Item 7 this afternoon is the LCM on the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill, and I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM8290 Jane Hutt

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm grateful for the work of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and the Equality and Social Justice Committee on this matter and for the reports that they've published. I'm pleased that majorities on both committees broadly agreed with the position that the Government set out in its legislative consent memorandum. And I also note, and have already responded, to the recommendations of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Deputy Llywydd, we know that catcalling, aggressively blocking someone's path, intimidating them and other sex-based harassment in public is a significant problem that impacts very badly on the physical and mental health of many people in Wales. It can negatively impact a person's well-being and the fear of such harassment can lead to adverse impacts on the well-being of a wider group of people. As women and girls are disproportionately the victims of this form of harassment, this can further entrench issues of inequality.

In May 2022, the Office for National Statistics found that 82 per cent of women felt unsafe walking alone after dark in a park or other open space. One in two women aged between 16 and 34 experienced at least one form of harassment in the previous 12 months, with 38 per cent of women aged between 16 and 34 having experienced catcalls, whistles, unwanted sexual comments, jokes, and 25 per cent having felt that they were being followed. People who reported feeling unsafe during the day and after dark had altered their behaviours as a result. To change behaviours, we know that we must confront those committing the abuse; we must support survivors; we must change the culture of misogyny and harassment that feeds the abuse. So, my officials did explore very carefully the option of the Welsh Government bringing forward its own Bill, but it became clear that this would not have been a timely option in this case. And our principles provide that there are circumstances in which it may be sensible and advantageous to seek provision for Wales, which would be within the Senedd’s legislative competence within UK parliamentary Bills with the consent of the Senedd of course.

This is a single-use Bill, in line with our programme for government and our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy. And therefore, our recommendation to consent to this Bill is entirely consistent with those principles in order to ensure that a serious issue is addressed as timely as possible. Therefore, it is right for Wales to be included in this legislation so that people in Wales are not left in a position where they could be considered less safe from the risks of street and public sex-based harassment. However, I also agree with the concerns that have been raised around the commencement of this Bill not being given to Welsh Ministers by the UK Government. The timing of the engagement by UK Government on this Bill was unacceptable, which made attempts to secure commencement powers in Wales extremely difficult, worsened by the limited opportunity to amend the legislation owing to parliamentary processes around private Members’ Bills.

Due to the importance of the issue and not wanting women and girls in Wales to be less safe than in England, we eventually agreed to a memorandum of understanding around commencement of the relevant provisions. This has now been finalised and published. However, Members can rest assured that I also made our position clear and affirmed that this was not to be regarded as a precedent for future Bills. Aside from this issue, the LCM committee reports make clear why this Senedd should support the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill. At its core, the Bill will help ensure the safety of women and girls in Wales, which is a priority for the Welsh Government. I therefore call upon Members of the Senedd to give their consent to this motion. Diolch.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Llywydd. My committee reported on the legislative consent memorandum on the Protection from Sex-based Harassment in Public Bill last week. We asked the Minister to clarify a number of issues before this afternoon’s debate and I thank the Minister for her response yesterday afternoon.

Llywydd, our report focuses on three issues: the Welsh Government’s approach to legislating; the provisions in the Bill that we consider require the Senedd’s consent; and the memorandum of understanding that the Welsh Government has signed with the UK Government on the exercise of the commencement power.

Firstly, the Welsh Government’s own programme for government makes a commitment to,

'Strengthen the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Strategy to include a focus on violence against women in the street and workplace as well as the home.'

That's in the Welsh Government's own programme for government. So, on that basis, we remain unclear as a committee as to why the Welsh Government has not brought forward its own legislation on this matter, given this clear commitment. Let me expand a little bit.

The Welsh Government is aware of our view that, where new legislative opportunities are identified by both the Welsh Government and the UK Government, there is a different way forward: our respective Parliaments could legislate, but in parallel and in co-ordination. So, recommendation 1 in our report asked the Minister to clarify why the Welsh Government has not brought forward its own Bill to create this new offence. This doesn't go to the matter of the policy of the Bill, but it's the process of creating the Bill. The Minister told us that the officials explored the option of the Welsh Government bringing forward its own Bill, but, as she has just explained, that it would not have been a timely option and it would have had detrimental impacts on the delivery of other Bills. So, we thank the Minister for that further response.

Regarding which provisions in the Bill require the Senedd's consent, we agree that the clauses identified in the memorandum require the consent of the Senedd. However, we believe the Senedd's consent should be sought for the whole of clause 4 of the Bill, and not just two subsections within it.

Now, finally, as the Minister has said, the Welsh Government has entered into a memorandum of understanding with the UK Government on the exercise of the commencement power in the Bill. It was signed on 1 June and sent to us on 2 June. Given that the Welsh Government has entered into an agreement with the UK Government on a Bill that is the subject of the legislative consent process, we do welcome the Minister's commitment to provide the Senedd with a copy of that agreement before Members of the Senedd are asked to make a decision on whether to grant legislative consent.

In recommendation No. 2, we asked the Minister to confirm if the Welsh Government sought a power on the face of the Bill for the Welsh Ministers to commence clauses 1 and 3 of the Bill as they apply in Wales before agreeing to enter into an MOU with the UK Government, and the Minister—we're grateful—has confirmed to us that she did indeed write to the UK Government on three occasions to strongly advocate for a power on the face of the Bill for Welsh Ministers—our Welsh Ministers—to commence the relevant provisions here in Wales, but the request was refused, which is disappointing.

In recommendation 3, we asked the Minister to confirm if any discussions have taken place and/or what is the Welsh Government's understanding of what is meant by a 'reasonable time', which appears in the terms of the MOU. The Minister has replied, saying that this would be case specific, depending on individual circumstances, and she does not consider it will give rise to any issues.

So, should the Welsh Ministers propose an alternative commencement date to the one proposed by the Secretary of State, in recommendation 4 we asked the Minister to confirm how a formal dispute resolution process will be engaged should the Welsh Government and the UK Government officials be unable to agree a suitable commencement date. The Minister set out in her response what is set out in the MOU, that officials will seek to agree a date, and we understand that. Our recommendation sought to find out what happens if officials cannot find that compromise position—so, Minister, I don't know whether you can reflect a bit further on that in your closing remarks.

Finally, in recommendation 5, Llywydd, we asked the Minister to explain what action the Welsh Government will take should the Secretary of State decide not to propose a commencement date for clauses 1 and 3 of the Bill. The Minister told us that, if the Bill is not commenced, you will explore further options to legislate for a similar offence in Wales, because sexual harassment in public is indeed one of the priorities of this Government in the programme for government. So, again, Minister, given that the Welsh Government has no control over the commencement of something that is a key priority, perhaps again you could reflect a little on the approach that you've taken in this legislation to that. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. We considered this proposal on 15 May, and we think that the legislation is a practical and efficient opportunity to ensure equal protection from sex-based harassment in public in Wales, given that there is no comparable Senedd Bill planned in the short or medium term, and therefore we felt it was important to support this, as this is a significant issue. It's something that's come up when we've investigated the specific needs of migrant women, who may be subject to exploitation and harassment, and indeed be in a controlling relationship. We have a continuing interest in how we prevent gender-based violence, and we would be keen to know how the new criminal offence will support our non-legislative efforts to deal with sexual harassment in public places, which is a commitment in the Welsh Government's programme for government.

So, one of our Members expressed concern about the principle of a UK Government Bill enacting such legislation, rather than it being generated in Wales, but I think that most of us were strongly of the view that we need to seize the moment for what is a useful Bill to provide protection to people who may otherwise be harassed in public.  

I'd like to thank the Minister for bringing forward this legislative consent memorandum today. As Welsh Conservatives, we support this LCM because we need to do as much as we can to ensure that we protect people from sex-based harassment in public. I and my group support any measures to strengthen the law in this area to ensure that those perpetrators are brought to justice. There is no place in society for any violence against women or anybody in our place of work, or in public, or anywhere in this country.

We recognise that this is a key area of work for the Welsh Government, as we know that it is a programme for government commitment for you. However, we are disappointed that this hasn’t come forward as Welsh Government legislation, because we think it’s very important here that laws are made in the Senedd for Welsh people, and this is a devolved area. We think on these benches that, if we had brought this forward as a Welsh Government Bill, it would have given far more opportunity for those organisations to feed into this, and for Senedd Members here to scrutinise this properly. I do hear your point, Minister, where you said about time and risk to other Bills, but I don’t really accept that, because the Welsh Government have brought forward other Bills through this Senedd on the expedited process, which could have speeded this up to make sure that we did this in parallel with the UK Government.

So, we do support this in principle, but I’d actually like to know what exactly the Welsh Government is going to do in the future to bring forward Welsh legislation in this area, because I think that there is wide-ranging support for a Bill like this, developed in the Senedd, to eradicate sex-based harassment here in Wales, and I think that we should have a Bill on this statute book, made here in the Senedd.

Violence against women is endemic in England and Wales and worldwide. It's worth repeating the shameful, frightening figures at every opportunity, namely that one in three of all women will experience gender-based violence, and 71 per cent of women in the UK have experienced harassment in public, which rises to 86 per cent among women aged between 18 and 24 years of age—86 per cent. Twenty-nine women sit in this Chamber. That means that, statistically speaking, 20 of us have experienced harassment, or will experience harassment, in a public place, based on our gender.

In their response to the consultation on the Bill, Welsh Women’s Aid drew attention to the huge increase in calls related to harassment and stalking to the Live Fear Free helpline—an increase of 229 per cent between January 2021 and June 2022. The scale of the problem is clear, too, in the findings of their 'No Grey Area' report, which stated that four out of five women in Wales have experienced sexual harassment at work, the majority of them having experienced multiple instances of sexual harassment by multiple perpetrators.

In the meeting that I chaired today of the cross-party group on violence against women and children, we heard again about the scale of the problem of sexual harassment in the workplace and on the way to and from work. The term ‘epidemic’ was used to describe the situation. So, it's a huge, major issue, and we must do more to tackle it in Wales. But this legislation is not likely to do this effectively. The most eminent experts in the sector focused on preventing gender-based violence are agreed on this. The justice system is broken to such an extent, according to the End Violence Against Women Coalition, that it will be unable to implement any new legislation. Plan International and Our Streets Now underline that this Bill does not tackle and close the loopholes in the law in terms of sexual harassment in public, and, in omitting unwelcome sexual behaviour from this piece of legislation, there is a danger that other kinds of sexual harassment in public connected to the crime will also be omitted.

Welsh Women’s Aid also highlight that tackling gender-based violence, rather than the element of sex exclusively, should be the focus here, emphasising that sexual harassment in public doesn’t solely happen because of someone’s sex. And this is an important point. Although women suffer disproportionate levels of sexual harassment in public, sexual harassment happens to people as a means of striking fear into them and as a statement of power and control, and that can be for reasons or factors that are in addition to or other than their sex. For example, the Trades Union Congress undertook the first major survey of sexual harassment among LGBT+ people in the workplace, and found that 68 per cent of LGBT+ people had experienced sexual harassment at work. Welsh Women’s Aid therefore believe that these cases would be unlikely to be encompassed by this legislative framework, and Plaid Cymru supports their view that we must tackle all kinds of sexual violence fairly and on the basis of equality, and that legislation should be consistent across all kinds of sexual violence. We also share concern that there is no recognition in the Bill of the harassment faced by survivors of sexual exploitation and harm via the sex industry—violence that often occurs in public places such as cars, public parks and back streets.  

Of course, the fundamental aims of the Bill, namely trying to tackle behaviour that causes such harm and distress, such trauma and risk to thousands upon thousands of women, are to be welcomed. But Plaid Cymru believes that we must take the responsibility and the powers that we need to create legislation that is fit for purpose, a justice system that enables change, and a fairer and more equitable system that focuses on tackling the fundamental causes of crime early on, focusing on prevention and early intervention, and making misogyny a hate crime.  

Plaid Cymru will not be supporting the motion as a matter of principle. In contrast to the other parties in this Chamber, we believe that the Welsh Parliament should legislate for the people of Wales. But, for those of you who disagree with this stance, I encourage you to follow our example by refusing our consent for this Bill for the reasons that I have outlined, which have come from experts in the field.

The Minister for Social Justice to reply. Jane Hutt. 

Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd—thank you to you all for raising such important points in this debate. And in fact, isn't it important that we've got the opportunity to debate this LCM? It's again highlighted the scale of the problem, and it is essential that the level of public harassment and abuse experienced by women and girls is understood, and the harm caused properly recognised. I gave you all the statistics; we've heard again the impact of this on the lives of girls and women. And also, just to reassure Members, our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy is now extended to looking at violence and sexual harassment in the workplace. We have a work stream that is led by Shavanah Taj, alongside someone from the police authority. We also have a work stream on tackling violence in public places, as well as a work stream working with survivors. 

So, many of the points have been raised in terms of what we're continuing to do to work with our specialist services to raise awareness of the inequality and safety issues faced by women and girls, to end all forms of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence for all the people of Wales, working with our partners. But we do see that this legislative opportunity could provide just one further tool in the fight to change behaviour and empower survivors, again, to ensure that we improve practice and instill confidence in survivors to report incidents of abuse and violence when they occur, to hold those who abuse to account.

We'll take on board all of the points that have been raised by the Equality and Social Justice Committee. They will be fed into our revised strategy and the work streams. And also, I have accepted all the recommendations from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. And I think it was important that I did accept all of those recommendations, and I know that there are many questions that we then need to take forward in terms of the points that have been raised. And I will share a copy of the memorandum of understanding, and recognise that, as I said, this is in no way giving any kind of precedent to handling this in terms of the way forward. 

We did explore the option of bringing forward our own Bill, but it wasn't possible for the reasons that I've mentioned. And it goes back to the fact that we do need to provide the same protection in Wales as would be offered to women in England. That's the point. That is why we've made this decision, because we do not want women and girls to be left out in terms of this option, in terms of protection. But I do take into account the points that are being made about learning from our specialist providers and our cross-party group today, of course, in terms of understanding these issues. But I want to ensure that the same protection is offered, and that's why I ask Members to support this LCM and not opt out of this legislative opportunity.

So, we hope the Bill will achieve this tangible and positive impact for women and girls as well as gender-diverse people, to help change outdated attitudes and show that public sex-based harassment will not be tolerated. And if I can assure Members across this Chamber that if, for any reason, a Bill is not commenced—and we have had issues about the commencement, as I outlined in my opening remarks—I will explore further options to legislate in Wales. But I ask Members to give consent to this Bill to improve protection for women and girls and diverse people in Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.