Item 5 is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the Welsh food system—producing food sustainably.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I'm very pleased to set out for Senedd Members how this Welsh Government is driving a more sustainable food and drink sector in the face of the climate emergency. And as we know, climate change is not just a distant future threat that we can ignore for now; it is a present reality for households and for businesses right across Wales today. Indeed, already, over the last five years, Wales has experienced several extreme weather events. We're seeing extreme heat, heavy rainfall, windstorms, droughts, extreme cold and snow. A recent report commissioned by the WWF estimates that climate change costs the agricultural sector in Wales tens of millions each year, with an estimated £175 million loss in 2018 alone.

Globally, droughts and heatwaves have detrimentally impacted the supply chains of cocoa, olive oil, rice, soy beans, leading to reduced availability and substantial price increases in the UK, putting pressure on food business costs and ultimately on consumer prices.

So, in the face of these challenges, there is a growing trend, as well, of ethical consumption. More than ever, the public expect suppliers to embrace sustainable production practices. Indeed, market insights reveal that one in three consumers in the UK have stopped purchasing certain brands due to ethical or sustainability related concerns. So, more and more, we're seeing that people want to spend the pound in their pockets in ways that also benefit the planet.

Now, as we all know across the Chamber, a sustainable future for farming is key to the sustainable future of food and drink in Wales. The sustainable farming scheme is crucial to delivering this, and has been the topic of a separate oral statement just a few weeks ago. The Welsh food and drink industry, as part of food production post the farm gate, must also respond to these sustainability demands, as we've set out in our vision for the food and drink industry.

As part of our net-zero commitment, we are supporting businesses to reduce their carbon footprint through process efficiency, resource use and waste reduction. So, in this context today, I will focus on updating you all on the support we've put in place for Welsh food and drink manufacturers to decarbonise, to improve the delivery of positive environmental and social impacts, and to respond to the climate impacts on food production. Now, while policy developments at national and international levels will set a direction of travel, the market itself will also drive the industry towards a more nature-positive future. 

To support businesses to develop the skills they need to progress on the sustainability agenda, we have established fully funded training programmes on sustainability, decarbonisation and adaptation, tailored especially to the food and drink industry. These include practical toolkits and online self-assessment tools designed to support businesses to identify their strengths, areas for improvement, and potential vulnerabilities related to climate change. The guidance covers key areas for improved sustainability such as energy management, water efficiency and reducing waste, as well as societal concerns for providing fair work. Support also helps businesses to develop risk-management techniques for potential disruptions to electricity, water supply and distribution, as well as climate-related incidents such as flooding. Now, this all helps businesses reach bespoke sustainability strategies, empowering them to build resilience and to thrive in an increasingly unpredictable climate landscape.

There’s also further support for businesses to strengthen their sustainability practices through the sustainability cluster, which now includes over 100 member businesses. The sustainability cluster actively promotes the sustainability agenda at major food events, like the Royal Welsh Show, offering businesses and their supply chains invaluable opportunities to engage and to learn. I'm looking forward to visiting the stand myself later next month.

On 3 July, I will address the Food and Drink Wales sustainability conference, Preparing Wales for the Future, which we are holding in collaboration with the food and drink supply chains, and driven by the sustainability cluster. The event will draw together food and drink businesses with key industry experts and stakeholders. Together, we’ll demonstrate the commercial imperative for businesses to react to the public demand for food and drink that are produced responsibly, both socially and environmentally.

At the event, industry will learn about the opportunity to take part in the carbon reduction plan pilot programme, designed to support businesses to understand their carbon emissions and to develop actionable plans to reduce them. Some 80 businesses have already expressed an interest in participating, and we encourage more to join.

And there'll be two further opportunities later this year. So, in September, businesses that have completed our training courses can attend the sustainability and decarbonisation cohort event at Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre Cymru to network, to engage with experts, and to consult with trainers on their sustainability progress. In October, businesses at the Blas Cymru/Taste Wales conference in north Wales can visit the food and drink sustainability zone and join with key representatives from businesses, academia and industry in a round-table discussion to evaluate current support and to suggest further measures for progress. But our work doesn't end there.

We're currently identifying cross-Government requirements and gaps to address the impacts of climate change on the food system in Wales. This work will be integrated into the Welsh Government’s climate adaptation policy for Wales. As part of this initiative, we are developing comprehensive supply chain integrity guides that are specifically designed to support independent retailers and food and drink businesses in preparing for climate resilience.

We know how strong the potential shocks of climate change can be, and so we are helping businesses to collaborate with food innovation centres. This means, for example, that they can reformulate recipes, substituting ingredients that may become unsustainable, less available, or even more expensive in the future because of anticipated global crop yield fluctuations. Through this, we aim to ensure that our food and drink sector remains resilient and adaptable in the face of an increasingly uncertain climate future. And the message is, Dirprwy Lywydd, that, together, we can build a better, more secure future for food and drink in Wales in the face of the climate emergency.

Following the recommendations of the Climate Change Committee, we're exploring mandating climate risk reporting for large food and feed businesses. And in order to meet our net-zero Wales carbon budget 2, we are developing a comprehensive decarbonisation plan for the industry to achieve our ambitious sustainability goals. All this depends on our ability to adapt, to innovate and to work together. By embracing sustainability, we can offer the products the public want to see and ensure the future of our food and drink industry, both the businesses and the supply chains. This Welsh Government will always be ambitious in our vision of growing a sustainable, secure food and drink industry that’s fit for now and for the future as well. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. How to deliver healthy, nutritious food for all in the face of shrinking resources, a growing population and, of course, global uncertainties is a major challenge across the globe, especially here in Wales. It is one that the Welsh Conservatives very recently, especially Peter Fox and myself, have risen to, and we've offered legislative solutions. Increasing food security and tackling food poverty and malnutrition were key aims of the Food (Wales) Bill. I get really sad when Members bring these legislative proposals forward: Sam Rowlands recently, with outdoor education, Paul Davies, when he brought forward autism and additional learning needs—some really good Laws that, if implemented now, we wouldn't be having the issues we are.

Peter's Food (Wales) Bill had fantastic requirements, including: placing a duty on Welsh Ministers to produce an annual food strategy for Wales to tackle food poverty and malnutrition; to ensure the sustainable growth of the food sector and that sustainable local food producers have access to adequate support and incentives—who could disagree with that; requiring local authorities and other public services to develop community food plans; to strengthen public procurement—who could disagree with that; to strengthen statutory requirements on food labelling, such as the country of origin and labelling for food consumed at home and food consumed in food services, hospitality settings, hospital settings, school settings—who could disagree with that; eliminating food waste by obliging supermarkets and other stores to donate unwanted food to charities and foodbanks—who could disagree with that?

So, Cabinet Secretary, given that we do get sensible legislative proposals coming forward, will you reconsider the Opposition to the measures proposed, and perhaps we can look at this on a more cross-party basis? In April, I brought forward a legislative proposal before the Welsh Parliament that would create a duty for the Welsh Government to set targets to improve food security in Wales. I'm grateful for the 24 votes in favour, but I see no intention by Welsh Government to actually bring this in. So, will you, again, look at that, look at what we've offered up? And, even if you bring a Bill forward, if it contains a lot of the proposals that we put in, does it really matter whose name is on the tin?

Could I, at this point, congratulate our suppliers in the Members' tea room and restaurant, Rob, the manager, and the team of staff there, working with the Soil Association, and our team here in the Commission's sustainability department? They have had an award, and that's fantastic—that Members and visitors now here, in this Senedd, can eat sustainable food.

More recent figures published by the Welsh Government show that the value of food and drink imports into Wales for 2022 was £797 million. The most recent data drawn from HMRC UK trade information shows that the value of food and drink imported into Wales for 2023 was £803 million. The over-reliance on imports is clear, and it means that we, as a nation, are now vulnerable to global instability. For example, instability in Ukrainian agricultural markets is manifesting in food price fluctuations.

We are also currently importing, with a large carbon footprint, soya beans, with poultry now being fed on imported soya beans, rather than grain, which has been the staple ingredient needed—locally grown grain—since world war two. I know this because my parents and grandparents were poultry farmers. They didn't know then what a soya bean was, and it was all grain. Look at the sustainable farming scheme that came out of the Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru co-operation deal: it was completely opposed by farmers. Farmers know what they are doing, and we are fools if we don't listen to them more.

The other thing that I want to say, Minister, is that I want to see locally caught seafood and fresh fish introduced as an inherent food staple for children in schools. We know how nutritious seafood and fish are for children, so why are we not putting them into our hospitals, and why are we not putting them into the diets of our children? We need to be encouraging more allotments. So many people now are fed up with threats to our food. They want to grow their own fruit and veg.

The sustainable farming scheme, with the 10 per cent of land for trees and 10 per cent of land for nature, as you know, has been rejected—

Janet, you need to start concluding now, please.

Yes, I know, I know. Do you know, I could talk about this longer—

I'm sure that you could, but you haven't got the time.

—but I'm sure that I will meet with the Cabinet Secretary. We need to work together, I think, cross-party. There are serious threats to our global food security. It's not just about choice any more. I want to work with you on this, Minister, going forward. Diolch.

Janet, thank you very much, and can I just start where you have ended? My approach is to work with people where they've got good ideas, and to try and take these forward. I, like others, will pay tribute to Peter's work, which you flagged up there, in bringing forward the legislation. But I simply say that it's not always the case—. I always describe myself as the reluctant legislator. It's not always the case that Laws are needed to make things happen, or strategies, or big papers that land on shelves. It's actually getting on with the actions that we need to deliver food security, resilience, sustainability and so on.

So, let me just touch on a few, because I'm happy to work with you and with others on the best ways forward. So, first of all, as a result, actually—. It's not accidental that, on the back of the debates that happened around food policy around the time of Peter's Bill coming forward, the food policy forum was established, back in 2023. That focus now, cross-Government and with stakeholders, on food policy continues.

We are looking forward to bringing forward 'Food Matters' very shortly, which I know Members of the Senedd will be anticipating, and also bringing forward, hopefully, by the end of this year—. It's part of the programme for government commitments to bring forward the community food strategy, and I'm casting my eyes, eight or nine weeks into this job, over exactly what that community food strategy will entail and what it won't, as well. So, it's not some magic ring that binds absolutely everything together, but I think that the 'Food Matters' policy will bring together all those actions that we are delivering across Government and across policy. The community food strategy, I think, will add something significant to it.

You mentioned Rob and the catering team here. I was delighted to join them, actually. They have just had the bronze award for sustainability. The bronze award doesn't sound like much, but it's a huge step, and I'm sure that Rob and the team will be looking to do more. But the fact that they are looking to source as much as they can locally, fresh, within Wales, and also looking at those wider environmental impacts that I touched on in my opening remarks, so they're not denuding, whether it's rainforests in a far part of the world or it's increasing soya production, and so on, is very important.

Food resilience, of course, is part of food security, and that's very much part of my opening remarks—what we can do with food producers, farmers but also food producers in the supply chain, to build that resilience into them. It's alternative product design as well, as they face perhaps disruption to their supply chains going forward. I think this is good, proactive forward thinking of us, working with stakeholders to make that happen.

Seafood is actually a really good example of some of the challenges ahead. Believe me, this isn't a political point, but I'm looking across the Chamber here at you and other Members who represent north Wales constituencies where seafood and shellfishery have been, in some ways, very much a success story of recent years, but they've hit impediments now with trade barriers about exports and so on and the burdens that have come. We need to look at that going forward, I would suggest with a UK Government listening to the voice of Wales as well. But it's also a good example of, if we can create that market domestically—and that is the question—with the right price for that product as well, because what they were getting was a premium for their exports, then that's a good thing to do. 

There are many other issues you touched on, Janet, but I'm keen to work with you and with others on the best way forward for sustainable food within Wales. What I am adamant on is that, whenever I speak to producers, they tell me the hallmark of success of Welsh production is our environmental and sustainability standards. In fact, the way we go forward is building in that resilience for the future, when we are faced with climate challenges of the sort I've described. Thank you very much.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I don't think there's anything in it that I disagree with. I was counting as you were listing the initiatives. There were around nine different activities that are currently ongoing, and then you slipped in another two towards the end that maybe are ones that are ambitions of yours. One is mandating climate risk reporting to large food and feed businesses. In principle, I've no issue at all with that, but clearly there are questions about how that might work in practice and avoiding a bureaucratic tick-box exercise. But I'm sure you'll be committed to working with the sector to develop that. Likewise then, developing a comprehensive decarbonisation plan for the industry. Again, that's something I think in principle is absolutely right, it's just the nuts and bolts of how that can be made to work.

In fact, I did feel the statement, as much as I was in agreement with much of it, felt a little bit discombobulated. It was a list of individual activities happening. I was hoping, having seen the title of this statement today, that we were building up towards a comprehensive, cohesive, co-ordinated farm-to-fork food strategy here in Wales. It just felt a little bit of a scatter gun, really, in terms of listing different initiatives. But maybe the decarbonisation plan can maybe bring some of those threads together.

I'm sure you'll agree that the biggest boost for the sustainability of the food and drink sector in Wales would be to procure more locally produced food—adding value, creating jobs, cutting food miles, putting healthier, higher quality food on all our plates. So, maybe you could tell me what the Welsh Government is doing particularly around public procurement of local food and your plans in terms of growth in that area, and, hand in hand with that, of course, what you're doing to promote local processing and increase local processing capacity. I raised with you last week concerns about Mona Dairy, of course, exactly the kind of initiative we want to see succeeding in Wales. Unfortunately, they haven't. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, it undermines the confidence of primary producers to back these kinds of initiatives. So, maybe you could elaborate a little bit about how we can make sure that we continue to see growth in that potential.

You touched on Brexit and Tory trade deals that, frankly, are undermining much of our food and drink producers at the moment. Do you therefore agree with Plaid Cymru's calls for Wales to have a veto on future trade deals if we believe that they are detrimental to the food and drink sector here in Wales? And would you agree with Plaid Cymru again that we would be better off as part of a single market and customs union?

A fair and well-functioning supply chain is critical. We don't have that at the minute, so, again, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about the need to strengthen the powers of the groceries adjudicator to tackle unfair practices. And would you, as Cabinet Secretary, be willing to lobby any incoming UK Government on this, to help improve transparency within our supply chains? Similarly, labour shortages are a barrier for much of the food and drink sector in Wales and beyond. We desperately need to ensure that the shortage occupation list is amended in a way that supports our producers here in Wales. I hope very much that you'd be willing to commit to that as well. Diolch.

Diolch, Llyr. There were some really helpful and interesting points there. Just first of all to say that, on the exploring of the mandating of climate risk reporting for the large food and feed businesses—one of the recommendations of the climate change committee—and also developing a comprehensive decarbonisation plan for the industry, we will, of course, work through the detail of this with stakeholders. We want to get this right. It's a hallmark of the approach that I take. We want to get these policies right for everybody and move forward together. But that could be quite a breakthrough, if we get to that point, because having climate risk reporting there for the larger businesses, having that really bold decarbonisation plan, takes us where we need to be going, not just on carbon budget 2, but also we're soon going to be starting work on carbon budget 3 as well, and I know your committee will be keeping a close eye on this. So, it's that sort of innovation, but bringing people with us, that I think is really important.

On more locally produced food—I said this two months and a bit ago now, I think it is; I've lost track now—I've started to look in detail now at the community food strategy going forward. That's an element I'm hopeful of, and I'm keen to see how much we can do within that, taking where we are already, some of the work that we've done already, but seeing what more can be done. We're in the middle of a General Election, if anybody hasn't noticed. There are some offers being put forward in different manifestos at the moment about what more we can do. I've always been taken, as a Welsh Italian—I'm not saying that this is the way forward—by the idea that you can specify within procurement the local and the fresh, as they do in Italy, indeed, and as they do in parts of France. Curiously, by the way, as I've mentioned before, they do that within the current EU rules, but who knew? So, I think there is something to be looked at there, and I'm hopeful that the community food strategy, which I'm taking a bit of time now to get my teeth into, is going to help us with that. 

On the issue of the voice for Wales in future trade deals, we've had no voice, Llyr.

We have no voice in the trade deals.

Nothing at all. It would be good to have some voice. Regardless of who is sitting in those top seats at a UK level going forward, particularly in food, not just our primary producers, but in the wider food supply chain, we need to have that voice. I'm not saying veto, I'm saying a voice. It's the sort of voice that we used to have, curiously, before we went through Brexit. We now need to reinvent that and not be locked out of those discussions. That is really grown-up, serious politics. One of the greatest assets for UK trade and industry, as they are for Wales, are some of our producers in Wales, like Halen Môn, which I visited two or three weeks ago, I think for the third time. I saw them when they were tiny, when it was literally a Heath Robinson contraption that they were using, bringing it through the Crown Estate and so on. Now it's bold, and their reputation worldwide is great, but, actually, being able to speak up for them, and for our farmers, and everybody else, I think is important. Surely that's a benefit to the UK, to hear our voice, and Scotland's voice, and so on.

On the Groceries Code Adjudicator, there are some interesting options that are being put forward in various manifestos at the moment. I was there when the GCA was originally brought into legislation. There were debates at that time whether it should be given more teeth, whether it could extend further down the supply chain and so on. I'm not of a settled position on this, but if we are going to do this, I think we need to look at it again as a UK entity. I'd be interested to have those discussions with UK Ministers to say, 'Well, what's our evaluation of how the Groceries Code Adjudicator has done, could it do more, and if it were to do more, what would those options be?' I think it's an open discussion at the moment. I'm certainly aware of my meeting recently with primary producers, particularly farmers, who are saying, ‘We still don't feel we're getting quite the deal that we need for some of our produce. It seems that the value is further up the chain than us.’ So, either through the GCA, or something that my predecessor, Lesley Griffiths, did with the retailers—. I'm having shortly, within the next fortnight, my first meeting with them. I'm keen to explore this as well with them to say, 'Can we do this outside of strengthening GCA, is there a willingness there, particularly with your assurance schemes and so on, to pay the premium for what you're asking producers to do with high animal welfare, high environmental standards—are you going to pass that value down or do we need to come at it a different way like the GCA?' But thank you for those questions.

I don't disagree with anything that Llyr said at all, so I'll try not to repeat. I think ‘producing food sustainably’ is your title, and that wasn't quite what was in the statement, so somebody needs to change the titles.

Puffin Produce has been very successful in getting all supermarkets to supply their potatoes and core veg like cauliflowers, carrots, onions, even leeks. What's the flooding resilience of Puffin Produce, given that, elsewhere in Britain, potatoes are going to be a very rare commodity, and a warning to us all?

As Llyr mentioned, our ambition is to strengthen the foundational economy, so how are the 100 plus members of the sustainability cluster helping to stimulate local growers of veg and fruit given that droughts and heatwaves aren't just affecting the far-flung parts of the world but southern Europe, like Italy, as well? These are the traditional markets that we've drawn veg and fruit from, given that we are not self-sustaining in any way, shape or form.

What measures are supermarkets taking to break down their supply chains so we don't have north Wales eggs being sent off to Lincolnshire to be packaged and then sent back to north Wales shops? That's absolutely ridiculous. We need to have, instead of these just-in-time models that the supermarkets have, a just-in-case model, and a much more sustainable imprint on everything they do.

You need to conclude now, Jenny, please.

Lastly, what action is being taken on eliminating ultra-processed food from recipes in this collaboration with food innovation centres, given that it's absolutely not sustainable from the health point of view to continue to allow these chemicals? And how will you ensure these producers are aware of their global responsibilities not to be using products that have been grown from tearing down the rainforest?

Thank you very much, Jenny—a series of good questions there. In terms of not only Puffin Produce but the wider producers and the supply chain with it, I think this is exactly why a number of the measures I talked about in the opening statement are important from a product design perspective, to build resilience in and to use different ingredients, and so on and so forth. But also, at a primary producer level, the farmers in the field that Puffin Produce use, we need to give them the resilience as well, and that's why actually getting the sustainable farming scheme bang on and right so we can all move forward together is important. Because part of the SFS is also to produce—. Well, the ‘sustainable’ in the title includes all the meanings, but it includes that resilience to climate change. And whether that means in different layers within the pasture land, whether that means in different crops that we are using, different ways that we protect and enhance the soil, and so on, all of those are critical to climate resilience. So this has to be something we do right across from farm, as Llyr was saying, right through to the supermarket shelves, right along the supply chain, and that does mean different product design, it does mean looking at the resilience of the land as well, and everything in between.

Some of the things I mentioned in my opening statement show the work that we're putting in and the investment we're doing through things like the sustainability clusters and others, to actually drive that innovation. And in fact, you rightly pointed out, ‘Well, how do we spread that then, that best practice, not just amongst the producers who are currently involved, but wider in the supply chain?’ That's precisely what the cluster is intended to do. We're growing that. It is growing. There are more people, more organisations coming on board with that. And the purpose of that cluster is not only to innovate but to show by example exactly what can be done, and then to spread that best practice. As a good co-operator, I like that approach of doing it: learn, innovate and then spread best practice. We're very focused on that. Some of the events I mentioned in my opening remarks will give us the opportunity to do that as well, and get more people involved within it.

You raise, quite rightly, the approach that we've traditionally had of just-in-time management; I learnt it as a HND business student about 30 years ago. Now, actually, we do need to think differently. That greater resilience—as you say, just in case—I was very interested, quite a few Members, yourself included, attended recently the event in the Pierhead with the future generations commissioner, and I'm glad that they have turned their attention to food as well and the importance of it, and the need to resist not just future shocks but shocks right now as well to the system. So, I think we do need to build that in as we bring forward the community food strategy, as we take forward—because it's been I think since 2021—our food sector strategy overall. We need to refresh these in light of resilience, climate change adaptation and so on.

And forever chemicals—thank you for discussing this with me a little bit earlier on today as well. I think we do need to turn our attention to this. The issue of healthy, nutritious and affordable diets, that people know where things are coming from and know that things are not harming them, and know that things are not entering the wider food chain and the environmental system as well is critical. I think this is one of the great challenges that we now have ahead of us, and I genuinely say I'm looking forward to turning my attention to that and engaging with you and others who have this at the forefront of their mind, because it's not right that we could have a clear and present danger from forever chemicals that will be affecting not just this generation now, but generations to come. We need to deal with that and do it across the supply chain as well, and that does mean involving the retailers, the buyers, the supply chains, the distributors, and talking about how we design good nutritious food.

I welcome the statement, all that's been said, and I think it's really important to have locally grown, non-processed food for the health and economy of the nation. I'd like to ask you about decarbonising the industry. So, I was working on a campaign with Jo and Bleddyn from Friends of the Earth regarding fridge doors, chiller doors, and I had a meeting with retailers through Welsh Government, but it seems to have stagnated. So, I was wondering if you would help push that further. You go into a supermarket on a warm sunny day and it would be freezing because of all the cold air coming from chillers, and it wastes so much energy. So, I was just wondering if you could help pursue that.

Carolyn, I'd be more than happy. If you could drop me a note on that, I'd be more than happy to see where that's got to and to kick-start that. And you mentioned how we can help with decarbonisation. There are number of ways; I touched on them very, very briefly in my opening remarks, but one of them is the carbon reduction plan pilot programme. This is quite an exciting project. It's being delivered through the food Division's wider programme, so it includes the food and drink sustainability cluster, the scale-up trade development and skills for success programmes. It's working with partners to do things such as baselining their carbon emissions, developing bespoke carbon reduction plans for that business. We've had over 80 expressions of interest now from food and drink businesses so far received. And the other thing is balancing the economic growth with carbon reduction, and this is the way that we can be cleverer on our innovation and investment. We can do it together and, in fact, if we innovate on resilient supply chains, then we build in resilience to them from future shocks and price shocks by doing so. So, there are ways we can do it. We've also got collaboration with our food innovation centres, doing things such as reformulating recipes and much more besides. But if you drop me a note on that particular one, I'd be more than happy to look at how we can pick it up from where you left it and see if we can nudge it along.

Finally, Joyce Watson. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Food sustainability is affected by things like war and climate change, and we've seen war creating unreliable access to key imports of food but also fuel. So, we have to stop our dependence on fossil fuel. But climate change has produced the wettest winter on record, huge issues with slugs and snail infestations right across our country here in Wales, but also local harvests as a consequence, because you couldn't plant anything—it was too cold, it was too wet. Then the opposite, the extreme heat, with failed European crops of salads and suchlike.

So, those are some of the challenges. Some of the answers and investment, of course, are the local weekly food and produce markets, and I frequent one quite often in Haverfordwest, for example. But running alongside that, Minister, could we look at encouraging some of the empty retail shops becoming pop-up shops, with a defined agenda of what's going to be there and when, and excite people to come along, so you regenerate your town centre, but you also give an avenue for retailers to sample whether they might consider taking something more sustainable to that community and themselves in the future? And street food—we don't do street food very well, generally. We do very well when we do street food, but we don't encourage it. It's not in our culture and yet we produce some of the very best food, whether it's red meat, whether it's veg or whether it's fruit.

Joyce, thank you very much, and I'm conscious that we're having some contributions here that are helping me write the community food strategy live. [Laughter.] There is this issue about how we can make that good, nutritious food available on our high streets, and something to do with how we use those empty spaces as well. It was very interesting when I was visiting relatives in Italy, going along a back street, and it was a pop-up store that had emerged in the back street of a town, and it was a mixture of food that was being recycled from some of the supermarkets, but more than that, it also had allotment food and community grower food as well, and it was being sold at a significant discount, very affordably—lots of people of all different socioeconomic backgrounds were going in there. I was intrigued; I went in to see what was going on. But also we've got, closer to home, people like the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, who I know have been doing things where they've invested in empty buildings within communities, and developed them as not just community hubs, but food hubs as well—really interesting. I think there is more within this, and I'm hopeful that some of the suggestions coming forward today might find their way into that community food strategy. So, it isn't simply to do with the big producers and the big suppliers and so on; it's actually to do with drawing together those networks of allotmenteers, community growers, people in that third sector space that want to help that along, and also regenerating our towns and communities. But more than anything, in terms of the sustainability agenda, putting in front of people, in places they can get to, on the streets where they live, good, affordable, nutritious food.

Now, I don't think there's one magic switch that does that, but there's a whole lot of pulling strands together to make that happen. And I think it's very much in line as well with some of the forward thinking in places that we've seen, in the Abergavenny Food Festival and elsewhere across Wales, but also the work that the future generations commissioner is looking at as well, and I have to say, thoughts that have come forward in this Senedd Chamber before from many Members. So, let's see where we get to on the community food strategy, but I'm picking up ideas today as we go along.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.