Item 5 this afternoon is a debate on the general principles of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion. 

Motion NDM8536 Sam Rowlands

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:

Agrees to the general principles of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm delighted and proud to move the motion on the agenda in my name, and so, in opening the debate, we propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11, agrees to the general principles of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill.

I would like to start by thanking the team of people who have helped me to prepare this Bill and the many colleagues who have offered both challenge and support through the various committees and outside of those committees as well over recent months. In particular, I'd like to thank Senedd Commission staff, some of whom are here today, for their significant efforts, as well as my own team, in addition to those in the outdoor and education sector who've supported me, especially Graham French, Dave Harvey, Clare Adams and Paul Donovan, who provided invaluable sector and academic insight. Also, I'm grateful for the engagement of schools and children through this process. It's their passion and commitment and stakeholders across Wales that convinced me of the importance of and the need for this Bill.

When I introduced this Bill in November last year, I opened by asking a question, and the question was: will Wales lead the way? Since then, we have heard evidence from a wide range of groups and individuals, the Majority of whom support the Bill. Indeed, although there are a number of important points to debate, it's been noticeable that almost every person giving evidence, were they for or against the idea of legislation, recognises the value of residential outdoor education and the inequitable access to associated benefits that lie at the heart of the Bill. 

The Bill is placed in the context of education, but I believe that it has a much wider span across different portfolios and all areas of our lives. The benefits of residential outdoor education are keenly felt at a personal level and play a key role in broadening young people's horizons and developing their sense of cynefin. But these experiences also contribute to Wales in a wider sense. Health, well-being, cultural capital and the economy are all critical agendas here in Wales and are all boosted by this Bill. Most importantly, however, by making outdoor education residentials free of charge and a guaranteed part of children's education journey, the Bill removes the postcode lottery aspect of access to those personal benefits. I think Members will all agree that no child should miss out because of their personal circumstances, which is why, following a very thorough scrutiny process, this Bill is before you today in its current iteration.

At this point, I'd like to say that I've actually enjoyed the scrutiny process and I thank each and every committee member who's questioned me and my team, and there were certainly plenty of searching questions. Whilst I won't do so again at this point, I have responded in detail to each committee recommendation, and I encourage Members to read my response if you happen to struggle to sleep. I've noted 'accepted in principle' or 'accepted' for many of the recommendations that have been made following this, which shows how productive the scrutiny process has been, and I intend to bring forward a number of amendments at Stage 2 to respond to these. But there are a few key points, though, I would like to draw Members' attention to in the meantime. 

The purpose of the Bill, as a reminder, is to enable all pupils in maintained schools to experience at least four nights of residential outdoor education free of charge, with that provision able to be split into several shorter visits if needed. There's been some debate around defining outdoor education, but given the wide range of views on this, I consider that to fix a definition on the face of the Bill would be potentially limiting on its future operation, as any Amendment to the definition in order to reflect changes in practice or demand for certain elements of outdoor education would require further primary legislation. 

Taking this approach also gives schools more flexibility to determine the type of experience that is appropriate for its pupils. Along with the type of experience, the schools should also be able to choose the length of visit, appropriate to the age, ability and needs of their children. This is particularly important in the case of pupils with additional learning needs.

The Bill makes providing a course of residential outdoor education a mandatory part of the curriculum—it would therefore be mandatory for schools to provide this course of residential outdoor education—but the intention is that children should not be compelled to undertake it. Headteachers of maintained schools can already determine that provisions of the curriculum for Wales should not apply to a child or pupil. So, if a child did not wish to take part in the course of education provided under the Bill, the headteacher of the school could make that determination.

As I moved through the process and undertook consultations on the policy objectives in the draft Bill, it became clear that there were strong views that the Bill should be widened to include pupils educated other than at school. I absolutely acknowledge that children educated other than at school, such as those in pupil referral units, may particularly benefit from a residential outdoor experience provided under the Bill. I recognise that this is an area of the Bill that could be strengthened. Hearing evidence presented during the Stage 1 process has highlighted this further. So, if the Bill does progress, I commit to reviewing this issue and to work with the Welsh Government to establish the feasibility of extending the provision to pupils in education otherwise than at school and whether this would be best placed within the Bill or by other means. 

The Welsh language Commissioner has also proposed amendments relating to the guidance that must be issued by Welsh Ministers, which I welcome. Over the course of Stage 1 of the Bill, I have given a specific commitment to the Children, Young People and Education Committee in relation to strengthening Welsh language provision. I am happy to set a requirement that residential outdoor education offers opportunities for all pupils to learn and have experiences through the medium of Welsh and that it promotes an understanding of the Welsh language and culture. It is worth noting that, however desirable Welsh medium provision is, though, the ability of the sector to fully meet this goal is currently lacking. The situation is improving, thanks to new outdoor education-related qualifications and organisations such as the Outdoor Partnership, but it's a generational change rather than an overnight fix. I am, though, confident that my Bill passing would be a boost for 'Cymraeg 2050' aspirations and the bolstering of our language across Wales, particularly given many of the outdoor education sites are located in areas where Welsh is widely spoken and celebrated.

It's no surprise that a debate around funding has been a central theme of the Bill to date. In developing the regulatory impact assessment, a significant amount of work was undertaken, including with providers of residential outdoor education, and I truly believe that the costs set out in the RIA are robust and stand up to any scrutiny. This has been reflected in the comments and recommendations of the Finance Committee, for which I'm grateful. The Bill requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance in respect of residential outdoor education and that the guidance must make provision in respect of the costs that it would be reasonable to incur in connection with residential outdoor education. This should provide some safeguard that the cost of visits must be reasonable. However, I'll be happy to explore strengthening guidance provisions in the Bill to further promote the need to ensure value for money.

I would argue that this Bill would have a long-term net positive economic impact, not only on boosting the wider economy of Wales, particularly where those residential sites exist, but by bolstering and supporting the long-term physical and mental health of our young people, which will pay dividends for decades in the future. I believe my Bill is necessary, because while we have an education system and curriculum that aims to provide equally for all children, the reality is that not all aspects of that education are available to everyone on equal terms. Outdoor education residentials are valued by children, parents and teachers alike, yet for those without the means to access them, they are, in fact, unattainable. I believe this is fundamentally wrong, and this Bill sets out to remove those financial barriers to participating in what can be life-changing experiences.

There's an argument that legislation is not needed, and I'm aware there are provisions in the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 that give the Welsh Ministers power by regulations to amend areas of learning and experience. But my Bill ensures that its benefits will be safeguarded for future generations. Fundamentally, you legislate for and you fund what you think is important, and if you want something to be guaranteed, then you put that into law. That is what I'm doing with this Bill and what I hope you will join me in doing this afternoon. I'll be voting for a vision of the future that's truly accessible for all children in Wales, one that has the potential to impact on the future well-being and also the culture and economy of Wales. I truly hope, Members, that you will do the same. I commend this motion and the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill to the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. I'm delighted to speak today in my new role as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Having been a member of the committee since 2021, it's an honour and a privilege to have been elected Chair. We've conducted really crucial work under the excellent leadership of our previous Chair, Jayne Bryant. On behalf of all the committee, I would like to thank Jayne for being an exemplar committee Chair. We look forward to your continued engagement with us in your new role as Minister for Mental Health and Early Years. I'd also like to add a special thank you to Ken Skates on behalf of the committee for his valued contributions and insight.

Turning to the Bill, I'd like to thank the Member in charge for his opening remarks and his open and constructive approach to our scrutiny. It's helpful to receive a written response to our recommendations ahead of the debate, so thank you for that. I'd like to thank those who contributed to our scrutiny of this Bill. Finally, I would like to thank my fellow committee members for their considered and collaborative approach to the Bill's scrutiny.

While there was unanimous agreement with the Bill's intentions and policy objectives, we could not come to a single view on general principles. Some Members had concerns about the cost of the Bill and potential issues with implementation, whereas other Members felt these concerns could be addressed by the Member in charge during the remainder of the scrutiny process and that the Bill should therefore proceed. I’m sure we will hear some of these different views during the rest of the debate. However, we did make eight recommendations. The Member in charge accepted two in full, two in part, and one in principle. He rejected two and noted one.

I will now turn to some of these in more detail. The Member in charge has been very clear that the current inequality in residential outdoor education provision was a leading factor for introducing the Bill. He described it as a social justice issue; on this we agreed. Yet the Bill as currently drafted excludes some children and young people in education, and therefore does not provide for universal provision. In particular, we heard about how children and young people in education other than at school may particularly benefit from the opportunities provided by residential outdoor education. Many of the stakeholders we spoke to felt this was a gap in the Bill. We felt strongly that this was an area for Amendment if the Bill progressed and recommended amendments to include pupils in education other than at school within the scope of the Bill's provision.

The Member in charge accepted this in principle. He highlighted the basis on which he was given leave to proceed, which was to establish a statutory duty to ensure all young people receiving maintained education had a residential outdoor education opportunity. In developing the Bill, he said it was felt that the best way to deliver this was to use the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021. The 2021 Act places different curriculum requirements on children in education other than at school. The Member in charge recognises this is an area where the Bill could be strengthened and we are pleased to see this. We welcome this commitment to further reviewing this issue, including working with the Welsh Government to establish the feasibility of extending eligibility. If the Bill proceeds, we will keep a watchful eye on these developments.

Another critical issue explored in detail by us and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee was the mandatory nature of the provision. The Member in charge was clear in his evidence to us that children would not be mandated to attend, and that the mandatory aspect was the offer being made by schools. However, any opt-out system would have to be done through the mechanism set out in section 42 of the 2021 Act. The then Minister for Education and the Welsh language described this as a blunt instrument for this particular job. We agreed and therefore recommended that amendments be brought forward at Stage 2 to put on the face of the Bill that the offer of residential outdoor education was not mandatory to take up. I note that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee made a similar recommendation calling for the Bill to be amended to include an opt-out mechanism. The Member in charge has accepted our recommendation, although he says he is not sure if an amendment is required, but is happy to explore whether such an amendment would make the intention of the Bill clearer and its effect easier to manage in practice. We welcome this open approach and if the Bill progresses we'll take a keen interest in any relevant amendments tabled for Stage 2.

I would like to briefly touch on some other recommendations we made. These included calling for the Welsh Government to commission a review of capacity within the sector with a particular focus on accessible and inclusive provision and Welsh-medium provision. These are issues that we heard about during the scrutiny of this Bill and also in relation to inclusive provision as part of our work looking at disabled access to education and childcare. This will obviously be a matter for the Welsh Government rather than the Member in charge if the Bill proceeds, but it is good to see that the Member in charge would welcome such a review and that he can see how it would support implementation of the Bill.

Finally, I highlight recommendation 6, which supported the proposed amendments suggested by the Welsh Language Commissioner. The Member in charge has accepted this recommendation in part. He said he would be happy to accept the amendments that would ensure that residential outdoor education provision should, in line with the Curriculum for Wales, provide opportunities for all pupils to learn and have experiences through the Welsh language and that provision should promote an understanding of Welsh language and culture. We welcome this. However, he does not accept the proposed amendment from the commissioner that would require all providers to be able to offer provision through the Welsh language. I expect that these issues and others will further be debated if the Bill progresses.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this Stage 1 debate on the second Member-proposed Bill to be introduced this Senedd. Our report comes to four conclusions, and makes 11 recommendations. I’d like to start by thanking Sam Rowlands and his officials for attending our committee and for providing a response to our report before today’s debate. I’d like to congratulate Sam and his team on the level of detail provided on the cost estimates included—easy for me to say—in the regulatory impact assessment. I believe that this approach sets a good example for future Bills. Having said that, it is disappointing that the Member has been unable to accept over half of our recommendations.

Although we are broadly content with the costs included in the RIA, subject to the recommendations in our report, we must also recognise the significant level of funding required for this Bill, set against a backdrop of Welsh Government budgetary pressures.

Before turning to specific recommendations, I’d like to highlight our expectation that funding for all Bills should be considered on an equal basis and to the same standard. During our consideration of this Bill, the Minister commented that it was too 'risky' to commit to forecast costings with no indicative budgets post March 2025, given the current financial climate and the 'novel' approach in funding for one aspect of the curriculum. Our view is that a five-year appraisal period for this Bill is appropriate and is in line with the timescales applied by the Welsh Government in assessing the impact of the Bills it introduces.

Similarly, the Minister also raised concerns that the costs set out in the RIA may not reduce over the five-year appraisal period, due to the current rate of inflation. We are content with the approach adopted by the Member in charge in removing inflation when costing the Bill, as it follows HM Treasury Green Book guidance and is in line with the approach taken by the Welsh Government. However, due to the significant cost of his Bill, we recommend that the Member in charge undertakes further analysis on the potential impact of inflation, and it’s good to see this recommendation has been accepted.

Moving on, it is disappointing that our recommendation to provide further analysis in estimating the benefits of the Bill was rejected. However, we were encouraged that the Member in charge fully supports any post-legislative analysis on whether the expected benefits of the Bill have been realised. The committee also welcomes a commitment from the Member in charge to explore the possibility of including a post-implementation review on the face of the Bill, if the Bill progresses to Stage 2. The inclusion of a robust post-implementation review is good practice and helps provide assurance as to how delivery of the objectives of the legislation will be monitored. Additionally, the committee welcomes the clarification provided by the Member in charge regarding any potential inspection requirements associated with the Bill, including any role for Estyn, and the further information provided on achieving effective monitoring. 

The committee made several other recommendations requesting further information, including analysis on the estimated costs in relation to additional learning needs, teacher supply cover, non-specialist items such as clothing and footwear, and tracking pupils’ participation. It is disappointing that these have all been rejected, but we note the reasons given by the Member in charge in his response. 

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, our recommendation to undertake further work on the cost implications of potential changes to the school teachers pay and conditions document was also rejected. Although this is once again disappointing, as this cost is potentially significant, we recognise the difficulties in making such an estimate and note the reasons given by the Member in charge. Thank you very much. 

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. Sarah Murphy.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would also like to begin by thanking Members for their support in electing me as Chair of the LJC committee. I welcome this new challenge. I really look forward to working with other members of the committee, and also the very good clerking team. I would also like to thank and recognise the work and commitment of the former Chair, Huw Irranca-Davies. Wherever you are, Huw, you will be a very difficult act to follow. I was, of course, not a member of the committee during scrutiny of the Bill, however I would like to thank Sam Rowlands, as the Member in charge of the Bill, and Jeremy Miles, the then Minister for Education and the Welsh language, for giving evidence earlier this year to inform its scrutiny. I feel that it is important to recognise the work that Sam has put into bringing forward the Bill, and therefore I would like to draw attention to the committee's findings. I would also like to thank Sam for issuing, on Monday, a comprehensive response to the six recommendations the committee made in its report.

The first recommendation of the report relates to the core aim of the Bill, which, as the Member in charge told the committee, is to ensure that a course of residential outdoor education is provided as a mandatory part of the curriculum, although children would not be compelled to attend. The Member in charge's view is that a pupil can opt out of receiving that provision by relying on existing regulations made under the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021. However, the committee found that those regulations do not present an appropriate mechanism for a pupil to opt out of such a provision. It came to that conclusion for two reasons. First, the mechanism would only allow a pupil to be opted out on a temporary basis, and, secondly, a pupil would also be required to support their request to opt out with reasons for a headteacher to consider. Therefore, the committee recommended that should this Bill proceed today, it should be amended to include a more appropriate opt-out mechanism on its face. I note that the Member in charge does not share the committee's view on this matter, however he has committed to explore whether such an Amendment could be brought forward at Stage 2 to make the Bill's intention clearer and to make its effect easier to manage in practice.

Recommendation 2 reflects the fact that the Bill, as introduced, does not include a definition of 'residential outdoor education'. The committee's view is that the Bill should include such a definition, although the Member in charge does not agree. In the committee's view, this is for reasons of accessibility and good practice, and including a definition on the face of the Bill is more appropriate than relying on information contained in the explanatory memorandum, or the residential outdoor education code, as suggested by the Member in charge.

I will turn, now, to recommendations 3 and 4 of the report, which deal with the fact that the Bill imposes a duty on Welsh Ministers to issue guidance in respect of outdoor residential education. The Bill, as drafted, includes prescribed requirements that must be set out in that guidance. However, it is unclear to the committee why it is not appropriate for such provision to be placed on the face of the Bill. The committee therefore recommended that the Bill should be amended to remove the requirement for those matters to be set out in guidance and to instead insert them directly onto the face of the Bill. In light of this recommendation, it also recommended that the Member in charge should consider whether it's necessary for the Bill to impose a duty on the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance. It does not, indeed, deem that requirement to be necessary. The committee recommended that the Bill should be amended to include the duty as a stand-alone provision within the 2021 Act. The Member in charge has accepted recommendation 3 of the report in principle, by committing to consider each of these prescribed requirements in turn, to determine whether they can be prescribed or dealt with in a different way. He has also accepted recommendation 4, by committing to bring forward an amendment to include the duty as a stand-alone provision. 

We note that the Member in charge has rejected recommendation 5, and that, as a result, the Member in charge is content that the Bill’s requirement for guidance to provide that residential outdoor education should only be provided in Welsh subject to availability and where requested.

The final recommendation questioned whether the Bill should be amended to extend the date by which the first residential outdoor education code and guidance should be issued. I am grateful to the Member in charge for accepting this recommendation, subject to further dialogue with the Minister on this matter, should the Bill proceed today. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by thanking Sam Rowlands and his team for his work on this Bill, and also thank him for his engagement with myself and my predecessor? I'd also like to thank the Chairs and members of the three scrutiny committees for the work they've done on the Bill.

Like my predecessor and from my work as the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, I recognise how much learning outside and experiencing the outdoors has to offer, broadening horizons and contributing to good physical health and mental and emotional well-being. These benefits have been widely recognised by everyone in the progress of the Bill to date. Our new Curriculum for Wales recongises these benefits and is designed to ensure that they're realised, not simply at one point in a leaner's journey, but ensuring that they are threaded throughout learners' time at school. That’s why the statutory guidance for the curriculum expects schools to develop learning opportunities outdoors, from ages three through to 16. It is a clear expectation of the framework that children learn outdoors on a regular basis, and this helps them become healthy, confident individuals. It is a particularly strong component of our support for our youngest learners, but it needs to be developed throughout the school journey.

The details of this will differ from school to school, depending on the school space, and the age and development of the learners. This recognises that what engages learners best and is most supportive for them to develop a lifelong love of the outdoors will vary. There is no one-size-fits-all approach. It also recognises that if we want to change children’s behaviours into adulthood, these behaviours need to be built over time, through continuous exposure to the outdoors. This is so much more important than any single Intervention.

These benefits are crucial, but, unfortunately, neither I nor my Cabinet colleagues believe that this Bill is the best way to widen those benefits or residential outdoor education at this time. This Bill would place an absolute obligation on the Welsh Government to both ensure provision and fund a residential outdoor experience for every learner of compulsory school age in a maintained school in Wales, with a likely cost well in excess of £20 million per year.

The effect is that the Welsh Government would have to expressly fund residential outdoor education over and above any other aspect of the new curriculum and, indeed, any other education provision. I recognise that the Member has done a great deal of work to scope out the likely cost of this. I am sympathetic to that, as I am aware of how difficult a task that is.

The Finance Committee has acknowledged that there is still much more work to do to establish the real costs, if the Bill were passed. I am grateful, too, that the Finance Committee’s report noted the current budgetary pressures and the significant level of funding that would be required. Furthermore, throughout the Stage 1 evidence gathering, significant concerns have been raised by stakeholders, especially the Welsh Local Government Association, the Association of Directors of Education and our education unions, about the impact on an already stretched financial situation.

Many stakeholders have highlighted the significant change agenda already being managed by schools in relation to implementing reforms, and the risk of additional challenges to our school workload. Delivering the requirements of this Bill would require changes to the terms and conditions of staff in schools, for example, which many believe could have a detrimental impact on recruitment and retention within the workforce.

I note also the significant concerns raised about the capacity of the residential outdoor education sector to meet the provisions of the Bill, especially in terms of Welsh language provision and ensuring equity of provision for those with additional learning needs. As we have heard, the Children, Young People and Education Committee had similar concerns. Whilst members of the committee were unanimous about the intentions of the Bill, they were unable to reach a consensus on the general principles because of some significant worries about its financing and implementation.

We also consider that the Bill contains a number of legislative weaknesses, many of which have been highlighted by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. For example, it does not define on the face of the Bill what constitutes residential outdoor education. It does not apply to pupil referral units. And it does not provide an appropriate legal mechanism for a pupil to be exempted from the mandatory requirement for all pupils to undertake a period of residential outdoor education. I note here that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has recommended that the Member bring forward several amendments to address these.

In light of the above, we remain convinced that the general principles of this Bill, while well intentioned, should not be supported. Finally, however, as I and my predecessor have said many times, the contribution that residential outdoor education makes to education in Wales and the development of our children and young people is important and does warrant our recognition and attention. I would therefore like to thank the Member for the work he has done on the Bill to date, and for raising the profile of this vital part of our learners' development journey. The Member and I met earlier this week to discuss this, and I'm pleased to say that we have agreed that there are a number of areas outside legislation that we could explore together to seek to elevate this contribution even further. Diolch. 

I'd like to first congratulate Sam for bringing this forward, and congratulate his Bill team as well on the huge amount of work they've put in, and the high-quality work, as we hear from the finance Chair. I believe this Bill would put Wales firmly on the map for taking a pragmatic but pioneering approach to education and the social development of our young people.

Often in education we see policy makers seeking radical changes to provide our future generation with the best tools to carve their own future, yet we ignore the real building blocks to childhood education, things that are not taught on an e-board, but are learnt in a natural environment, such as confidence, independence and team working—vitally important attributes for future life. And this is something that my colleague Sam rightly seeks to guarantee in our education system with this Bill.

In Monmouthshire, maintaining and subsidising access to outdoor education was a priority for decades. We provided the service with other Gwent councils, but over the years neighbouring councils withdrew their support for no other reason than to make efficiencies. I'd say that was a sad indictment on them. However, we rationalised our provision and maintained the offer, as we had seen the benefits for children for decades. My own children, and no doubt many of yours here, will have benefited from the experiences that they had whilst accessing outdoor education. It's so easy to dismiss things on financial grounds, as we've heard already, and I'm sure there will be Members who will support the merits of the Bill, but have sadly been told not to support due to cost—something I've heard when I brought forward my own Bill, and it's a sad indictment on this place, which doesn't enable backbench legislation to progress.

As I've said before in this Chamber, we need to think of things in different ways. What price do we put on the child's well-being? It is an irrefutable fact that being in the outdoors contributes to increased mental well-being, alongside staying active. And yesterday we heard the First Minister saying how the Government's priority will be on our young people, giving them the best chances in life, he said.

'We will do everything we can in making sure that children can grow up feeling happy and hopeful for their future.'

That was a quote. Surely this Bill would be fundamental to that end, Dirprwy Lywydd. If we can curate a lifelong love of outdoors and physical activity in the next generation, then we have not just left the Welsh public in a better place than we found it, but we will be saving the NHS and other social services tens of millions of pounds in services that assist with mental health and obesity. This Bill is not fanciful; it should be an important part of our educational pedagogy. The proof is in the fact that similar Bills are being brought forward both in Holyrood and Westminster. But we have the unique opportunity to pass this Bill before anyone else does. Let's not just follow the crowd. We need to lead the way and today, Senedd, we have the opportunity to just do that. 

I urge the Senedd to support this Bill and enable it to proceed to Stage 2. All of the things everybody's talked about that have a slight negative element can be looked at through Stage 2, through amendments. Why don't we allow these things to progress and see where they go? And if you can't find a way through that, then things can be stopped in the future. Why always stop legislation before it has an opportunity to progress, to breathe and to really show what it has the potential to do? It's essential that we really safeguard the future well-being of our children, and this is not just a Bill for now, but I see it as a Bill for future generations also. Diolch.

May I start by thanking Sam Rowlands for all of his hard work on this Bill? I’ve had the pleasure of being on the Children, Young People and Education Committee scrutinising this Bill. I’ve asked a number of questions of Sam and we’ve had a number of very lively discussions on the issues, and I do believe, as Peter Fox said, that there is benefit in us moving forward with this Bill, and seeing what could be agreed upon through amendments.

I do have concerns, some of them in relation to how we ensure that the economic benefits of this proposal remain here in Wales. Because, if we are going to make this kind of investment, it would be fantastic to think that everyone would have that opportunity and the economic benefits for so many of our communities would be excellent. We heard about the provision that would need to be extended, and what this would mean for many providers who are perhaps struggling to fill their premises throughout the year—excellent, and I hope that would encourage children and young people to encourage their own families to take advantage of these facilities too. So, of course there is a need to ensure, I believe, that this provision is in Wales if we are to invest in it.

I also welcome what Sam said about some of the things he has agreed upon in terms of strengthening the cultural aspects, not just linguistically, but that we do have those benefits also. Without doubt, I very much hope that we would all agree on the benefits that emerge not only from outdoor education, but also residential experiences. I’d also like to thank all of the teachers and teaching assistants in schools who are already supporting this. We do often hear that not every child in Wales has these opportunities, but I also know of schools who do excellent work in ensuring that every child, no matter what their background is, does have this opportunity. And I think it’s important that we recognise that some of the things that this Bill aims to deliver are already being delivered—the problem is that it’s a postcode lottery at the moment, meaning that not every child has those same opportunities.

We must also reflect on what the Minister said in terms of the huge pressures on staff at the moment. They often do this voluntarily, they don’t receive any additional payment for this work, and they do it because they see the benefit of it for the children and young people in their care when they are in our schools.

There were some concerns raised in terms of the Urdd, and the fact that the Cardiff camp, or Pentre Ifan, wouldn’t qualify. And that’s why I would like to see how we can expand that idea of residential opportunities to include getting to know different areas of our nation too. I know about a number of schools from north Wales who do benefit from coming down here to Cardiff in order to visit the national museum, for example, which we were just discussing earlier, and to visit this Senedd too, and perhaps we do need to ensure, therefore, that we don’t restrict residential opportunities, meaning that those kinds of trips could not happen.

Now, I’m sure that most people here will have had these opportunities themselves. I certainly wouldn’t have heard of the black nun if I hadn’t gone to Llangrannog and Glanllyn and had nightmares about the black nun. But the benefits aren’t just about the activities that you undertake there; socialising, getting to know people from other schools, is all part of this. So, I am eager that we should look pragmatically at this, not just look at the financial implications, but consider how we will ensure, if there is a way by allowing this Bill to progress, that we can, through amendments, ensure that it does what we all want to see it do, namely, provide that equality that every child, wherever they are in Wales, whatever school they attend, or if they don’t attend any school, that they have that equal opportunity. And if we can work together to ensure that, I think we will have achieved a lot as a Senedd. Thank you.

I'd first like to start by congratulating and thanking my colleague, the Member for North Wales, Sam Rowlands, for all his hard work on this Bill and getting it to this stage. I agree with what all my colleagues have said so far on this Bill, but particularly with Peter Fox's last words just now that this is a Bill for future generations, and I think that's a very key sentence when thinking about and contemplating this Bill and why we should push it forward. 

The ideas and aims of this Bill are admirable, but the benefits are huge—that every child should have the opportunity for an outdoor residential experience. Although I would like the Member, Sam Rowlands, of course—sorry, I can't speak very well—to ensure that all children, and I mean all children, as the new Chair for the children and young people committee has just outlined, have that opportunity, because at the moment certain children are left out. So, it's really vital that we do include those children, because it's actually those children who are missing from that at the moment that are perhaps the most vulnerable and would benefit the most from a Bill of this kind.

As we all know, making sure that children have access to residential outdoor education would have a long-term positive impact on mental and physical health, as well as creating good habits, as the Member has outlined earlier in his speech. It also saves money long term, because, by taking a preventative health approach, it bolsters that mental and physical health for the future—particularly good when we look at ourselves as a country that has appallingly bad obesity rates within children. 

It also gives young people memorable experiences, which gives them confidence and teamwork skills, and a variety of other benefits that we've outlined time and time again within our CYPE committee and in this Chamber already, as well as promoting Wales and the Welsh language—there are so many benefits and opportunities there—and also to benefit our Welsh outdoor education centres, as Heledd outlined, and our local economies. The Bill would benefit those children particularly from urban areas who may not usually have the chance to explore the countryside and see everything that Wales has to offer. 

It would also benefit children from poorer families, who are often priced out of residentials. In turn, this would help close that educational inequality gap. At the moment, these opportunities are, as Heledd has already outlined, a postcode lottery, and that is not a good place for us to be in here in Wales. The activities offered are challenging and adventurous, and the Bill would enhance, of course, the competencies at the heart of the new Curriculum for Wales, namely healthy, confident individuals who are creative contributors, ambitious and capable learners and ethically-informed citizens.

There are, of course, some concerns that we discussed in our committee, but I hope that this Welsh Government can look still to support this Bill and see what more can be done. I think it would be a real shame if it stopped now and didn't go forward, because I want to see the Government put more effort into working closely with the Member to develop what is so positive about this Bill. But, also, for what you're concerned about, there are opportunities and there are solutions to it. If we look hard enough and we work hard enough, we can find that money, as Peter Fox said, and we can find solutions if we want to.

Even if the Welsh Government can't support it, I really hope that today they will work with the Member for North Wales to see what can be achieved to provide those better opportunities for children across Wales, striving for that equality of opportunity for all, which should be so important to every single Member in this Senedd. But I urge everyone today to support this Bill so that it can move forward to the next Stage, Stage 2, and I urge you to do that. Thank you.    

In principle, this Bill is a lovely idea. We know that the environment a child learns in is crucial at any age. If a child does not connect with nature by the age of 12, they will not do so as an adult. And so, to build a lifelong positive relationship with outdoor environments and nature, learners need continuous opportunities to learn, play and explore outdoors through all stages of mandatory education, and through access to play and leisure. 

However, when it comes to legislation, we cannot pursue nice ideas without facing the harsh reality. After more than a decade of austerity, we know that finances are extremely tight. The Welsh Government budget is worth £1.3 billion less thanks to the Conservatives' mismanagement of the economy. Every area of Government is having to make sacrifices and prioritise. Sam estimates the additional cost to the education budget would be £19.7 million a year, so we're having to look at covering teachers, the lodging, transport—it all adds up—and perhaps clothes, as well, that are needed. At a time when schools are having to face extremely difficult decisions, including redundancies, placing additional pressure on the education budget would be unthinkable. School transport costs have risen by 40 per cent, we heard at the Local Government and Housing Committee, due to inflation, and it's really already such a stretch to meet the learner travel Measure. We're trying to look at extending it, but we can't, and we simply cannot cut front-line school budgets to fund this policy.

On top of this, the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 is already a huge change for education settings. They will need time and support to fully implement that in order to achieve the best results for learners. We also have new additional learning needs reforms coming into place, and I was sitting here when I heard, earlier, Natasha Asghar asking for extra funding for additional learning needs, which is really, really important. There are all these bids going in for the budget, which is so tight. The changes proposed by the Bill will place additional burdens on staff and take away time when they can focus on the new curriculum. I know teaching unions provided evidence expressing their deep concern about the additional burden this Bill would place on the shoulders of teachers.

Residential trips are simply not possible when staffing levels aren't high enough to deliver them safely, when teaching continues for other groups. In order to afford a long-lasting connection to nature and outdoor activities, children need so much more than a singular experience. Fantastic work is being done by schools across Wales to engage children with the outdoors, including outdoor learning areas at foundation phase, Forest Schools and Landscapes for Learning. I visited St Peter's in Wrexham recently, where they had grant funding from the Arts Council of Wales and were learning about their outdoor area, connecting with nature, and they've been working on seagrass projects, which they brought down to the Senedd steps, which was amazing.

We also need to ensure older children are encouraged to be more active. That's why the Welsh Government has, and will continue, to emphasise the role of outdoor learning across the curriculum, in areas including health, well-being, science and technology, humanities and expressive arts. Access through Girlguiding, Scouts, youth clubs, Duke of Edinburgh and other groups—. The Ramblers is also really valuable in ensuring that our public rights of way are kept open. It's really important. So, it's important we continue to value the commitment and contribution to the outdoor education sector and what it does bring to education in Wales, but we cannot forget the financial context in which we find ourselves.

I recently visited the wonderful Bryntysilio Outdoor Education Centre in Llangollen, and we talked about funding, going forward, and grants that might be available to them now. We talked about the shared prosperity fund, and they were also bidding into the Multiply fund, which is awash with money, it seems like—there's too much money in that pot; they can't spend it—but they're bidding for that as well, to work differently. And they're also looking to work with the Clwydian range and Dee Valley area of outstanding natural beauty, soon to be national park, which will help them as well, bring a boost. But, I must say, we need to make front-line education our priority, so I cannot support this Bill.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon, and I'm pleased to say that I don't share the negativity of the previous Speaker in regard to this Bill. And I thank Sam Rowlands for bringing it to the Senedd today, and I've seen myself—you know, you've worked on this Bill in many aspects, not just working on the details of the Bill here in the Senedd, and working with the relevant people and staff here, you've also gone out to different parts of Wales. I've seen you in canoe boats, I've seen you in woodland areas, I've seen you all over the country. So, you've not just done it at a policy and Bill level here, you've also made the effort to go out there and engage with the right stakeholders to form this Bill, and I think that it shows great credit to your commitment to this Bill, which I think should be rewarded and treated with more positivity on the Labour benches over there.

And there are countless benefits of outdoor education for children, and the wealth of evidence for this is watertight. Outdoor education is beneficial for mental and physical well-being, the health benefits also saving money on public services in the long run. It equips children with essential lifelong skills, gives children from urban areas access to the outdoors, and provides children from households for which private outdoor education centres are unaffordable the same opportunity as other children. It's beneficial to children academically and will help close the education inequality gap. We had 44 outdoor education centres in Wales before COVID-19, and over 10 per cent of these closed during the pandemic, so availability is shrinking, and for many parents on lower incomes it is simply not something that they can afford.

But, for me, the most important part of outdoor education is the effect it has on a child's mental well-being. Coming out of a pandemic in which children had been shut indoors for two years, access to the outdoors is imperative. A YoungMinds survey showed that 74 per cent of teachers and school staff agreed that lockdown had a negative impact on the mental health of young people, and the benefits to the human brain of the outdoors and nature have always been self-evident to most of us, but this is also recognised by science. A study by the University of Exeter medical school found that there are strong and consistent benefits for mental health and well-being from exposure to natural environments, and it can be found that the socioeconomic inequality in mental well-being has been shown to be narrower among those who report good access to green or recreational areas.

Emerging from the pandemic, I think we gained a new appreciation for how important social and communal activities are to one another, and how important nature and the outdoors are to our well-being. They are even more important to a developing brain, and we should use this time to rethink how our children should spend their day in school. Sitting at a desk for six hours is unnatural for anyone, never mind a child, and, with this Bill, Wales has the opportunity to lead the way in diversifying the school day and incorporating outdoor education, the benefits of which I have briefly summarised, and I'm sure we'll hear more of in Sam's closing remarks and those of any other speaker in this debate this afternoon.

But, if you care about improving the mental health of our children, if you care about educational attainment, if you care about levelling child inequality, then please join the Outward Bound Trust, Scouts UK, Scouts Cymru, UK Youth, the YHA, Girlguiding, the Field Studies Council and many more in supporting this Bill. Thank you.

I'd like to begin by thanking Sam Rowlands for bringing forward these issues for discussion in the way that he has. I do believe, as others have said, that it's obviously very important that the outdoors, connecting with nature and activity, have a very central role in the educational experience of our children and young people, and that does happen in the general educational experience that takes place here in Wales. But I do also believe that, beyond that, the particular experience of residential outdoor activity has a very important part to play, and we see that reflected, I think, in the way that it is available right across Wales in so many of our schools. But that does, I think, bring forward the question, as Sam has addressed, as to the variation and how we can make sure that that opportunity is available more consistently across all our schools to all our pupils, and particularly, I think, to those pupils from more disadvantaged families, and, yes, that does include children educated otherwise than at school. I think it is significant that, as this debate has continued, that particular issue has come more to the fore.

So, I very much welcome, Dirprwy Lywydd, what the Cabinet Secretary has said about continuing to work with Sam Rowlands, so that beyond this particular legislation, these particular legislative proposals, there can be an ongoing dialogue between Welsh Government and the Member as to how we can gain more from the debate that we've had, from the proposals that have been made, and ensure that more of our pupils here in Wales, more of our families, benefit from that residential outdoor educational experience, because I do believe it is powerful.

It's outside the general experience of education, isn't it, which gives it a power beyond that general experience. And because socially it's important, and because it's a new experience for some pupils who haven't, perhaps, stayed away with their families, perhaps don't go on holidays with their families, don't go away for weekends with their families, for those particular pupils, it's something new and very different, isn't it? I do believe it builds confidence, it gains social skills, and that confidence can then rub off on their general educational achievement and the confidence that they have in their journey through life.

So, it has got an important part already, hasn't it, but it could more consistently play an important part in our general educational experience, and it could particularly benefit pupils from families that need that extra help. Finance is a barrier for those families, isn't it? We should find a way. We should ensure that ways are found, so that where the offer is available in the school, but they're unable to take advantage of the opportunity because they simply haven't got the financial means within the family, that those families are helped, so that they have that opportunity as well. And I do believe that's a basic matter of social justice in our educational system.

I call on Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Thank you again, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I think John Griffiths did an excellent job of closing the debate and summarising many issues there, so thank you, John, for your comments at the end there today, and thank you to all Members for your contributions in this debate here this afternoon.

I will just go through a few of the points that Members have raised through the proceedings, and in particular the Chairs at the start, in terms of your comments around the recommendations that either I chose to accept or reject or make other comments on. I was pleased to be able to accept a significant number of the recommendations that you made, and that your committees made, but I do hope you appreciate and accept the explanations that I was able to give for those that I wasn't able to accept. I'm genuinely grateful for the work of the committees in scrutinising this Bill into what, I think, could be an even better piece of work if it's able to progress.

I thank you, Minister, for your contribution today as well, and for your early engagement in your new role in the Cabinet as well. I'm grateful also to Jeremy Miles in his previous role, for his openness and open challenge back to me through this process as well. Whilst not always easy to hear, it's always better to hear it straight than it is to go around the houses. I am hopeful for that continued future opportunity to work together on residential outdoor education, especially in relation to things like adventure learning frameworks, support for teachers and their training, and also mechanisms for supporting financially challenged families as well.

I would push back on comments made, Minister, in regard to the financial implications outlined in the Bill. We heard from the Chairman of the Finance Committee that, actually, the RIA, which I outlined in my explanatory memorandum, was actually an example that Welsh Government could look to follow in terms of its level of detail. And I'd also push back slightly on what was described as 'legislative weaknesses'. I believe I've addressed the reasons for the framing of that Bill, and I've been able to accept adjustments and I've accepted future amendments if the Bill is able to proceed as well.

As for other Members, in your contributions, I'm certainly grateful for what was said. Peter Fox, you outlined the benefits of outdoor education, and part of your role in a previous life, as it were, of making sure that those centres were able to stay open for those young people because you appreciated the benefits they made. You also challenged us, as a Senedd, to reflect on how we approach Members’ Bills now and in the future, in terms of allowing that progress and allowing that future scrutiny as well. So, thank you.

Heledd Fychan, you highlighted the economic benefits to Wales of a Bill like this, and I hope you have been able to see my acceptance of many of the points you've raised throughout this time, around the cultural and language benefits of a Bill like this. Yes, there may be more strength that could be added to this, but I absolutely accept the comments you’ve made over recent months on how this could be strengthened even further. Laura Anne Jones, you were able to highlight how a Bill like this is creating inclusiveness for people, and actually helps to support the closing of the attainment gap for young people—a really important point.

Carolyn Thomas, thank you for the contribution you made, and the connection you highlighted between children connecting with nature at such a young age and then being able to carry that through into adulthood. As you said, if children under the age of 12 have that connection, the likelihood of them carrying on for the long term is significant. You clearly raised concerns about the cost of the Bill, and that is a challenge. Interestingly, it's about the same amount of money every year as it would cost for 36 more politicians in this place, which you seem able to support. But there are cross-portfolio benefits of this Bill, and I don't think it's beyond the wit of the Cabinet to be able to get their heads together to understand how a cross-portfolio benefit could be funded through this place as well.

Gareth Davies was able to acknowledge the mental health benefits of the Bill. There's certainly a huge amount to be explored of those benefits if the Bill is able to proceed. And then, to come back full circle, John Griffiths, thank you again for your closing remarks. Consistency is really important across Wales for our young people. It can't be a postcode lottery when it comes to education, and this Bill seeks to end that postcode lottery. And as you said, these are not just powerful educational experiences; these are powerful experiences for young people who perhaps aren't able to have the experiences that many of us may take for granted throughout childhood—the social interactions, and a time of being away, perhaps, from the place that you normally call home. So, thank you for that contribution as well.

I'll close my remarks there, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful for the debates here this afternoon. I look forward to the vote later on, and hopefully we'll have a full suite of support from the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I have heard objection, and therefore I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.