Keir Starmer has given a commitment of support to the Gordon Brown report. The Gordon Brown report makes it absolutely clear that there are no powers that, for example, there are in Scotland that Wales cannot also have. What he did do, which I think was very important, was defer specifically to the independent commission on the future of Wales, which will be producing its report, and called that, after that point, there should be constructive engagement on those recommendations. I think that is exactly the correct way forward.

There is, of course, as you say, the constitutional element. The Senedd is the only Parliament in the common law world that we know of that can legislate without the jurisdiction to enforce its own Laws. So, the motion talks specifically about devolution of policing, and we agree, of course, that this is an important element of the devolution that is needed—not just the justice commission, but Silk before it recommended that policing be devolved. I make the point here: all four elected police and crime commissioners in Wales, those with a democratic mandate elected by the people of Wales, support the case for the devolution of policing. I made the case strongly for policing to be devolved when I appeared before the commission on the constitutional future of Wales chaired by Laura McAllister and Rowan Williams, and we are of course waiting with the greatest interest to see what the commission’s views will be.

Our objection to the part of the motion from Plaid Cymru does not stem from the difference about where we’re hoping to get to with regard to justice devolution. Our difference is about how we get there and why, and whilst I agree that we need to formally establish a distinct Welsh jurisdiction and for Welsh policing to become fully accountable to the Senedd, it would be a grave error to try to link this with Plaid Cymru’s position on independence. It is not some sort of stepping stone to independence, it is about the better delivery of justice. Surely it is just common sense that the law that applies in Wales should be formally recognised as the law of Wales, just as the law that applies only to England should be known as the law of England. The notion that law is still the same across the territory of England and Wales is a fiction. That outdated view no longer reflects reality, so recognising where laws actually apply can only have a beneficial impact on the clarity and accessibility of the law, not just for Wales, but also for England.

The second reason we’re asking for an Amendment is because we do not recognise the characterisation that there is some sort of formal process needed to call for justice to be devolved. There is no set process for these things. There are no magic words or incantations that, if spoken correctly to the UK Government, will change the position of the present UK Government. They have their heads in the sand, they are oblivious to reason. For there to be change, there needs to be a change of UK Government and the election of a Labour Government.

There is also an implication in the motion that, somehow, we have never asked for the devolution of justice. That, quite frankly, is somewhat bizarre. This Government has openly and consistently and continually called for the devolution of justice.