We'll move on to item 4, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change, a white paper for a proposed Bill on environmental principles, environmental governance and biodiversity targets, and I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I've published our white paper on establishing environmental principles, strengthening environmental governance and introducing biodiversity targets for a greener Wales. This White Paper sets out proposals to introduce a Bill into the Senedd that will embed environmental principles into Welsh law, ensuring there is no drop in environmental quality or standards following our departure from the European Union. It will strengthen environmental governance in Wales by establishing a new body to oversee implementation and compliance with environmental law by Welsh public authorities. And, finally, it will introduce a new approach towards biodiversity targets to combat the ongoing nature emergency.

The proposals reflect our commitment towards a greener Wales to tackle climate change and the nature emergency, as set out in our programme for government. The proposals have been developed as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. Here in Wales, we have responded to the climate and nature emergency through our programme for government. We have prioritised reform of agricultural support and introduced new clean air legislation. We have progressed implementation of a new net-zero target and set out a pathway to delivery. We have created new grants for nature restoration, radically redirected transport expenditure, made planning reforms and have supported investments in meeting water quality targets.

We have rightly prioritised active reform to support the environment, and the proposals in the White Paper published today will secure these essential reforms by strengthening our overarching governance framework. In doing so, we will ensure public authorities in Wales comply with environmental law according to the expectations of people in Wales. This approach is not simply an exercise in replacing structures and legislation that were in place whilst we were a member of the European Union; our approach is tailored to the Welsh context. We will be placing a duty on Welsh Ministers not only to give due regard to the EU-derived environmental principles, but to set out in statutory guidance exactly how these principles will be regarded during the development of policy.

The governance body will similarly reflect Wales’s priorities. The body will work in a spirit of collaboration and take an escalatory approach, working with Welsh public authorities to put things right. However, where this is not possible, the body will be rightly empowered to take effective enforcement action to ensure compliance. In publishing these proposals, I would like to acknowledge the work of the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales, Dr Nerys Llewelyn Jones. The IEPAW has, and continues to, carry out a valuable role in relation to the functioning of environmental law in Wales, and the White Paper sets out proposals that will build on the important work of the IEPAW.

In December 2022, I set out our ambitions for addressing the nature emergency on the world stage at COP15 in Montreal. As part of our response to the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework, I committed to setting ambitious nature targets to protect and restore biodiversity. Recognising the need for sustained and long-term action to deliver the transformative change needed, the White Paper introduces a strategic nature recovery framework to protect and restore biodiversity, as well as providing increased accountability and transparency. This includes statutory biodiversity targets, comprising a headline nature positive target to be detailed in the Bill, and a suite of supporting biodiversity targets to be set in secondary legislation. We anticipate that some of these will be new targets, whilst others will align with existing environmental targets that have already been designed to support reducing pressure on ecosystems and increasing nature restoration. Once established, we would seek the input of the new governance body in identifying new targets that can most effectively drive additional positive progress on nature. 

The White Paper proposes the Welsh Government will produce a nature recovery strategy that sets out the Welsh Government’s long-term vision for a nature positive Wales, and a nature recovery action plan, which will detail the shorter term actions needed to achieve the statutory biodiversity targets. Achieving this ambition will require a Wales-wide approach. That is why I am also proposing local nature recovery plans to be produced by Welsh public authorities. These will outline priorities and action at the local level, whilst supporting regional collaboration. 

This approach complements our broader focus on a resilient Wales, the scope of which encompasses the whole of Wales, not only designated protected sites. Our ambitions are to ensure protected sites are maintained and enhanced, to avoid unnecessary environmental damage right across Wales and undertake proactive restoration of nature in areas where it has been degraded. Dirprwy Lywydd, I am very grateful for the help and energy of all the stakeholders who have come together to support this work to date, and we will continue these detailed discussions as we refine our policy proposals and bring forward legislation.

This Government's approach to the environment is rooted in social justice. Our obligations under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 are to ensure that we meet the needs of the people of Wales today in a way that does not deprive future generations of their ability to meet theirs. In this way, conserving natural resources and sharing the benefits of them is a matter of fairness. The proposals published today are designed to help shape the agenda of public services in Wales, including how they work together with communities and businesses to secure a more sustainable relationship with our natural world. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, for this statement. The white paper is certainly a step in the right direction, because it does put nature, the environment and biodiversity at the forefront of our minds in terms of legislation. However, could you solve a little problem for me, Minister? Could you advise as to why this White Paper has not yet been published, according to the Library? Once I know you're coming forward with statements, we normally get the paper and read it, so that we can actually raise any concerns, and I'm struggling to find it.

We need to embed our response to the climate and nature emergency in everything we do. During the legislative process of the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill, a Majority of this Senedd passed over our amendments, which would have pushed forward the creation of an environmental governance body for Wales. This is already long overdue and has been requested through our environment and climate change committee so many times. And it gets worse: I heard in our committee last week that there is now even some uncertainty as to when regulations required as a consequence of that Act will come forward. 

Despite the biodiversity deep-dive resulting in the adoption of the aim of the protection of 30 per cent of land and sea, you have still not taken up the opportunity to put this on a statutory footing. Of course, you have invested £15 million in the Nature Networks programme, to protect Wales's diverse natural habitats, from salt marshes and estuaries to forests and grasslands, and I'm really, really grateful to you for doing that, and it's something that we're both keen to ensure happens, but you are missing a real opportunity to go further, especially in the marine environment.

There are specific projects, as you know, which are exciting, such as salt marsh work in Carmarthenshire, the Conwy estuary and the Severn, and sea cliffs on the Llŷn peninsula and Ynys Môn, but these are not seeing change nationwide. For example, I have previously called for the creation of a national blue carbon recovery plan for Wales, designed to maintain and enhance our invaluable marine blue carbon habitat. That would have targets set for all of Wales, including on marine sediments, seagrass, salt marshes, subtidal sedimentary habitats and shellfish. Despite the Senedd backing our legislative proposals to have a national marine development plan for Wales, which would help to create certainty for all parties and avoid any confrontation at the application stage, because the sea bed could then be mapped out, like we do with local development plans—it's that kind of action we're looking for you to take.

I have personally written to you and I've met with your officials to discuss ways we can also integrate renewable energy with marine nature recovery at the same time. Belgian offshore windfarms offer the unique environment to restore oyster reefs, and I love the work that you're already helping to support on this. The project, known as UNITED, focuses on synergies between offshore wind production and flat oyster aquaculture and restoration. Bottom fishing is not allowed in wind parks, which prevents reef damage. I was just wondering whether you would just say something today on bottom fishing. The hard substrate used as scour protection around wind turbines actually is ideal for oyster larvae to settle and initiate natural reefs. It would be really good if we could follow that lead here in Wales.

I would really like to see a statement or something from you today about whether you are essentially blocking renewable energy projects on or near our peatland and the reasons for that. I have written to you with evidence believing that both can co-exist and that the wording of chapter 6 of 'Planning Policy Wales' could be changed so that there is this flexibility. This is an area of policy that I know we are both particularly interested in, so I look forward to working with you and making that joint dive that you've invited me to in a seagrass meadow.

So, could you please clarify the timeline for the White Paper to become a draft Bill before this Senedd and explain why some of the targets will be set in secondary legislation, rather than primary, because we're already seeing now, with the infrastructure Bill coming through, how over-reliant it is on secondary legislation, and that has been described to us as not satisfactory? Could you give an indication as to when we should expect to have an environmental governance body up and running? Would you use the legislation as a means of creating a legal duty for the Welsh Government to plan and create a national marine development plan, a spatial one, outline what progress has been made so far on achieving the 30:30 aim, and explain what consideration has been given to the considerable pressures within public authorities before expecting them to produce local nature recovery plans? Diolch.

Thank you, Janet. I don't know if you managed to attend the technical briefings that were offered this morning. E-mails did go out with copies of the white paper there, apologies if you didn't get one, and it's been published today, so that's why it's not in the Library yet. There's obviously then an opportunity to put all the points you've made about what you'd like to see included in the targets, and not included in the targets, as part of the consultation process. I'm sure you'll respond to it.

There are a number of things that you raised that we probably would like to see a target for. The targets are going to be set out in secondary legislation, much as the clean air Act was structured, so we'll have the headline global biodiversity goal in it, the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity goals for 30 per cent, but we're being very specific: 30 per cent of our land, our rivers and our sea. That's not just 30 per cent of everything, because it does actually work out differently, if you do it like that.

The whole point of this is to set up the governance body to make sure that we then do what we say we'll do, but also to give us advice on those targets as the thing progresses. That would include the best way to do restorations, or the percentage of restorations we might do, and the difficulties of what goes with what, so the windfarm thing that you point out. Actually, as you also rightly pointed out, marine windfarms can be very useful in terms of preventing bottom trawling and behaving as nurseries for various species and so on. So, the point of this process is that this is the White Paper, the consultation on which will lead to the Bill. It will feed into the Bill. The Bill is already under way. It takes a good year to get a Bill in shape to come to the committee, especially with the translation process and the equivalency checks and all the rest of it. So, this is the beginning of that Bill making its passage through the Senedd.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would say that we all should encourage as many people as possible in all of our constituencies right across Wales—I don't mean just our political constituencies, I mean our constituencies of communities and all the rest of it—to make sure that we get as much response as possible. It is directly coming out of the deep-dive work, so the structure of it has directly come out of the stakeholder work that we did. I'm not expecting any of our major stakeholders to have a real show-stopper response to this, but we are expecting, of course, nuances around how the thing should be structured and so on. 

Minister, I welcome this statement. There is a genuine need for urgent legislation on this issue. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss it, of course, because now is our opportunity to close a gap that exists in our nation’s environmental protections. I welcome the determination of the Government to respond to the nature emergency. We, as a party, of course, held the debate to declare the nature emergency. It was an important moment, but there is no momentum behind a moment unless action follows. So, now is the time for that action, and I welcome that.

There is a great deal to welcome regarding the content of the white paper. The overall target is important, and establishing independent environmental governance arrangements will, again, be another significant moment. Of course, we've been waiting too long for this—the climate change committee has looked at this already—and we will need to ensure that the arrangements not only work well, but that the public understand them. So, what assurance can you give us about your engagement with the public, to ensure that they are more aware of where to turn to access advice and help, particularly if there is confusion regarding the difference between this body and NRW?

In terms of the timing and implementation—you've had questions on this already—could you confirm that every effort will be made by the Government to avoid further delay unless such delay is unavoidable, please? Of course, I welcome the targets, although they will be set in secondary legislation. But I would like to understand more about the methodology that will be applied to set and monitor the targets. I know that that information might not be available at present, but when it is available, will it be made public, please?

On the effectiveness of the regulatory body, what enforcement powers will that body have, again, as compared to NRW? Because there are problems in terms of NRW’s capacity for enforcement action when the rules are breached, as with sewage releases in our rivers, for example. What assurance will there be that this body will not suffer that same fate? And finally, how will you ensure the independence of this body from the Government?

So, quite a number of questions there, but I certainly welcome this development. I look forward to working together and to seeing this body being scrutinised, of course, so that all of our concerns about the natural world are responded to and that wildlife is protected. And I’d like to echo your words in thanking Nerys and everyone who’s been working with her on the important work that they have been doing in that interim period. Thank you.

Yes, diolch yn fawr, Delyth. You make a number of very good points, of course. So, it is a significant moment, I think, and it is an absolute fact that we're the last of the nations to do this. However, I do honestly think this is a chance to leapfrog the other nations, so we will go from last to first, because we're able now to learn from the problems and difficulties that have been in both the English and Scottish models. Officials there have been very happy to share with us things they wished they'd done or hadn't done or whatever, and to learn from the things that they've done well, and we've been able to pick up that as well. So, I think we will end up having the best of that, because we've been able to pick up a lot of what's been learned, and, of course, I can't say often enough how well Nerys and her team have done.

I should apologise in public: I had a horrible virus that all of you may be familiar with last week, so I was confined to quarters, and it meant I couldn't meet her in person as I'd planned to do. It was fantastic to get a negative result on Saturday and be released. [Interruption.] Well, exactly. But it was a shame not to have been able to. I hope to be able to rearrange that meeting.

But her team's expertise has been invaluable in addressing some of the issues around resource. You know we've put more resource into her team, for example. And of course, when the Bill does come in front of the committees, it will come with a complete financial and regulatory impact assessment associated with it, and in the budget scrutiny in committees, I've been very plain that we've protected the legislation budgets in order to be able to get the legislation through, in order for that not to become one of the issues, for obvious reasons.

The interface will be an interesting one; it's something that we will get more out of in the consultation, and it's something that the committees will want to have a look at. But, broadly, this is not a regulatory authority; this is an authority that gives guidance to public authorities on how to set the targets and monitor and make sure they do them. We would expect a regulatory breach to go across to NRW, but we will need to work on the edges of that and we will expect the organisations to work collaboratively with one another, so that we don't have a complex landscape. You're right to highlight how will members of the public understand that, and part of the duty of the governance body will be to make sure, in the same way the commissioners do, that its own work is understood.

In fact, we've looked very hard at the Welsh language Commissioner's office structure in looking at the proposals here, which I'm sure you know already are for a commission rather than a commissioner, because we expect to need a range of different scientific expertise across the commission, but, of course, with a chair that would become the focal person, if you like, because I do think that's important.

We think it's very important that it is independent of the Welsh Government, that it holds our feet to the fire. One of the discussions that will occur as part of this consultation is to what extent should other public bodies be included in the Act. There are pros and cons to that, and I'm sure that will be part of the consultation. So, should individual local authorities be specifically bound by it, or should they be done as regional consortia, or what is the structure of that? The committees will take, I'm sure, an interest in that and be able to assist us with that. That's very much part of what the consultation is about.

The last bit is just to say that we haven't got any room for slippage here. We want to make sure the committee does its work well, and therefore we have to get it into the committee in the slot that's been identified. And it's the second-to-last Bill to go through the Senedd in this Senedd term, so slippage is not an option, and we have to get this right. It's why the consultation needs to be thorough, we need to make it land properly, and then the results of that consultation need to feed into the drafting so that we can all be reassured that we're making the best law we can.

I very much welcome the white paper, Minister, and it's very good to hear you say that although we are in a relatively weak position at the moment in terms of our governance structures and lack of targets and other very important elements of protecting our nature and our biodiversity, we will leap ahead, as it were, in terms of other parts of the UK, because obviously that's where everybody within this Chamber, I think, would like to see our country placed. Minister, would you agree that it's very important that we focus on some very good examples in terms of our biodiversity and our environment and the need to protect it and give it these structures and targets for protection, such as the Gwent levels, for example, which I represent part of? There, we have a real focus on these issues, very good buy-in from organisations like the Gwent Wildlife Trust and a huge number of volunteers working day in, day out. And, of course, we have iconic species like the water vole, which I'm very pleased to champion. We need to take the public and groups with us, Minister, and I think we need to focus on areas that enable us to do that.

I couldn't agree more with you, John. I think one of the things that we'll be very interested in doing is making sure that the governance body, in looking at the targets it sets for the various public bodies that are taken up by it, takes into account the citizen science that's very readily available, much of it of the absolute best quality, global standard quality. So, we will certainly be building on that. The purpose of this is to set secondary targets, sometimes across Wales, for species decline or restoration, but actually, sometimes, for very specific areas. I know the Gwent levels is very dear to your heart, but there are other areas like that. I recently visited the Dyfi biosphere, for example, who have a very similar group of volunteers equally determined to make sure that that area stays in that condition, or actually is recovered back to the condition for some parts of it.

We will need to look at geographical targets, pan-species targets and at ecology system targets. That's part of what we want to do and it will be part of what the committees look at in terms of what the secondary legislation is enabled to do. The Bill will need to enable the different kinds of targets that can be set in order to get the kinds of outcomes that you're looking for. I really do think it will set us on a different course as we look to protect those systems. That is very much the green lung, isn't it, of the conurbation of the south-east, and the same can be said of the Dyfi biosphere and, indeed, of Gower, where I happen to live. These things give life to our cities and our planet, and, indeed, to us as humans; it's not just for their own sake. So, I do think that will be very important.

Thank you very much for your work as being both the custodian of combating the climate emergency as well as the biodiversity emergency. I'm very pleased that we are now setting in stone the environmental protection we need moving forward. Clearly, this is going to involve quite a lot of work with your colleague Lesley Griffiths, as the Minister for rural affairs, where public money for public goods is a really important principle of the new sustainable land scheme.

Talking to farmers in Treorchy 10 days ago, it's clear that farmers are often really not aware of the huge value of their peat bogs and places for nature on their farms—both for biodiversity and in financial terms in the future scheme. So, whereas one of the organic farmers who is farming on the edge of Cardiff West was able to tell me, 'I've got 275 species happily co-existing with my cows and sheep', I'm reasonably confident that she's quite unusual in understanding what biodiversity assets she's husbanding. So, how do you envisage this co-construction of these local nature recovery plans to achieve the baseline of biodiversity depletion or wealth that already exists on many farms, so that we know what objectives we're paying for, and how we're able track the outcomes of the public investment specifically designed to improve biodiversity?

My second question is around water pollution. In the climate change committee, we've heard from Glenys Stacey, the chair of the Office for Environmental Protection for England, and, for the time being, Northern Ireland, and she's really clear that the OEP won't rely on fines to enforce the regulations, because the directors of whichever company it is just pass on the fines to the public in their Bills.

Can you conclude now, please?

What levers do you envisage in these regulations for tackling the water pollution that's absolutely one of the key serious issues that we face?

Thank you, Jenny. I'll do that slightly the other way around. The policy intent of the Bill is that oversight of private persons exercising functions of a public nature in Wales that could relate to or impact the environment will be captured. So, the water companies will be captured, and there are others as well; harbour authorities and others will be captured. And so, the Bill will bite on them, and so when they put their infrastructure investment programme to Ofwat, et cetera, they will have to take into account the embedded environmental principles of the Bill. In that way, it drives a different approach to that. It won't solve the problem of the water industry only being funded from its bill payers, which is something the UK Government needs to do, and I hope an incoming Labour Government will do. It is an absolute nonsense that the Government spends money on road intersections but can't spend on water infrastructure because they're allegedly the property of the water company. That's just a nonsense, but it's a not nonsense I can particularly change in this Bill. What I can do is drive a different investment strategy for the market that exists. We will certainly be doing that.

And yes, it absolutely interacts with the sustainable farming scheme. I do think we have a very large number of farmers across Wales who are very well aware of biodiversity. We had a large number of farmers contributing to the biodiversity deep-dive, in fact. I think Members will have heard me telling the tale of the eight-month pregnant young woman farmer showing me her biodiverse farm in between Amroth and Saundersfoot, up a cliff so steep that I could not keep up with her. She was amazing, and the enhancement of the biodiversity on that working farm, and the actual enhancement to their income as a result of that, was quite something to behold. She now has a very healthy next-generation farmer coming along nicely. But she was inspirational, and we had a large number of other farmers on our deep-dive who were absolutely inspirational too. So, I think the combination of reward and imperative from the governance bodies will see a step change in that.

Obviously, the sustainable farming scheme is about an income for farmers as they change those practices, as well as rewards for farmers who are changing faster, and Lesley and I have had a large number of conversations about that interaction. But we can't do this without our landowners coming with us. So, part of what this body will have to do is it will have to look at the interaction of the public duty with the landholdings across Wales. So, in looking at, for example, national parks, it will have to look at what the policy for farming inside the national parks looks like, and make sure that people have sustainable incomes on their farm as we change to a new system. So, it's very much part of what we're doing, and I think it will drive a real change in attitude. It also, of course, goes alongside the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which is globally famous. Everywhere we go as members of the Government, we're asked to comment on how on earth we got the future generations Act through. Perhaps we take it a bit for granted now, but it's seismic in its operation, and I think this new Bill will only enhance that reputation.

And finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Minister, you promised that after COP15 and after the biodiversity deep-dive you would come back to us with something better, more meaningful, more well focused on really positive outcomes for nature, so here we are today. I really welcome the statement and the publication of this white paper with an extremely long environmental name. As part of the consultation, maybe we could look at a short title for the Bill when it comes forward, and my opening gambit is 'nature recovery and environmental governance Bill', so it says on it exactly what it's meant to do. We can do the other stuff and it might be even shorter again.

Could I ask you, Minister, within the proposals coming forward—? I'm going to go to the high level, because we'll dive into the detail, I know. But on the high level, what does this mean for citizens and their ability to see where our approach to nature recovery is working and where it is failing, and how they can then challenge that failure?

Secondly, we talk about this will be taken forward, this governance body working in the spirit of collaboration, taking an escalatory approach, working with public authorities to put things right. Does she agree with me that, actually, let's not put things right after the event, let's put things right in advance, and that's got to be one of the roles of what we're doing here?

Could I ask her, in terms of the targets, which were always the things that were going to be difficult with this—and she said she would come back after COP15 better informed as to where we should shape those targets—will there now be full, detailed, meaningful engagement, not just with the wider citizenry, but also with all of those environmental organisations, as well as farmers and so on, to get those targets absolutely right? Because that is critical.

And finally, on the issue of designated protected sites, this has long been an issue of contention, because as we have climate change, it means those sites change themselves—the habitats change, the species move. So, where are we currently? What will this Bill do in terms of the way we look at protecting our most special sites, but also the fact that climate change is shifting the movement of those sites as well? Lot's more questions to follow, but there's an opening gambit.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Thank you very much, Huw. Bill titles are always an interesting conversation between the office of the legislative counsel, who have a very determined view of what the Bill title should do, and those of us who'd like something slightly more snazzy. But they become known for what they are. So, the clean air Act is not, of course, called 'the clean air Act', but that's what it's now called in common parlance. I suspect we'll have something along those lines. People will respond to the consultation that 'nature positive Bill' is the one that seems very favoured at the moment from a large number of people. But that's where we're going with it, because that's what it will be.

The point here is it's not just about restoration or recovery, it's about being positive about nature in all of its aspects, understanding that without nature, our ecosystems, we can't exist, and that they're pretty fundamental to what we are. It always fascinates me that people just simply do not see that, without the various parts of nature, we couldn't breathe or drink or eat. These things are fundamental to the human race. And you've heard me say before that this isn't about protecting the planet—the planet will go on. It's about protecting humankind on the planet. That's a very different thing. So, I couldn't agree more.

In terms of the targets, the proposed headline nature positive target is that of the global biodiversity framework—so, to reverse the decline in biodiversity with an improvement in the status of species and ecosystems by 2030, and their clear recovery by 2050. That's obviously aimed at driving ambition and actions to tackle both the nature and the climate emergencies, because they're two sides of the same coin. And that business about things moving around is, of course, driven by the climate emergency. So, as we look at being resilient to the climate emergency, as well as trying to prevent some of the more catastrophic changes in the climate, we will, of course, have to have a better attitude towards the hard-edged designated landscapes, which we'll certainly be looking at. And it aligns with the well-being goals of a resilient Wales and recognising the need to protect our natural resources. Let's not forget we've already got that in law in Wales. We do tend to forget that.

As we go through the committee, we will have a discussion about what else needs to be on the face of the Bill and, no doubt, we will have a robust discussion about it, as we did with the clean air Act, because I think there is a balance to be struck between what the Bill says upfront about what we should do and what the governance body will do, and then what we're able to put into secondary legislation that drives forward a constant improvement. As you know, if you put things on the face of the Bill, they tend to get set in stone and become outdated pretty quickly, especially in this area where a lot of science is shifting all the time. So, it will be a task for the committees to work with us to make sure that we get that balance right. I hope we will be able to put some of the secondary stuff in front of the committee, but a lot of that depends on what we can do with our scientists behind the scenes who are working on some of this, and indeed on some of the consultation responses as we get them back. But I think, at the end of this Senedd term, we will have a Bill that we can be rightly proud of on a global stage as well as here at home.

Oh, a different Dirprwy Lywydd is ending the debate.

Thank you, Minister.