The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan.

The next item is a debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report 2022-23, and I call on the Minister for the Welsh language to move the motion. Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM8463 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Welsh Language Commissioner’s Annual Report 2022-23.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to open this debate today and to ask you to note the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report for the financial year 2022-23.

The report takes us on a journey through the varied work of the commissioner over the reporting period. It notes the highlights of what has been achieved in areas such as ensuring fairness and rights for Welsh speakers, influencing legislation and policy, increasing use of the Welsh language in private organisations and charities, and the work on place names.

It's good to see real examples in the report of Welsh language services that have improved thanks to the intervention and support of the commissioner, for example, improving telephone services by county councils, bodies' websites and awareness of the Welsh language in the health sector. I'm pleased that the commissioner's work of regulating standards is making a difference and is providing more opportunities for people to use the Welsh language.

The annual report also lists work that has been done to influence policy, and the role that the commissioner plays in that regard is important. I'm grateful to her for responding to consultations on policies and new Bills to remind us in the Government of what we can do to assist the Welsh language to prosper across our whole body of work. It's important that we are reminded that we need to mainstream considerations of 'Cymraeg 2050' from the outset in developing policy. The input of the commissioner in developing legislation such as the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 and the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 has led to positive improvements for the benefit of the Welsh language.

I am proud of the progress that we've made on the Welsh language in the past year. We launched a consultation on a White Paper for proposals for the Welsh education Bill, which is a core part of implementing our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. The new Welsh in education strategic plans of local authorities became operational. We invested in late immersion provision to provide an opportunity for more children to become part of our Welsh language education system. The Welsh in education workforce plan was published. We funded a pilot project to support local authorities in the south-east to promote Welsh-medium education. We've also funded the Urdd to re-establish the youth theatre. We published a new 'More than just words'. We published the Welsh communities housing plan, which relates to housing policy, community development, the economy and linguistic planning. The Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities was launched, and we also invested in a variety of community projects through the Perthyn programme.

In looking to the future, we will implement the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru and bring more organisations under the auspices of the standards, turning next to public organisations that don't currently come under the standards, and housing associations. 

The commission has already achieved a great deal of work with businesses and charities. Eighty-six organisations have joined the Welsh Offer scheme, and 190 people have attended training or workshops that were held by the commissioner's office.

In looking to the future, we, of course, find ourselves in a challenging financial situation. The commissioner, like her fellow commissioners and a number of other public bodies, have had to share that burden. The budget of every commissioner has received a 5 per cent cut for the next financial year, 2024-25. I have discussed the implications of this with the commissioner and I am confident that this cut won't affect her ability to undertake her core functions: to administer the standards and to safeguard people's right to use the Welsh language. I'll continue my discussions with the commissioner and I'm very grateful to Efa Gruffudd Jones for considering in positive terms how she can respond to the current financial challenges.

Recently, the commissioner has started to review ways of working to ensure that her regulatory work does have the greatest impact. I'm pleased that Efa is looking to develop a more proactive method of co-regulating during 2024. This means working more closely with the bodies that come under the auspices of the standards to identify risks to the provision of Welsh language services and to develop proactive methods to mitigate those risks.

The commissioner has written to every body subject to the standards to note the steps that she will take during 2024 to develop this method of regulating and working more closely with those bodies. I'm sure that this change will ensure that the commissioner continues to regulate effectively, and to build a constructive relationship with the bodies to increase the use of the Welsh language. 

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move the amendment tabled in her name.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan

Add as new points at end of motion:

Notes the Commissioner's work to encourage the use of Welsh by organisations in the private sector such as the banking sector on a non-statutory basis.

Agrees that banks should be subject to statutory Welsh language standards.

Amendment 1 moved.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. Clearly, we're focusing on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report, but it's good to be reminded of those things in the co-operation agreement, and there is reference in this report to those. 

I would like to start by paying tribute to the commissioner and the active team of staff that she has. I think the fact that there have been 837 interventions—that's a significant number. And in terms of the ambitions that we have in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050', increasing usage, increasing people's rights, this is extremely important and does demonstrate the value of this work.

Of course, in presenting her report, she's also reflecting on the difficult time with the loss of Aled Roberts and the interim period in the office, and the very conscientious work of Gwenith Price until Efa Gruffudd Jones's appointment. It has been an extremely difficult time for the commissioner's office in that context, and I do think that we have seen the fruit of exceptionally important labours as the office continues its work.

Of course, we do have to reflect on the fact that there are a number of prominent things that have happened since the publication of this report, and that's why, in looking at the amendment—. Clearly, the news about HSBC came after the publication of the report, but I think it's important to note that recommendation 4 does mention specifically that the objective of targeting banks specifically to increase the use of the Welsh language is an important part of what the commissioner talks about as something that she wants to focus on in looking to the future.

So, hopefully, all parties in this Chamber are agreed on HSBC's decision, that it's disgraceful, and that all parties understand the importance of having those services through the medium of Welsh. It also demonstrates why the standards are so very important, that we can see, with companies that have been so committed and positive in the past, how quickly those services can deteriorate and disappear. And all that rubbish that we heard in terms of there being no use of the service, and so on, well, we have to also promote these services and make it easy for people to choose to use the Welsh language. And I fear, if we don't look towards expanding regulations and standards, then we will see more and more people choosing to cut service levels, which is entirely contrary to the objective that we have, not only in terms of increasing the number of Welsh speakers, but also increasing the use of the Welsh language as a day-to-day language, because there's a real threat here. 

The commissioner, of course, highlights, as the Minister did, the Welsh education Bill, and she says in her foreword that the commissioner's response, as we've heard in evidence sessions, will be highlighting the need to extend Welsh-medium education and opportunities for people to become confident Welsh speakers. So, I know that she and her team will be keeping a very close eye on what we do here, and that's quite right too, that she should be challenging us. There is very important work highlighted in the report in terms of Welsh-medium education and ensuring that local authorities do proceed as they should in terms of securing equity of Welsh-medium provision. And I think the important work that we saw more recently than the period of this annual report with the children's commissioner has been extremely important in terms of demonstrating the inconsistencies there are in terms of learners with additional learning needs, in order to highlight that need for equality, wherever you live in Wales, in relation to the Welsh language. 

You have referred in your response, Minister, to the budget of the Welsh Language Commissioner and that you are still in negotiations with her. Is there any particular risk that you've identified in terms of responding to this, because in terms of the number of interventions and so on, that is something that the commissioner has no control over, in terms of taking court cases forward, and so on? It also strikes me, in looking at the report, how many public bodies the commissioner has to investigate. So, is there any work being done to remind public bodies of their duties in relation to the Welsh language, so that we can reduce the number of complaints that then have to be looked at by the commissioner? It seems a total waste of resources where, in reality, these are public bodies funded by Welsh Government and then the Welsh Language Commissioner has to remind them of their duties. So, what work is ongoing in terms of that?

And in terms of the census result in 2021, what further discussions are you having with the commissioner's office to address some of those extremely concerning results? The role in terms of promotion, not just regulation, is very important, and I think that if we can release some of the commissioner's resources to focus on promotion too, then that would be a positive development. But all our public bodies need to commit, and not just with fine words, but with action on the Welsh language. 

I'll start my contribution today by thanking Efa Gruffudd Jones for publishing this annual report, her first since undertaking this role on a permanent basis, and the first of many, hopefully.

I'm fortunate, like you, Minister, to be able to use the Welsh language whenever I choose, either during my working hours or socially, but not everyone is as fortunate, and we are all duty bound in this Chamber to continue with our efforts to make Wales a truly bilingual nation. 

Turning to the content of the report, it's clear that the commissioner's office has had a very busy year and has been working hard to promote and safeguard our language. In my response to the previous debate in November 2022, I welcomed the commissioner's contribution to the International Association of Language Commissioners and I would be eager to know whether she has built further on that relationship, and what good practice was gleaned from that engagement.

In an evidence session to a Senedd committee, the new commissioner stated that,

'the people of Wales want to do more than just deal with public authorities through the medium of Welsh.'

I'd like to know what success there's been in delivering this ambition since those words were spoken in October 2022.

I strongly believe that we should be embracing new technology to promote and learn the language. The Duolingo app—and we've discussed this in the Chamber before—is an excellent case study. Although it's disappointing to hear that the app won't be updating the Welsh language course, it was good to see such a response to the decision taken by Duolingo. In 2020, Welsh was the ninth most popular language amongst app users in the UK. And the current figures show that 658,000 people are learning Welsh through that app, and that 2 million and more have used that course since it was launched. Now, even more encouraging, the Welsh course is used by people in all corners of the world who are eager to learn the Welsh language. A great example of the reach of our language.

In terms of technology, I wanted to note an issue that was raised in the report relating to the use of Welsh in court cases. With online court cases and tribunals becoming far more common, I was disappointed to hear that it was only in face-to-face cases that those wishing to use the Welsh language in court could do so, and that it's not possible to do so remotely. So, what discussion is the Welsh Government having with the Ministry of Justice to tackle this inconsistency?

In terms of market research undertaken by the commissioner, it was good to see that 80 per cent of Welsh speakers questioned believed that opportunities to use the Welsh language with public bodies were either increasing or had remained at the same level. Eighty-two per cent were of the view that they could deal with organisations through the medium of Welsh if they chose to do so. These figures are very encouraging, and I would like to know how the Welsh Government intends to support those remaining public bodies that don't provide the people of Wales with equal opportunities.

There's only so much that the Welsh Language Commissioner can do in aiming towards the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050'. The Welsh Government has to redouble its efforts to increase the number of Welsh speakers. Earlier this month, I helped to launch the 'Wales YFC Impact Report' in the Senedd, promoting the important role that the organisation plays in our nation. The report emphasised the fact that 60 per cent of the membership were Welsh speakers, and many had learned the language through the YFC. The quote in the impact report that summarises the contribution of the YFC for me is,

'It gives young people the chance to use the Welsh language in lots of different ways such as drama. They might not have thought about doing an activity in Welsh outside of YFC, it's completely different to learning Welsh at school.'

Now we need to develop different pathways for the language as we move forward if we are to make progress towards the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050'. So, how is the Welsh Government supporting organisations such as the YFC to support the growth of the language?

And finally, we will be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendment. The attitude of HSBC in announcing that they were to cease to provide a Welsh language helpline was disgraceful. For me, it showed a lack of respect towards their Welsh-speaking customers and the language itself, and was damaging to the reputation of the company here in Wales. The commissioner and her predecessors have worked hard to encourage the use of the Welsh language through non-statutory means. Perhaps now is the time for banks to be subject to Welsh language standards. I would welcome your view on that, Minister.

The Welsh language and culture are intertwined, so any changes to the school calendar that impact negatively on important cultural events, such as the Royal Welsh or the Eisteddfod, will also have a negative impact on the Welsh language and culture. So, I encourage the Minister not to proceed with these changes.

I welcome this report and note the hard work that has been undertaken. We are on a path—the right path, hopefully—but there are many barriers that remain if we are to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, where people are free to converse in their language of choice in a fully bilingual nation. Thank you, Llywydd.  

Recent examples demonstrate clearly why the statutory powers of the Welsh Language Commissioner need to extend to include the private sector, starting with the banks. The appalling attitude of HSBC demonstrates clearly why we can't depend on goodwill to respect the rights of Welsh speakers.

At the end of the 1970s, I was a member of the Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg senedd. We campaigned to get large corporations—banks and breweries—to operate bilingually. At that time, the Midland Bank was used as an example of good practice. The Midland Bank is HSBC these days, of course, but there came a great change.

I have a series of e-mails that underline the negative, apathetic and, indeed, insulting attitude of today's HSBC towards the Welsh language.

'Whilst I understand this decision is difficult, it is final',

were the words of HSBC to me on 10 November. Then, they ignored a further attempt on my part to reason with the bank. I am still awaiting a response to an e-mail on 16 November. From now on, customers who want to carry out their business through the Welsh language will have to wait over three days to do that. Overnight, the service was destroyed—a service that led the way for a time.

I want to refer to a second example of why we need to extend the standards, which is Toni Schiavone's campaign to receive a Welsh language parking ticket from One Parking Solution. Once again, the response is arrogant and insulting. Why do Welsh speakers have to continue to campaign and demand to have services through the medium of Welsh? It's about time that the fundamental rights of Welsh speakers should be respected by being placed on a statutory footing in all aspects of life.

The amendment put forward by Plaid Cymru today offers a way to start by making the banks subject to the statutory Welsh language standards. I look forward to hearing the Minister's views on this, and I am very pleased that the Conservatives are going to be supporting our amendment today. Thank you.

The Minister now to reply.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you all for your contributions. More than one Member has asked me to comment on the amendment, so just to say that I agree that it's a contemptuous attitude taken by HSBC, and I agree entirely with the words of Siân Gwenllian on the change that there has been since the days of Midland Bank, which was a glittering example of how to behave in an inclusive and respectful manner towards the Welsh language. So, I share those feelings. I have written to the heads of all of the major banks. So, I will place that letter in the Library so that everyone has access to it. The reason that we won't be supporting the amendment is that it's not part of the Government's legislative programme. Of course, we have agreed a programme of activity with Plaid Cymru that prioritised those issues that we feel jointly will make the most difference to most people. So, that's why we won't be supporting the amendment this afternoon.

Heledd Fychan asked a question on the impact in terms of the budget on the commissioner's ability to regulate. Our understanding, from our discussions with the commissioner, is that that isn't expected to have an impact, as the Member will know. In terms of court cases and tribunals, as there is no reserve held by any of the commissioners now, there is a specific arrangement in place to address those issues should they arise. That isn't going to change, despite the cut in funding.

Heledd Fychan also asked what the intentions are in terms of working with public bodies to ensure that they understand their responsibilities to reduce the regulatory burden felt by the commissioner. That is, of course, at the heart of what the commissioner is trying to do in creating that relationship, which is more proactive, and a relationship that actually highlights the duties of these bodies before things go wrong, rather than dealing with issues after they arise.

Sam Kurtz asked a number of questions about technology. Just to say about Duolingo, I agree entirely with the point that he makes, but, in general, I would be surprised if 99 per cent of the people who use the app realised that there was a difference. So, we do need to take some comfort from that. It's not great, but the Welsh language is treated differently from the major languages, but this is part of a broader programme by Duolingo. In terms of the Welsh language, one of the encouraging things, I thought, was Duolingo's response to the campaign by Welsh speakers. They hadn't seen anything of the like before, so it does demonstrate the passion for learning Welsh. We will have more to say on technology and the use of interpretation in Teams, in due course. There are some developments there that I'm sure will be welcomed.

Everyone has a role to play, Llywydd, in protecting the Welsh language and working towards the targets of  'Cymraeg 2050', and I'm sure that this report shows that the commissioner is playing a  central role in that. Efa, in her first full year, has stated clearly what her priorities are, and people are at the heart of her vision, including ensuring that young people are aware of the opportunities that they have to use the Welsh language, and that people have every opportunity to use the language as they use key services, such as health services. She is eager to listen to what organisations and individuals have to say about the Welsh language, and is determined to encourage organisations and individuals to work together to ensure a prosperous future for the language. 

To respond to Heledd Fychan's point, in looking to the future, despite the challenges of the census results, the narrative around the Welsh language has certainly shifted and I think the support is greater than ever for the language. The data, of course, was disappointing, and we do need to capture that energy and collaborate in order to make a difference for the Welsh language. So, let us continue to do that together on our journey towards a million Welsh speakers and doubling daily use of the language. And I would urge you, therefore, to note this annual report formally, and I look forward to another year of collaboration with the Welsh Language Commissioner.

The proposal is to agree the amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection and, therefore, we will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We will now discuss the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill and also the financial resolution in respect of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions under items 8 and 9 will be grouped for debate but with separate votes.