, I think, is understanding the current barriers Members feel, and I was going to ask whether you had considered undertaking a survey of the elected Members to understand their use of the Welsh language. Certainly, after seeing last year’s report, I’ve tried my level best to introduce everything in my name through the medium of Welsh—not always, sometimes there’s an urgent issue that needs to be submitted and staff members need to do that on my behalf. But, certainly, we as a group—. The Majority of our motions and amendments are tabled in Welsh, and that does stem from the fact that this report showed clearly last year how deficient some of our processes were, and maybe there was a certain amount of laziness and that we do need a kick to remind us to do that.

I think that there's a challenge too—there are many organisations who contact us as Senedd Members asking us to table questions on a variety of subjects. I would say that there’s a challenge for them to provide those questions bilingually, and that it’s not just up to us—if they want to engage with the Senedd, they need to consider that there are two official languages, and that both languages are used.

So, as I mentioned, there are encouraging elements in this report. But in terms of committee proceedings, Plenary proceedings and the Table Office, evidently we can’t force anybody to table their materials in Welsh, but it might not be a bad thing to understand why those barriers exist.

I mentioned committees earlier—and I have spoken to a number of Members about this—and it is difficult if you’re the only person who uses Welsh at times, and there is an important role that the Chairs can play in terms of reminding witnesses when they come in that they are welcome to answer the questions in Welsh. And maybe it’s a good thing that we have this annual report to provide that boost, so that we can all hear that. But, evidently, not everyone is in the Chamber today. So, if you could focus on how we disseminate that message to all staff members, and to all elected Members, and get their input, so that we have a Senedd where both languages are equal. We are trying our best, but I think there is more that we can do, and the solutions are within the way that we work at present, certainly.

I’m delighted to speak on this issue, or to try to do so at least. I’d like to say 'thank you very much' to my Welsh language tutor, Jordan. He is an excellent and enthusiastic tutor and he’s helped me a great deal with my Welsh language skills. I usually have Welsh lessons in the Senedd online every Friday. Last summer Jordan arranged additional lessons for me, and last month I took my first Welsh language examination, and this summer, I have a workbook that I’ll be using.

I’m learning Welsh because I’d like to use more Welsh, both in the Chamber and in the community too. When I was in school in Flint, I studied Welsh but never took examinations. I restarted learning when I was living in London. My father’s family are from the Ffynnongroyw area, which is currently in my Constituency. My grandfather was a first-language Welsh Speaker, but my grandmother was from Liverpool. Unfortunately, they didn’t speak Welsh to each other, and my father never learnt Welsh. As a result, had my father been a Welsh speaker, then he wouldn’t have met my mother at Holywell Grammar School. [Laughter.]

So, I’m delighted to be learning Welsh, and I try to use as much Welsh as I can when possible. I support the Welsh Government’s programme of having a million Welsh speakers by 2050, and the official languages scheme also supports that. Thank you.

Thank you very much, and I, I’m sure on behalf of everyone in this Chamber, congratulate Hannah on the progress that she’s made with the Welsh language in a very short period of time. So, huge congratulations to you.

I'd like to congratulate the Commissioner for putting a clear focus and emphasis on the Welsh language at the beginning of the report. But I do have some concerns about how the Welsh language is being promoted and used in this institution. The report mentions cases where it was not possible for individuals to use their language of choice, where correspondence was not sent bilingually. I would venture that the report is referring to the Welsh language in that sense, and not the English language. But 'language of choice' is the term used, and that's different to all comparable institutions and other democratic bodies in Wales. This Senedd operates under a legal framework that places an emphasis on promoting the language of choice, rather than promoting the Welsh language. But everything that we know about linguistic planning in Wales, and indeed Wales’s national language policy, emphasises the promotion of the Welsh language.

Unfortunately, the current framework, which leads to the promotion of the language of choice rather than the Welsh language, is undermining those efforts and is a very odd thing to be doing, in truth. So, I would like to get your response to that. Is it time for us to start thinking about changing that, and that the Senedd joins the same policy and legal framework as every other public body? That is in order to see the Welsh language growing in this institution. Because we have seen a reduction. Heledd Fychan has mentioned the reduction in the number of written questions submitted in Welsh, which has fallen from 4 per cent to 3 per cent, and then to 1 per cent this year. Oral and topical questions also show the same pattern, and there has been a further decline in the use of Welsh in Plenary meetings.

Some specific points arising from the report: we would question whether the figure of 34 documents prepared internally by committees in English only is correct. I think it would be much higher, because draft reports by committees, which are numerous, are usually still prepared in English only, and are then translated at the final stage, namely just before publication. 

In terms of the standards commissioner, I can say from experience that I and staff members whom I know about have had to engage with the commissioner verbally in English. Under the current legal framework, I don't think that there is a right to use the Welsh language. We need to look at the capacity of the office of the standards commissioner to be able to work in Welsh without having to rely on translation, and whether it might be necessary to add to that capacity. Discussing sensitive issues is so much more effective if you do so in your mother tongue directly with a staff member rather than through a translator. 

Finally, we also need to look at the intranet. I know that there is a problem with the staff and Members' directory in terms of the quality and accuracy of that information. I'd like the Commission to ensure that that information about the language skills of Members and their staff is correct and is reviewed regularly. Thank you.

I call on Adam Price to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm very grateful to all Members who have contributed to this debate. As one Rhydaman boy to another, I would say, Tom, that your Welsh is excellent. It's something that I have to tell myself as I look in the mirror. It's very important that we develop confidence amongst each other, and in all the linguistic diversity of Wales. There are different dialects and different ways of speaking Welsh, and they must all be reflected here. That's an important part of the message.

I think, in terms of the points that you make on induction, the Welsh language should be a central part of that induction process, so we will certainly look at that as we prepare for Senedd reform. In terms of language skills, one of the things that I'd be eager to look at is to take the kind of approach that we took with Commission staff, and to look at gathering that data, with the agreement of everyone, looking then at Members and Members' staff too, so we can have a comprehensive picture across the whole Senedd. So, that is one way in which we can build on the good experience that we've had in terms of courtesy level Welsh and so on, by extending that, and the skills survey and that work, across all of our parliamentary staff, as it were, including Members. 

And then, in terms of building on the experience, well, Tom, you almost answered your own question. Now, we have laid foundations, but we now need to look at building on those foundations at every level, in terms of how we can create domains where there is more internal communication and administration through the medium of Welsh, for example. Because that is a practical approach in assisting people to improve their language skills even more. Many congratulations to Hannah on her success in her exams. And it's fantastic to see more and more Members using the Welsh language in the different fora that we have. 

Yes, we will be looking specifically, as I said—. There is now a range of ideas that we have in terms of how we can increase the use of the Welsh language in committees. And we will be trialling those and looking at progress over a period of six months. I think—. I will write to the different Members, particularly Siân. You asked a number of detailed questions, and I won't have the answers in front of me now. But just a few more general comments I'd like to make. I do think that, as a Senedd, now is the time for us to look at the framework in general. Siân's point as to whether we treat both languages equally, rather than promoting Welsh—. Now, we don't have a problem in the Senedd in relation to the English language. But we do have Welsh tutors, so, in a way, aren't we already promoting? But the legal framework that we have doesn't take us along that particular path. So, we need to look at that. 

And we also need to look at parts of parliamentary life that are outwith even our own framework at the moment, in terms of the standards commissioner, the remuneration board, subordinate legislation that comes in English only, as is noted in the report. So, we do have to look at a framework that encapsulates everything, so that all aspects of parliamentary life treats the Welsh language equally and provides opportunities for us all to use the Welsh language. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.