4. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that whistleblower employees in Wales are able to speak up without fear? OQ61331

The legislation protecting whistleblower employees is a reserved matter. We work in social partnership to promote good practice. Our code of practice on ethical employment asks organisations to commit to a written whistleblowing policy. We also promote trade unions as resourceful partners in helping employers and, crucially, in supporting employees to implement effective whistleblowing processes.

Thank you, First Minister. I've raised this question as, over the last couple of years, I have been approached by whistleblowers from two perspectives, firstly, from anonymous sources who know things are not right, but are fearful of the repercussions to them and their employment if they do actually whistleblow, and then there are those—and I have some live cases at the moment—that have blown the whistle and are subtly or directly being intimidated or undermined by their organisation or work colleagues, and are fearful for their jobs and professional reputation. So, what advice does the Government provide to those who find themselves in this situation, and what advice can be made available to our offices, to advise them in the right way?

Now, I understand what you've just said—that it's a reserved matter—but we have a duty of care in this country to enable people to speak up when things are wrong, and they should not be persecuted for doing so. So, First Minister, I would welcome any advice you can give.

I think the Member raises an important point. Before life in this place I was an employment lawyer. I ran cases for whistleblowers. The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 amended employment rights; it gave rights on whistleblowing for the first time. There are still challenges in the way that legislation works, though. For a start, you've got to have the means to undertake legal action itself, and the real objective for a whistleblower is to try to resolve an issue without compromising their employment. I regularly gave my clients advice: it's about what you can prove, not what you know, and it's also about how we try and keep you in work rather than having a day in the tribunal, because that comes with real risk.

The advice that I would give is severalfold. The first point is that ACAS are always a useful source of advice and information in terms of conciliators, mediators and what they can tell you. There's a second point about our code on ethical employment, because that is about how we expect different partner organisations to behave. Most of our public services, for example, have good written policies on this. The challenge, though, is in the workplace culture, and in large employers in the public or the private sector—and you'll know this from your time on the tools as a council leader—different parts of a large organisation can have quite a different culture to others. So, it's actually about wanting to support people to raise issues without the fear that their employment could be compromised. So, there's that understanding of the external advice and support that is available.

There are two final points. If you're in a trade union, you have access to alternative and independent support and advice. Almost every trade union doesn't just have full-time officers—they have access to legal advice as well, and that advice has to be practical. It’s not just about what you might win in a tribunal, but how do you practically support someone to undertake action that tries to keep them in employment or finds a route for them to a different, alternative employment that does not compromise their future.

The final piece of advice is that I think that the law requires updating. That is part of, actually, what's in our UK manifesto offer at this election. Part of the new deal for working people is to update and improve the legislation and rights of whistleblowers. This is something where, if you blow the whistle, it can be very painful in talking about your colleagues, managers or others, and it’s then how you're supported to do the right thing. So I think the most important piece of advice for individuals is join a trade union, take up the offer that ACAS can provide, and look to what your employer should be doing.

If the Member wants to write to me with individual matters that he wants to discuss, I'd be more than happy to look at them.