Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

3. Questions to the Counsel General – in the Senedd at 3:18 pm on 23 April 2024.

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Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 3:18, 23 April 2024

(Translated)

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and, first of all, the Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Mark Isherwood. 

Photo of Mark Isherwood Mark Isherwood Conservative

Diolch. Can I be heard? Yes. In which case, public inquiries are major investigations convened by a Government Minister. The only justification required for a public inquiry is the existence of public concern about a particular event or set of events. Although initiated and funded by Government, public inquiries are run independently. Your responsibilities as Counsel General include provision of legal advice to the Welsh Government. On 21 March, the Institute for Fiscal Studies released their 'Major challenges for education in Wales' report, which found that the latest round of Programme for International Student Assessment scores brought those in Wales to their lowest-ever level, significantly below the average across Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries and significantly below those seen across the rest of the UK, that low educational outcomes are not likely to be a reflection of higher poverty in Wales, a different ethnic mix of pupils, statistical biases or differences in resources, and that they're more likely to reflect differences in policy and approach.

They recommended a pause and, in some cases, rethink of past and ongoing reforms in areas including placing greater emphasis on specific knowledge in the new Curriculum for Wales, and delaying reforms to GCSEs to give proper time to consider their effects on long-term outcomes, teacher workload and inequalities. Tomorrow, a call will therefore be made— 

Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 3:19, 23 April 2024

Mark, you need to ask your question now, please. 

Photo of Mark Isherwood Mark Isherwood Conservative

—will therefore be made for the Welsh Government to commission an independent review into its current educational reforms. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give to the Welsh Government regarding this?

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:20, 23 April 2024

Can I just say, in response to that question, my advice would be, actually, to you, that you should direct this question to the Cabinet Secretary for education?

Photo of Mark Isherwood Mark Isherwood Conservative

Well, thank you, but I trust, given your role as Counsel General providing advice to Welsh Government, relevant Ministers would come to you for advice accordingly. And your priority, as I said, on such important matters, should be public concern and not otherwise.

So, let me try another. North Wales's Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is facing calls to be the subject of a public inquiry after 28 prevention of future deaths reports were recorded over a 16-month period, more than the combined number handed to the other six Welsh health boards. A special ITV Wales report reveals the scale of coroners' concerns about the care people receive from this health board before their deaths, with a bereaved husband warning the recorded number of prevention of future deaths reports could be the tip of the iceberg. As you're aware, a prevention of future deaths report can be issued by a coroner if they have concerns about the circumstances in which someone died, and if it appears there is a risk of deaths occurring. A public inquiry would build confidence back into the system and help make improvements to long-standing issues. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give, as the Counsel General, to the Welsh Government regarding this?

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:21, 23 April 2024

Of course, the coroner's service is a reserved service; it's something I believe should be devolved. But all the other areas that you have actually raised should be directed to the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Photo of Mark Isherwood Mark Isherwood Conservative

Well, again, I'm very concerned, as Counsel General, you won't share the advice that you will inevitably have given or be asked to give to Welsh Government Ministers on these matters.

So, I'll have one final go. At the last meeting of the cross-party autism group, which I chair, several attendees shared their experiences of the health and social care system. Participants shared feelings of being targeted by staff in services, with one participant stating that this has affected their ability to feel safe in Wales. Some attendees felt that they had been intentionally parent-blamed and noted this seemed to be aimed at mothers in particular. Some also described how damaging this has been and how it has put the custody of their children at risk. One described their experience with services as one of hostility and prejudices. Participants raised a lack of training and understanding from staff in autism services, and resistance to adopting an autism diagnosis, and many agree there's a lack of accountability regarding the issues raised.

A local authority that several participants identified as of issue was Flintshire County Council, stating that they would like to see an independent public inquiry into the standards of practice in Flintshire. In the interest of public concern, what advice would you therefore give to the Welsh Government Ministers, as Counsel General, to the Welsh Government regarding this, which presumably you would be asked to provide?

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:23, 23 April 2024

I'll just give you the same advice I've given before, that the issues you raise are not unimportant issues, but they should be raised with the appropriate Cabinet Secretary.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

I hope, Counsel General, I'm on firmer ground, given that your list of ministerial responsibilities still includes elections policy and the Senedd reform Bill, to say that democratic reform—democratic health, rather—in its broadest sense, is part of your area of responsibility. I was wondering if you see a connection between that and the mental health and well-being of democracies' elected representatives. And I'm particularly prompted to ask you that following a recent article by Isabel Hardman, the journalist at The Spectator, who has talked about the crisis of mental health among MPs in Westminster. Now, there may be particular reasons for that crisis there now, but I think it's important to recognise it's a universal problem. Indeed, when the Apolitical Foundation, which is a global think tank, produced its report on mental health and well-being recently, I think around 10 per cent of those responding were actually Members of this institution. So, do you see the connection between democratic health and the mental health and well-being of politicians in terms of attracting and keeping people in politics, so it can be properly representative? And also healthy people make better decisions and so should we be concerned about this growing crisis in terms of mental health and elected representatives?

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:25, 23 April 2024

Well, thank you for the question. It raises really quite a number of issues, and those are the stress and pressures that there are on people who decide to go into public service—that's effectively what politicians are. We're living in an environment where it is a very, very difficult environment, particularly with regard to social media, having to deal with the consequences of social media, information, misinformation, and all the particular challenges. I suspect the actual stress and pressures and the impact on physical and mental health are probably greater now in public service and in politics than they actually ever have been. So, the point, I think, you're raising, is absolutely right. We want good governance; we want people to come forward into public service; we don't want people to be dissuaded from coming into public service because of the fear of either the way in which social media might be used to attack them, or indeed to attack members of their family, and also the impact that it might have on people's health. I think we've already seen, haven't we, a number of politicians from different political parties who have already said that they are not going to continue in public service for those very reasons, and sometimes it's the reason because of the impact directly on them, but quite often it's the impact on the people who are around them and on their families, who quite often, through social media, are seen as fair game.

I think there is an issue in terms of well-being. I think it is up to Parliaments, and indeed here to the Senedd, to actually be aware of that. I know this is something that obviously is being considered, and, as someone on the Commission, that's obviously something that is being raised. But I do think it is part and parcel of the picture of something I've talked about, which is democratic health, and I suppose you're right: it's not just about getting people to participate within the system; it's also about enabling people who want to participate within it or want to contribute in some way or other. So, there is a joinder to that. I hope that begins to contribute something towards what is an important issue that you have raised.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 3:27, 23 April 2024

Given the—[Inaudible.]—nature of this increasingly important issue, as you say, at a time of rising abuse and threats in politics, which creates an even more challenging environment, I was wondering if you would possibly raise it at the next meeting of the Interministerial Group for Elections and Registration. I notice that, actually, democratic health is on the agenda of the next meeting, as was resilience. I was heartened at that until I read it was the resilience of print suppliers of election materials, but maybe you could raise resilience in a different sense, which is of people who are at the heart of democracy after all, and maybe suggest some ideas. I think, here, we've got a good story in the sense that our HR department—one of the issues raised by Isabel Hardman—is actually as big as Westminster's, which is a much bigger institution. But some of the other ideas that have been suggested in terms of mandatory training, not just induction training, but every year, for every politician, could that be part of the agenda of our new national school of government, not just training civil servants, Counsel General, but also current and future elected leaders as well? Alongside a code of conduct, why don't we have a job description, so that we don't just have 'don'ts', we also have some positive 'dos', and we don't just have committees of standards of conduct, but committees of positive workplace cultures as well in our parliamentary institutions? 

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:29, 23 April 2024

I think those are all valid points, and I'm sure you'll be making those points to the Commission during the coming year. I think what you're really reflecting upon is that the state of our democratic health is multifactorial, it has so many aspects to it, from civic society to also those who are in politics, who are in public service, and their well-being, because that well-being also relates to their capacity to actually deliver that public service as well as possible. I think it is one of the factors why we need to see this Senedd reformed and increased in size, because of those very pressures and demands that are there, to ensure people can do their job properly and also be satisfied that they have the resource and the time available to be able to do the best job possible, which is what most people want to do. As I say, I look forward to you contributing what I think are important parts of debate that have often not been raised, but I think what is important is that these are things that are very much within the ownership of the Senedd. I think one area that goes on top of that is, probably, often, the lack of understanding in civic society of those particular roles, that there's an educational role and an engagement role as well that is equally important. 

Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 3:30, 23 April 2024

(Translated)

Question 3 [OQ60960] has been withdrawn. So, we'll move on to question 4, James Evans. 

Conservatives

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With a lower-case ‘c’, ‘conservative’ is an adjective which implies a dislike of change, and a preference for traditional values.

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