Item 5 is the motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Senedd's agreement to introduce a Member Bill, the British Sign Language (BSL) (Wales) Bill. I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM8599 Mark Isherwood

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.91:

Agrees that Mark Isherwood MS may introduce a Bill to give effect to the information included in the Explanatory Memorandum published on 31 May 2024 under Standing Order 26.91A.

Motion moved.

Diolch. In February 2021, during the last Senedd term, and again in December 2022, during this Senedd term, the Senedd, this Welsh Parliament, voted in favour of noting my proposal for a Bill that

'would make provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language (BSL) in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL.'

With Members of all parties voting in favour of the motion each time, demonstrating a clear appetite for such BSL legislation across the Senedd Chamber, and with BSL signers, D/deaf people and communities across Wales continuing to ask me to bring forward a BSL Bill in Wales, I'm grateful for this opportunity to now seek the Senedd’s agreement to introduce this Bill. Following the initial ballot result allowing me to do this, initial consultation was sought, and support was received from several organisations and individuals, including BSL signers from across Wales, British Deaf Association Cymru, Sense, Deaf Film Club, Centre of Sign-Sight-Sound in north Wales, Deaf Gathering Cymru, Our Visual World and Llanelli Deaf Club, some of whom are in the public gallery today, so welcome—croeso.

In October 2018, calls were made at the north Wales Lend Me Your Ears 2018 conference for BSL legislation in Wales, looking at the 2015 BSL (Scotland) Act and their national BSL plan, published in October 2017, establishing a national advisory group, including up to 10 deaf people who use BSL as their preferred or first language. The BSL (Scotland) Act was passed on 17 September 2015, marking a new era in the deaf community’s campaign for the legal recognition of the needs of BSL signers across the UK. I was encouraged when Labour MP Rosie Cooper introduced her British Sign Language Bill in the UK Parliament, co-sponsored by Conservative Lord Holmes of Richmond, when this secured the UK Government's support, and when it was passed in March 2022 and gained Royal Assent the following month.

The UK Act recognises BSL as a language of England, Wales and Scotland, requires the Secretary of State to report on the promotion and facilitation of the use of BSL by ministerial Government departments, and requires guidance to be issued in relation to BSL. However, although the UK Act creates a duty for the UK Government to prepare and publish BSL reports describing what Government departments have done to promote the use of BSL in their communications with the public, the UK Act specifically excludes reporting on matters devolved to Scotland and Wales. The Act does not extend the reporting or guidance duty to the Governments of Wales and Scotland. On 20 February this year, the communities Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive outlined his plans for the development of sign language in Northern Ireland, including bringing forward a sign language Bill. He said he was committed to ensuring that members of the deaf community have the same rights and opportunities as those in the hearing community, and are able to access services in their own language.

Therefore, if my Bill does not proceed, Wales will be the only part of the UK that is not covered by specific BSL legislation. The purpose of this Bill is to make provision to promote and facilitate the use of BSL and its tactile forms in Wales, improve access to education, health and public services in BSL, and support the removal of barriers that exist for deaf people and their families in education, health, public services, support services and in the workplace. This is a language Bill that supports Welsh deaf leadership on all BSL matters in Wales.

This Bill aligns with the seven well-being goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 as they relate to the long-term needs of BSL users and signers of all ages. This Bill would also support existing commitments, including the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Regarding terminology, the British Deaf Association or BDA are calling for the term ‘BSL users’ to be replaced with ‘BSL signers’, and this proposed used of terminology would be included in the Bill’s consultation.

The Bill would also work towards ensuring that BSL signers are not treated less favourably than those who speak Welsh or English, and make sure that deaf communities have a real voice in the design and delivery of services to ensure that they meet their needs. Existing legislation does not meet the needs of the deaf community and BSL signers.

In evidence received by the Scottish Parliament’s Education and Culture Committee on the British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015, BDA Scotland stated that the Equality Act 2010

'accords rights to individuals to protect them from discrimination but it does not protect or promote BSL as a language.'

This Bill proposes to establish a BSL commissioner with the same powers as other minority language commissioners, such as those introduced after the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011; the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005, and the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022. This would show a significant message of support to the BSL signing community in Wales.

The BSL commissioner would formulate BSL standards; establish a BSL advisory panel; produce reports every five years in BSL, Welsh and English on the position of BSL over that period; provide guidance and a process for public bodies to promote and facilitate BSL in their respective domains; and establish a procedure for the investigation of complaints. The exact nature, status and responsibilities of the commissioner would be further developed in collaboration with stakeholders, including the Welsh Government, to ensure that both costs and benefits are addressed as the Bill progresses.

The Bill would extend the reporting and guidance duties applying to the UK Government in England to the Welsh Government in Wales, and place a duty on the Welsh Government to prepare and publish an annual BSL report, describing what Welsh Government departments have done to promote and facilitate the use of BSL.

The Bill seeks to place a duty on public bodies to report on their progress in promoting and facilitating BSL through the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 reporting cycle. Ensuring that BSL is fed into the well-being of future generations cycle would embed BSL into existing policy and legal frameworks within Wales. This would ensure cost-effective resource sharing by leveraging existing structures to create a more equitable society for Welsh BSL signers in the long term.

Sign languages are full languages with their own communities, histories and cultures. The World Federation of the Deaf, with a membership of 136 national deaf associations, emphasises the importance of fostering a positive linguistic and cultural environment, so that deaf children can grow up with a profound sense of belonging, identity and pride in their deaf heritages.

BSL, which is the most common form of sign language in the UK, is a rich, visual, gestural language with a distinctive grammar using hand shapes, facial expressions, gestures and body language to convey meaning. The BDA state that

'BSL is not just a language; it is also a gateway to learning...and the means whereby Deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world.'

Despite the Welsh Government recognising BSL as a language in its own right in 2004, there have long been calls to give BSL full legal status in Wales. Deafness is not a learning difficulty, but deaf children are being disadvantaged by the continuing inequity in outcome. The National Deaf Children’s Society has noted that the additional learning needs—or ALN—code states that deaf children and young people, alongside those who are blind or sight impaired, are

'more likely to have ALN by virtue of the fact the impairment is likely to prevent or hinder them from making use of educational or training facilities and is likely to call for'— additional learning provision. The need for BSL provision for families of deaf babies and children has also been highlighted, with families stating that they have limited access to support groups and other similar families, and are unable to learn BSL unless they can afford the high costs involved.

I have outlined initial costings for the Bill in its explanatory memorandum. The main potential areas of costs and benefits on the introduction of the Bill are around: establishing a British Sign Language commissioner and advisory panel, with supporting administration; formulating BSL standards; producing guidance and a process for public bodies to promote and facilitate BSL; additional costs for public bodies and Welsh Government to report on their BSL usage; annual reporting by the Welsh Government; establishing a procedure for the investigation of complaints; and producing reports on the position of BSL every five years. However, the principle of this Bill is to invest to save, applying early intervention and prevention measures to reduce cost pressures on statutory services further up the line.

If the Senedd agrees to allow me to introduce this Bill today, thereby ensuring that all four UK nations are covered by specific BSL legislation, my team and I will work with the Welsh Government, BSL signers, and public, voluntary and private sectors, to ensure that its development maximises policy impact and meets needs on a cost-efficient basis. I ask for your support. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And thank you to Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this Member debate—I know it's something that you've long taken an interest in.

I am very aware of how important this issue is and the importance of ensuring full and equal access to services and information for British Sign Language signers here in Wales. As Mark Isherwood said, back in 2004, Welsh Government recognised BSL as a language of Wales. The Welsh Government is committed to improving the lives of disabled people. We recently commissioned and welcomed an audit of BSL policies and provision within Welsh Government, published by the British Deaf Association. Welsh Government recognises the need to take a fully intersectional approach to the audit’s recommendations and to considering how they can be implemented in the most effective way.

We are making provisions to promote and facilitate the use of BSL and its tactile forms in Wales, and to remove barriers and improve access to education, health and public services in Wales. Progress is being made. Wales is the first country in the UK to include BSL alongside English, Welsh and other languages in the curriculum. This supports learning and teaching for deaf BSL signers, as well as providing an opportunity for schools to introduce BSL to other learners. We were the first Government in the UK to ensure that our COVID-19 press conferences included the presence of a BSL/English interpreter.

Progress will lead to real and sustainable change. We acknowledge the importance of deaf BSL signers having a voice in the design and delivery of services, to ensure their linguistic and cultural needs are met. Our disability rights taskforce brings together people with lived experience, Welsh Government policy leads, and representative organisations. The taskforce's 10 thematic working groups have over 550 group members, including disabled people, parents and carers, and policy leads. We have been looking at every aspect of disabled people's lives, and aim to remove the inequities and barriers that disabled people face every day. Our working group recommendations show how crucial BSL is to inclusion and equality in Wales.

The taskforce is continuing to raise awareness across Government of the damaging effects on society of excluding disabled people. The upcoming disability action plan will put equality and inclusion firmly at the centre of our vision for Wales, and show how, together, we can transform society from a hostile environment to a place where difference is welcomed. Changing society’s perception and behaviour through policy is challenging. The disability rights taskforce is seeking to create genuine and long-term positive change for disabled people, through a co-produced plan, which will support progress towards ensuring that disabled people have access to the services they need right across Wales.

Welsh Government is committed to improving healthcare services in Wales, and improving provision for deaf BSL signers is a priority. Achieving the well-being of future generations goals must leave no-one behind. Across all Wales’s well-being goals, the experience of deaf people shows that more can be done, so that they can access employment opportunities, maximise their physical and mental well-being, recognising the unique deaf culture, and that they fulfil their potential.

Anti-discrimination and anti-oppression are at the heart of Welsh Government’s values. We seek to challenge and overcome institutional and individual prejudice and challenge social injustice. We have much to learn from deaf BSL signers from Wales, to learn and understand their history and continued fight for equality and representation.

The British Sign Language Act 2022 was adopted and supported by the UK Government. It has implications in Wales for non-devolved areas. However, we know that this does not go far enough. A collaborative and inclusive approach is more effective than legislation, which often does not go far enough and does not engage the right people. But whilst I fully appreciate the intention behind this proposed Bill, I do not think it is needed. We can, and have, made significant progress without a Bill. The Welsh Government did not need a BSL Bill to include BSL in the curriculum, or to ensure we have BSL/English interpreters at Welsh Government press conferences. We can, and we will, use policy levers to create effective change and equality.

I want to use our resources to make more direct and immediate positive changes for BSL users. We can, and we will, continue to work in partnership with deaf BSL signers, and also key partner organisations from Wales, to break down barriers and work in collaboration towards an equal Wales. We can, and we will, work together to create effective change. Working together, we can be the change that we want to see. Wales’s unique structure makes us able to collaborate and drive change in ways that others can’t. We are closer to our citizens, and they can tell us directly what they need. And I will be very happy to meet with you, Mark, to talk further around this, and also I am very interested in the discussions that you've had with the organisations that you referred to in your opening speech.

Wales is a country of pride, a country of inclusion, and a country of social justice. Equity and inclusion need linguistic justice—of Welsh, and of BSL. Welsh Government is committed to the deaf BSL-using community of Wales. Diolch. 

May I thank Mark Isherwood for introducing this Bill? I'm pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the important issues that he raises in the Senedd, because over the past few years, there's been increasing and long-awaited recognition of the important part that British Sign Language has to play in our society, alongside more specific efforts to promote the language and make it more visible in public life.

The fact that the Welsh Government’s daily briefing sessions on COVID were always signed was a positive step forward in this regard, and, as a party, we have consistently ensured that all of our major public activities, including our conferences and manifesto announcements and so on, make appropriate provision to meet the needs of BSL signers.

But we cannot be reliant on the goodwill alone of organisations on this matter, and the explanatory memorandum related to this proposed Bill is right to note the lack of statutory standards regarding BSL as a clear gap in our current legislative framework. More widely, this is an example, of course, of the wide-ranging social barriers that face the deaf community in Wales, which become clear, very often, very early on in their lives.

For example, I am particularly concerned about the fact that Wales has no accredited auditory verbal therapists, who provide specialist early intervention for deaf infants and children, to ensure that they can achieve the same educational outcomes as their hearing contemporaries.

The implications of this lack of support are clear. As mentioned in the explanatory memorandum, deaf learners are 26 per cent less likely to attain GCSE grades A* to C in the core subjects, namely English or Welsh and mathematics, than their hearing contemporaries. Analysis by Auditory Verbal UK has shown that investing as little as £800,000 over the next 10 years would be enough to ensure that every deaf child in Wales has the opportunity to access auditory verbal therapy, which would, in turn, lead to approximately £7 million of economic benefits, by improving quality of life and employment prospects, and by lowering education costs, and, of course, preventing injuries. Does the Member agree with me, therefore, that the issue of auditory verbal therapy should be a specific focus for the work of the proposed BSL commissioner?

I would also welcome the Member’s views on whether the BSL commissioner’s remit should include the ability to set and recommend targets for the Welsh Government and a timetable for closing the attainment gap that I mentioned earlier between deaf and hearing children. Plaid Cymru very much welcomes the way that the proposed Bill would place a duty on the Welsh Government to engage actively with the deaf community in a comprehensive process of co-production on the policies and services upon which they depend, by establishing a BSL advisory group to empower the deaf community across Wales.

The RNID has emphasised that one of the main concerns expressed by the deaf community is the failure to provide access to health and social care services. I myself have received casework where a deaf constituent had been unable to get an appointment with a doctor, while another had no way to communicate with staff while receiving treatment in hospital. This puts their health at risk, undermines their human rights and dignity and is a clear example of inequality. Do you, therefore, Mark Isherwood, agree that access to health and social care should be made a priority issue for the Government and the BSL advisory group under the Bill’s mechanisms?

Finally, does the Member also agree that the specific barriers faced by deaf people in Wales exist on a wider spectrum of social inequality that is deeply rooted in our society, and that we cannot tackle this effectively without investing appropriately and on a continuing basis in our public services? That investment could be greater if Westminster were to have a fairer system to fund Wales. 

There is clear cross-party consensus in this Senedd that much more could and should be done to cater for the needs of signers of BSL, and to strengthen the legal frameworks regarding relevant provisions in public life. Plaid Cymru is, therefore, happy to support the principles of this Bill, and we are also ready to collaborate constructively on a cross-party basis to forge ahead with the work that needs to be done to deliver those principles. Thank you.

I’m pleased today to support this British Sign Language (Wales) Bill, but also, in particular, I'm pleased to be able to support my colleague Mark Isherwood. I'd like to commend Mark for the work that he has done on deaf issues and disability rights over many years in this place, during 20 years as a Member here. It's true to say he's a champion in this place, in this Welsh Parliament, of those who have been, at times, marginalised. He's a champion in letting us understand the issues that they face. This is an excellent example, again, of Mark Isherwood raising these issues. And also, I was once told that passion about an issue or passion about a subject is often shown through perseverance. We've all sat here at times hearing Mark Isherwood persevere on these issues, and it's credit to him today that this Bill proposal is in front of us. 

I myself have been going through the Member Bill process in recent times. It's a really important part of the work of this Senedd. Fundamentally, we're here to create or stop legislation. Member Bills are a valuable part of the work that we do, especially Members who are not on the Government benches. I think Mark's Bill here today, the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill, deserves the time and respect as a piece of Member legislation.

Looking to the Bill itself now, simply put, this Bill has the potential to revolutionise the lives of deaf people all across Wales. All too often, deaf people face barriers in a multitude of areas, from the education system to a variety of public services, as has already been outlined in this place this afternoon. Also, as the explanatory memorandum outlines, many deaf BSL signers have a lower reading comprehension age than the general public. This is of course no reflection of intellectual competence by any stretch of the imagination, but is a direct result of linguistic exclusion, which is not acceptable.

This not only has a negative impact in terms of accessing services, but can also manifest itself in the longer term, especially through outcomes such as poor mental health and societal exclusion. That's why, importantly, a core aim of this Bill is that deaf people who use British Sign Language are not treated less favourably than those who speak Welsh or English. This is a hugely commendable goal and ambition of this Bill.

Just as an aside, my own mum at the moment is learning British Sign Language. She's taking those lessons in Wrexham, and she's reached a certain point in her learning where she's no longer able to continue that learning, because in Wrexham they're not able to progress with the more advanced levels of learning. It's struck me and my family that there's a chance to consider how we include deaf people and how we can play our part in learning BSL to make life simpler and more straightforward for people who are deaf, so that those barriers aren't there.

It’s simply not right or fair that deaf people are excluded from too many parts of life because of their disability. It has to be right for politicians and Governments that disability does not unduly exclude people from being their best. I believe that this Bill allows us in this place and the Government to include more people than we exclude. So, to repeat Mark's words, which he quoted from the British Deaf Association in opening this here today, BSL is

'not just a language; it is also a gateway to learning...and a means whereby Deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world'.

I wrote that down because, for me, that's absolutely profound. We have a very real opportunity that Wales can seize with both hands to make a difference for those who are vulnerable in this way here in Wales. I would encourage all Members to support the passage of this Bill to the next stage. Let’s give progress a chance. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch to Mark for bringing this Member Bill before us today. I wish you well with this development. I wanted to make a couple of points in support of the Bill and the possible benefits of its introduction.

Recently, I attended a meeting with Welsh Women’s Aid and we discussed the barriers that stop women who are at risk of or are experiencing domestic violence from seeking help. One of those aspects was the lack of BSL provision. They said, in response to the ESJ committee inquiry, that approximately 22 deaf women are at risk of abuse every day. However, they continue to face significant barriers when accessing support. There is often a lack of material available in BSL and there is often difficulty finding translation for terms related to violence and abuse.

These communication barriers cause additional obstacles for survivors wanting to access help and support, making it more difficult for them to leave perpetrators and access safety. There must be fully resourced translators for all services to ensure that they are available immediately and a survivor is not left waiting due to the lack of translation provision in their chosen language. Surely, if this Bill does nothing else, this is an important reason for its introduction, and I hope Mark and the Cabinet Secretary agree with me on that.

Another point I wanted to raise was in relation to the future generations Act. We need this Bill to promote and facilitate BSL in Wales, ensuring a link between the BSL Bill and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, so that BSL plans and reporting requirements are fed into the reporting cycle to reduce the burden on public bodies and ensure alignment. What gets measured gets done, so putting a duty on reporting is so important in creating a culture where the use of BSL is embedded.

And finally, providing BSL interpreters as we have here today should be a standard way of working in this Senedd. Parity between Welsh and English is enshrined in law, so why not add a third Welsh language, BSL? Diolch yn fawr.

Can I take this opportunity to thank my colleague Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this incredibly important British Sign Language Bill? I echo my colleague Sam Rowlands's words that Mark has been a true pioneer and supporter of disabled rights. His passion as well as support for BSL have been evident here in this Chamber for decades.

The overarching aim of this much-needed Bill is to break down the barriers facing deaf people in many aspects of society. As my colleague Mark Isherwood said in his initial introduction, British Sign Language is the most common form of sign language here in the UK and helps build a sense of community and belonging for deaf people by using hand shapes, facial expressions, gestures and body language to convey meaning. The British Deaf Association states that British Sign Language is not just a language, it is also a gateway to learning and the means whereby deaf people survive and flourish in the hearing world. Being able to use BSL is a truly fantastic thing, and I firmly believe children should be taught the basics, at the very least, whilst at school. Whilst this would create a future generation of BSL users, opportunities for adults to equip themselves with this skill should also be more widely offered to people across Wales.

Many moons ago, I actually attended a basic BSL course at the Charles Street learning centre in Newport, which was a hugely exciting as well as beneficial experience for me. I did learn basic things, and I am going to actually try and show you here in the Senedd today, as well as to our wonderful guests here in the Chamber, who, as well as those beyond the Chamber, will be able to perhaps assess me. I learned basic things such as 'hello' and 'you can name me'. [Signs in BSL.] You may have to zoom in on the camera. I remember saying my name, which is 'N-A-T-A-S-H-A', and that's about it, I'm afraid. I may be able to say 'thank you' at the end of my speech, but that's all I pretty much remember. I have to give credit to all of the BSL learning centres across Wales, and, ultimately, across the United Kingdom. There have been a lot of repeated calls for BSL to be given full legal status here in Wales, and although the Welsh Government recognised BSL as a language in its own right a decade ago, in my view more can be done and more should be done.

The Bill here today sets out to improve access to education, amongst other areas, for deaf people, and that is incredibly important, as we know that deaf learners generally have a lower educational attainment compared with their hearing peers. Not only that, but, in fact, deaf children are around 26 per cent less likely to achieve A* to C grades in core subjects such as English, maths and science than children who can hear. I'd like you to all remember that many deaf BSL signers have a lower reading age than the general population as a result of linguistic exclusion. This in turn can lead to social exclusion as a direct result of this, which can adversely affect employment, education and healthcare.

There are also issues within health settings when it comes to BSL, with a shortfall of interpreters, especially when it comes to emergency and unplanned care, having a major impact on deaf people accessing public services. If you can all recall a time where you have been to A&E or have needed emergency medical care, now try and imagine being deaf and needing a BSL translator or interpreter and support at such a difficult time.

To put it simply, Deputy Presiding Officer, this Bill will put the voice of deaf people at the heart of the design and delivery of services to ensure that their needs are met in day-to-day life. I am really proud to be standing here today and to support Mark Isherwood’s Bill. I hope all Members here in the Chamber and beyond will see the huge benefits this will bring and vote accordingly. Thank you.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Diolch. As people watching and attending in the gallery might not be aware, the person who opens has to close and summarise the debate held, so I've been scribbling down lots of notes, which is why I wasn't quite ready when you first called me.

The Cabinet Secretary in her response said the Welsh Government's very aware of how important this issue is, and that Wales is a country of social justice, but the Bill is not needed. That's a contradiction. The people in the gallery, the people across Wales, have been telling us year after year—in the cross-party group on disability, which I chair, for example; in the cross-party group on deaf issues, for example, which I chair; at meetings and conferences I have attended, and elsewhere—that we've got to have this, that we cannot be the only country in the United Kingdom that hasn't got a statutory provision in this respect, that we have to impose and require duties on Ministers that apply in other parts of the United Kingdom. To do otherwise would be a gross betrayal and a failure of social justice delivery, a failure to recognise the barriers that BSL signers encounter, a failure to understand their needs and work with them to help them meet those needs.

The Cabinet Secretary referred to the audit of British Sign Language in Wales by the British Deaf Association—I'm aware of that, I've been closely monitoring it for years, engaging with the BDA and questioning your predecessors on this for years. Throughout that process, the BDA have repeatedly stated to me—and I know the predecessor Ministers, because they've told me—that they still need an Act as well. The audit is not an alternative to an Act. She said that Wales is the first UK nation to include BSL in the curriculum and we applaud that, and I, in the past, regularly raised questions about that, as did Members of all other parties. But as we've heard from a number of speakers, deaf pupils continue to be disadvantaged by continuing inequity in outcomes and that will continue unless we provide the specific BSL interventions required to break that cycle of underachievement amongst children who otherwise do not have learning disabilities, do not have learning difficulties, except for those created by the barriers that we still allow to happen, we still allow them to encounter in school and elsewhere in society, and that is not acceptable.

She referred to the disability rights taskforce, with over 550 group members—550 group members are looking at generic solutions, and when I meet them individually, they tell me they're getting concerned that the talking is going on and we need to be delivering on outcomes. We cannot simply, under the umbrella of generic approaches and continuing to raise awareness, fail also to address the condition-specific needs of different demographic groups and communities across Wales, in this case BSL signers and deaf communities.

As I said, if this Bill does not proceed, Wales will be the only part of the UK not covered by specific BSL legislation. Surely, cross party, that would be a matter of shame, especially when the equivalent legislation in the other parts of the UK, passed or going through the process in Northern Ireland, have all had cross-party support. At UK level in the House of Commons, it was a Labour MP that brought this forward, and I supported her for that. And like I said, this is a language Bill that supports Welsh deaf leadership on BSL matters in Wales. No matter how effective and efficient Cabinet Secretaries, shadow Ministers, civil servants and officials might be, they don't have the knowledge or awareness, or lived experience that people who can provide Welsh deaf leadership can provide.

The Cabinet Secretary said that the UK BSL Act has implications for devolved areas. Well, of course it does, because without that, duties applying to Ministers in the UK in England do not apply to Ministers in Wales in relation to the same devolved matters. So, BSL signers and deaf people in England and deaf children in England have provision and duties imposed on the Government there in this respect to report, to provide guidance, which would not apply to Welsh Ministers. That's not a partisan issue, that would again be a matter of disgrace for this nation and all parties in this place.

Sioned Williams said—

Mark, you're going to have to conclude now, we've gone through extra time for you.

Okay. Well, I thank Plaid Cymru for confirming their support. She asked a number of questions and I agree, I think, on all the points you raised, and most of them, I think, would be included in any consultation that would follow if we get the agreement to go ahead. Sam quite rightly said that the Bill has the potential to revolutionise the lives of deaf people across Wales. Peredur, thank you for raising the issue raised by Welsh Women's Aid—this is another barrier faced by women victims of domestic violence and abuse, if they also lack BSL provision when that is their primary language. Natasha Asghar said that we need to help build a sense of community and belonging and a gateway to learning for everyone—in this context, BSL signers and the communities they live and exist within.

So, I urge everyone to put down their partisan flags on this issue—this isn't part of any UK election. I've been calling for this, as have other people across Wales affected by this, for so very long. Let's let it happen. Let's agree to take this forward, and let's start allowing BSL signers across Wales to have a real voice in designing the legislation that will begin to help them better meet the needs that they have, and the rights that they should have in a modern twenty-first century Wales. Diolch yn fawr. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.