Group 7: Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru: appointment and disqualification of members, chief executive and assistant commissioners (Amendments 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)

– in the Senedd at 5:25 pm on 30 April 2024.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:25, 30 April 2024

(Translated)

Group 7 is next. This group of amendments relates to the appointment and disqualification of members, the chief executive and assistant commissioners of the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru. Amendment 3 is the lead amendment. The Counsel General to move the amendment.

(Translated)

Amendment 3 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 5:25, 30 April 2024

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to open the debate on this group of amendments that relate to appointments and disqualifications from the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru. I'll be supporting all the amendments in this group. These amendments, by and large, are a consequence of consideration of the comments that were made during Stage 2.

Amendment 3 clarifies that members of the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru may not hold any of the offices listed in section 4(3) of the retitled Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru etc. Act 2013 during their term of office. Concerns were expressed during Stage 2 that the exclusion list would only apply on appointment. Whilst the intention behind the existing provisions in the 2013 Act was that the list would apply throughout a commissioner’s term, the amendment removes any doubt on this matter. Amendment 17 makes an equivalent change in relation to the assistant commissioners of the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru.

Turning to amendment 4, it is worth highlighting that existing provisions in the 2013 Act already exclude Members of the Senedd and Members of Parliament from being members of the commission. This amendment, when read with amendment 12, clarifies that both Members of the House of Commons and Members of the House of Lords are excluded from being members of the commission, and also adds Members of the Scottish Parliament and Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly to the list. The reason for bringing forward this amendment is partly, as I've said, in response to comments that were made by Members during Stage 2 proceedings in relation to adding support staff of other Parliaments to the list of persons excluded. I think Members will remember that particular debate. If support staff of MSPs and MLAs are to be added to the list, then it's appropriate that the Members themselves are also added. As with other changes made to the exclusion list by the Bill, the amendment also ensures there is no politicisation or perception of politicisation in appointments of members to the commission. 

Amendments 8 and 18 make the same change to the lists of persons excluded from being chief executive and assistant commissioners of the DBCC respectively. Amendments 5, 9 and 19 are technical amendments relating to how the 2013 Act, which the Bill is amending, is structured.

Members will recall that amendments were made to the Bill at Stage 2 that excluded persons engaged by a Member of the Senedd under a contract of services or a contract of services in connection with the carrying out of a Member’s functions from being a member of the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru. Amendment 6 expands on this and makes provision in relation to equivalent persons engaged by Members of the House of Commons, Members of the House of Lords, Members of the Scottish Parliament and Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Amendments 10 and 20 make the same change to the lists of persons excluded from being chief executive and assistant commissioners of the DBCC respectively.  

The Bill, as amended at Stage 2, also provided that a special adviser appointed to assist the Welsh Ministers, the Scottish Ministers or a Minister of the Crown would be excluded from being a member of the DBCC. Amendment 7 changes the way special advisers are described, by simply referring to a special adviser. Amendment 14 then adds interpretive provision into the Bill to ensure this description now additionally captures special advisers of the Northern Ireland Executive. Amendments 11 and 21 make the same change to the lists of persons excluded from being chief executive and assistant commissioners of the DBCC respectively.

Amendment 12 sets out how the term 'Member of a UK legislature’ should be interpreted and is necessary in consequence of the approach taken with amendments 4, 6, 8, 10, 18 and 20, which overall ensure the provision is set out in a clear and concrete manner. I'm getting towards the end.

Amendment 13 is required as a consequence of how the amendments refer to special advisers and ensures that those references will be interpreted correctly. Amendment 15 is another technical amendment that inserts the term 'Member of a UK legislature' into the index of defined expressions table in Schedule 3 of the 2013 Act, as a consequence of the amendments made to the Bill. Similarly, amendment 16 updates the wording used in the entry relating to special advisers, in the same index of defined expressions. These amendments provide clear and coherent provision in relation to the disqualification of commissioners, assistant commissioners and the chief executive of the DBCC, and I ask Members to support them. Diolch.

Photo of Heledd Fychan Heledd Fychan Plaid Cymru 5:30, 30 April 2024

(Translated)

We're very pleased that these amendments address the concerns raised during Stage 2 about the need for a more comprehensive definition of the kinds of individuals who should be disqualified from being a member of the boundary commission. As we pointed out at the time, there was a weakness in the original legislation, as there were no regulations to prevent the staff of Westminster MPs from being members of the commission, as they may have a political interest in trying to keep the Senedd boundaries as close as possible to those of Westminster. These amendments therefore ensure satisfactory consistency in terms of the membership of the commission, and we also welcome the measures to include special advisers to the list of individuals who should be disqualified from being members of the commission, so we'll be supporting these amendments.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:31, 30 April 2024

(Translated)

Counsel General, any comment in reply?

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour

Only to say that, obviously, maintaining the independence and the perceived independence and impartiality is vital, and I hope these amendments have actually achieved that to the satisfaction of the whole of the Senedd. Diolch.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that Amendment 3 be agreed to? Does any Member object? No. Amendment 3 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:31, 30 April 2024

(Translated)

Amendment 4—is it moved, Counsel General?

(Translated)

Amendment 4 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that Amendment 4 be agreed to? Does any Member object? No.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 5 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to Amendment 5? No. Amendment 5 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 6 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Are there any objections to Amendment 6? No. Amendment 6 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 7 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

It's Moved. Is there any objection to Amendment 7? There is none. Amendment 7 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 8 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

It's moved. Is there any objection to Amendment 8? No. Amendment 8 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 9 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:32, 30 April 2024

(Translated)

Amendment 9 is moved. Any objection to amendment 9? No. Amendment 9 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 10 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Any objection to Amendment 10? No. Amendment 10 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 11 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Any objection to Amendment 11? No. Therefore, amendment 11 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 12 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Any objection to Amendment 12? No. Amendment 12 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 13 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:33, 30 April 2024

(Translated)

Any objection to Amendment 13? No. The amendment is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 14 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to Amendment 14? No. Amendment 14 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 15 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Any objection to Amendment 15? No. The amendment is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 16 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to Amendment 16? No. Amendment 16 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:33, 30 April 2024

(Translated)

Amendment 17—is it being moved by the Counsel General?

(Translated)

Amendment 17 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

It is. Is there any objection to Amendment 17? There is none. Therefore, amendment 17 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 18 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to Amendment 18? None. Therefore, amendment 18 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 19 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to Amendment 19? No. Therefore, amendment 19 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 20 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to Amendment 20? No. Amendment 20 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Amendment 21 (Mick Antoniw) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to Amendment 21? No. Amendment 21 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Not moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

It is not moved. So, there will be no vote necessary on Amendment 49. 

(Translated)

Amendment 49 (Adam Price) not moved.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Not moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

It's not moved, and therefore there will be no vote on Amendment 50.

(Translated)

Amendment 50 (Adam Price) not moved.

Amendment

As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.

Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.

In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.

The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.

House of Commons

The House of Commons is one of the houses of parliament. Here, elected MPs (elected by the "commons", i.e. the people) debate. In modern times, nearly all power resides in this house. In the commons are 650 MPs, as well as a speaker and three deputy speakers.

House of Lords

The house of Lords is the upper chamber of the Houses of Parliament. It is filled with Lords (I.E. Lords, Dukes, Baron/esses, Earls, Marquis/esses, Viscounts, Count/esses, etc.) The Lords consider proposals from the EU or from the commons. They can then reject a bill, accept it, or make amendments. If a bill is rejected, the commons can send it back to the lords for re-discussion. The Lords cannot stop a bill for longer than one parliamentary session. If a bill is accepted, it is forwarded to the Queen, who will then sign it and make it law. If a bill is amended, the amended bill is sent back to the House of Commons for discussion.

The Lords are not elected; they are appointed. Lords can take a "whip", that is to say, they can choose a party to represent. Currently, most Peers are Conservative.

Minister

Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.

amendment

As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.

Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.

In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.

The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.