10. Debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report: Making the economy work for people on low incomes

– in the Senedd at 5:36 pm on 18 July 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:36, 18 July 2018

(Translated)

That brings us to our next item, which is a debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report on making the economy work for people on low incomes. I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—John Griffiths.

(Translated)

Motion NDM6771 John Griffiths

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, 'Making the economy work for people on low incomes', which was laid in the Table Office on 23 May 2018.

(Translated)

Motion moved.

Photo of John Griffiths John Griffiths Labour 5:36, 18 July 2018

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m very pleased to open today’s debate on our committee report. I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, either by giving written or oral evidence, but in particular those people who participated in our focus groups. Hearing from them about the challenges of insecure work, low pay and accessing the welfare system really focused our minds and directly influenced our conclusions. Inequality causes great damage to our communities in so many ways, reducing quality of life for everyone, including those who are relatively prosperous. This is increasingly evidenced and acknowledged, and awareness has been raised by publications such as the book The Spirit Level. Wales has particular challenges to improve standards of living, and this report is one strand of the committee's work to help tackle inequality and poverty. We make 23 recommendations in total on a wide range of issues, from the Government’s economic strategy to quality of work and welfare. The Welsh Government accepted six recommendations, accepted 15 in principle and rejected two. 

The response is disappointing in places. In particular, there is a lack of detail or meaningful engagement with the recommendations and the evidence underpinning them. In some areas, Welsh Government feels unable to commit to certain recommendations until the ongoing procurement review is completed. I would ask that the Cabinet Secretary agrees to come back to the committee following the publication of that review with a more detailed response to recommendations 14, 15 and 16 on procurement. There is also the ongoing activity on fair work, which is reflected in the Government's position. Recommendations 18, 20, 21 and 22 are, in effect, passed to the fair work commission for consideration. These recommendations relate to reducing the use of zero-hours contracts, increasing the use of the voluntary living wage and reducing the gender pay gap. As these are all matters that could have a direct impact on the levels of take-home pay for people at the sharp end of the labour market, it is concerning that decisions have been deferred until next year. We will continue to monitor the response to these recommendations and the progress of the fair work commission. As with procurement, we would expect to get detailed responses to our recommendations from Welsh Government once the commission has reported.

Llywydd, throughout our work, there were a number of key policy announcements by Welsh Government that we took into account, in particular the publication of the economic action plan and the employability plan. While broadly welcoming the shift in approach, we shared the concerns from stakeholders that both plans lack clear actions, deadlines and indicators against which performance can be measured. We therefore made recommendation 2, which calls for a single, joined-up implementation plan detailing how the economic action plan and the employability plan will be delivered. The Welsh Government accepted this in principle, stating that it will continue to consider the optimal mechanisms for managing and reporting on delivering, and will publish a progress report on the employability plan in September. It also cites the well-being indicators as a mechanism to ensure consistent measuring. We do not feel that this goes far enough. We are concerned that there is a risk that the good intentions in both these important plans may not be realised without setting clear timescales, deliverables and milestones. It also makes it very difficult for us as Assembly Members to scrutinise the effectiveness of the plans. I would like to receive greater clarity on why this recommendation was not fully accepted. 

Photo of John Griffiths John Griffiths Labour 5:41, 18 July 2018

Closely linked to this are our continuing concerns that the lack of a dedicated tackling poverty strategy will hamper the Welsh Government’s intentions to deliver prosperity for all. Recommendation 1 in this report is a repeat of our recommendation from our Communities First report, calling for such a strategy. Reflecting on the evidence we heard throughout the course of this inquiry, we became even more convinced. We do not accept the Welsh Government’s view that it would prevent a holistic approach to tackling complex issues. It is within the Government’s gift to develop a strategy that takes such a holistic approach. We will continue to make the case.

In exploring the focus on regional economic development within the economic action plan, we acknowledged that communities across Wales face different challenges and opportunities, and that this needs to be reflected in economic development. What works in Carmarthen might not work in Caernarfon. One of the most direct levers available is the placing of good-quality public sector jobs in areas outside Cardiff. We have seen this to an extent, with Welsh Government offices opened in Merthyr Tydfil, Aberystwyth and Llandudno Junction, but we think more could and should be done. We therefore make recommendation 6 that the Welsh Government reviews its location strategy to ensure a better spread of public sector jobs across Wales, and in particular deprived areas. This was accepted in principle, but the accompanying narrative does not engage fully with the recommendation. I ask the Cabinet Secretary to what extent the location strategy will achieve its aims to relocate jobs to those areas in Wales that are set to lose EU structural funding, and whether there are any plans to review the strategy.  

Recommendation 17 called for the Welsh Government to publish the composition, terms of reference and details of meetings of the fair work board. The Government’s response accepted this in principle, stating that these could be made available. Can you please confirm, Cabinet Secretary, whether this information will be published? I have already touched on our recommendations around pay, which are to be considered by the fair work commission. However, there is one further recommendation on pay I would like to seek further clarity on today. Recommendation 19 called on the Welsh Government to develop a broad and wide-reaching campaign to encourage payment of the voluntary living wage. This was accepted in principle, but while details of the actions taken so far to encourage payment were provided, the response does not give a clear answer as to whether a broad-based campaign will be developed. We heard that such a campaign in Scotland had been very positive, and we believe this could be an effective way forward. I would like to seek clarity from the Cabinet Secretary as to whether the Welsh Government will be developing such a campaign.

Llywydd, I now look forward to hearing contributions from across the floor, and the Cabinet Secretary’s response.

Photo of Janet Finch-Saunders Janet Finch-Saunders Conservative 5:45, 18 July 2018

I am pleased to be contributing to this debate today, after the insightful and eye-opening report on poverty in Wales by our committee. As you know, it is our committee's third strand of work on this exceptionally important issue, and the report stands by the need for the Welsh Government to streamline policy and set forth a clear, creative strategy to tackle poverty and to ensure that people in Wales have access to good-quality work and income.

Nearly a quarter of people in Wales live in poverty, and in my own constituency, in Conwy, specifically, 20 per cent of adults between 16 and 64 are unemployed. What is even more worrying is that there has been very little improvement, according to the figures, since 2005. Furthermore, it is the older people in the workforce who routinely get a bad deal. As Prime Cymru stated:

'Two-thirds of the people we work with are saying that they’re being discriminated against because of age in the workforce.'

And the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales report that only 22 per cent of older people leave their jobs willingly, as opposed to being pushed or nudged out is not good reading. This highlights the importance of retraining and employability support, but more so that the Welsh Government employment support schemes target those that are most in need, i.e. people who are already benefiting from UK Government support. As our report highlights, in order to make work for everyone, a joined-up approach is needed to tackling Wales's skills gap, and it is crucial to prevent people who are re-entering the jobs market from getting lost in Government red tape, to ensure that they can access opportunities that enable them to improve themselves, become incentivised and reinvigorated.

Welsh Conservatives would deliver a support scheme in tandem with the UK Government and its own Work Programme, to open up opportunities for those to participate in it, to ensure they can access upskilling and the required training. While I am pleased that the Welsh Government's response to recommendations within the report are largely positive, I am, however, disappointed to note the rejection of setting out and publishing a clear poverty strategy, bringing together the various elements of poverty reduction and establishing definitive performance indicators to make sure it's working, and that it is deliverable.

The auditor general noted, in his correspondence to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday, that on reflection of the many reports stating the systemic problems in Wales that need to be fixed, he himself finds himself both frustrated and increasingly concerned that we have not used devolution as an opportunity for a fundamental rethink. I second this opinion, and would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary might confirm here today how these recommendations in the report are going to be taken forward, and what outcomes we can expect to see over the next 12 months. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru 5:49, 18 July 2018

(Translated)

Here we are, once again, discussing another committee report that’s been given a very disappointing response from Government, with only six of the 23 recommendations being accepted. The unacceptable use of 'accept in principle' is put into place 15 times in the case of this report. Although it’s eight months since the Welsh Government Permanent Secretary stated in a letter to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee that the Welsh Government shouldn’t be using this term 'accept in principle', they do it 15 times in this report.

It’s very disappointing that two important recommendations and completely sensible recommendations are rejected—rejected outright, that is. First of all, recommendation 1, namely to

'strongly recommend that a clear tackling poverty strategy is published, which brings together the many strands of poverty reduction work to help provide clear direction and to help the Assembly scrutinise the Government’s approach.'

That was rejected. It's difficult to believe what is then said in the narrative as an explanation for that rejection. This is what they say:

'We can only effectively respond to the long-term challenge of addressing poverty by joining up everything we do.'

Well, exactly. That's exactly why we need a strategy, to draw all of those strands together under one umbrella. That makes full sense, but it is rejected here, unfortunately.

The other recommendation that is rejected is this one: the committee recommends,

'as part of any consideration of the devolution of powers on the administration of Universal Credit, the Welsh Government undertakes and publishes analysis of the benefits and risks.'

The response again is a rejection. What on earth is wrong with carrying out an analysis—to look at the benefits, to look at the risks and to bring a report forward? And if the analysis demonstrates that there are too many risks, then that will strengthen the Government's case, which opposes even considering the devolution of welfare payments or the work of administering those pay payments. And let's be clear, we are talking about the administration of those payments here. To say something like this—this is what the Government has said in response to this:

'As a matter of principle, we should all be entitled to an equal claim from our welfare state.'

Well, of course we should, but to make such a point and to use it as an argument against devolution is a very dangerous argument to make. One of the merits of devolution, for me, is to enable us in Wales to plough our own furrow if we feel that UK policies are not in keeping with our values, as in this case. We are truly talking about a minor change here—the devolution of administration. It's very disappointing that the Government isn't even willing to study the issue, just to look at it and present a paper to us on the benefits and potential risks. I'm pleased to say that the committee will be looking at this issue. We as a committee will be doing a piece of work to look at how the devolution of parts of the administration of the welfare system has worked in Scotland.

I will conclude on a slightly more positive note. Our committee highlighted the importance of disseminating public sector employment across Wales, and the report does recommend that this should happen more, with the focus on disadvantaged areas. It is crucial that we do disseminate employment from the south-east of Wales. As the Government and other public services consider changing the way that they provide services, as they change location, or in creating new locations for services, it is crucially important that they consider this.

The report covers procurement, and many recommendations were made as to how the economic contract could be used to promote the objectives that are shared here. We are also looking forward to seeing the action plan on reducing the gender pay gap, once the fair work board has published its recommendations. We must realise, I think, that low wages are an equality issue as well as being an economic issue.

I am concluding, but I do believe that this is a very useful and comprehensive report. It does demonstrate how the Welsh Government can do far more, if it chose to, and shows how very small changes to policy could make a major difference to those on low wages in Wales.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 5:54, 18 July 2018

Thanks to the committee Chair for bringing today's debate, and to the people who took part in the inquiry. There are several factors involved in being on a low income, but most of them are connected to a person's employment situation. One of the worrying developments of recent years in Wales, and in the UK generally, is that many people on low incomes are now those who are in full-time employment. This demonstrates that many jobs are poorly paid. Many jobs also, in what we now call the gig economy, do not guarantee a full working week. There are some jobs for which people can turn up for work only to be told that there is no work that day. Then they have to return home. So, we have to deal with the problem that employment law in the UK does allow for zero-hours contracts and similar situations.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 5:55, 18 July 2018

So, we do have problems with the world of work, which today is something of a minefield. Many of today's jobs are just a job, and do not really qualify as being what we would have termed 40 years ago as being a job with prospects. So, I wholeheartedly endorse the committee's recommendation 12, which calls on the Welsh Government to work with employers in the foundational sectors to pilot job ladders within firms to improve career progression within those companies.

Now, I've had quite a lot of jobs in my time—at least 35 of them, when I started totting them up—several of which I was actually sacked from, you may be surprised to hear, or not. But it is disheartening to do a job to the best of your ability and to gradually realise that there is actually no obvious career progression available, however well you perform at the job. The only incentive is to actually keep the job itself, and, of course, in an economy with stagnant wages there is no guarantee that your wage is even going to keep up with inflation. It often annoyed me that managers were brought in from outside companies to manage a work team with no knowledge of the work practices that were going on. I would always favour people being promoted from within the team, wherever possible.

One of the problems we have today is that there are simply too many people entering the job market. This means that wages are kept low and there is no incentive for a company to invest in its own workforce. That lack of investment in its own staff is a key reason why productivity today is worse in the UK than in, for example, Germany. Of course, from our viewpoint in UKIP, the elephant in the room is immigration. If you have a system that allows for hundreds of thousands of immigrants to enter your country every year, then you are allowing employers the opportunity to keep hiring cheap labour. It creates an employers' market. These are the simple rules of supply and demand as applied to the job market.

Of course, the left-wing parties won't agree with me that immigration has any adverse effect upon workers' wages and upon workers' conditions and career progression. I will have to beg to differ with them quite strongly on that point. What we can perhaps agree on is the need for companies to provide a good structure for career progression and agree that the Welsh Government must do what they can to help provide this outcome. So, I agree that we can use things like Welsh Government funding and Welsh Government contracts as a carrot to incentivise companies to foster this kind of job ladder at their firms.

Now, with regard to the subject of Welsh Government and public sector contracts, we do have to be wary of certain loopholes that companies can achieve to get around the rules. For instance, the Welsh Government can bring in rules regarding procurement, as we advocate in recommendation 14, but we have to ensure that the Government looks not just at the principal contractor on a job, and what their employment practices are, but also at the practices of the various subcontractors that the principal contractor brings in to do the actual work. If we don't thoroughly go down the supply chain and look at this properly, then you can have principal contractors crowing at how well they are treating their workers, but knowing full well that their subcontractors have people on zero-hours contracts, for instance.

I remember the old Investors in People certificates that companies used to get in the 1990s and put in a frame cupboard on the wall. It made me laugh when I looked at those certificates at a couple of places I worked at who were really bad employers. So, we have to ensure that getting some kind of Welsh Government mark as being a good employer is not just a fig leaf covering up all sorts of bad practices underneath.

Recommendation 23, which relates to the devolution of universal credit—Siân Gwenllian referred a lot to this in her response, and I broadly agree with her. Now, in UKIP we haven't supported the devolution of welfare payments, or, as Siân calls it, the devolution of the administration of welfare. But we have agreed that the Welsh Government should now publish an analysis of the benefits and risks of this so at least we can have an argument with all the facts transparently before us. This recommendation wasn't saying that we should agree to devolve welfare or the committee would never have agreed to it. It was just a call for the provision of some evidence.

The Welsh Government Ministers have stated in the Chamber in the past that the reason that they opposed the devolution of welfare was because Wales would lose out financially. Plaid have disputed this aspect of their argument. The Welsh Government position now appears to have changed, and they don't mention the financial argument anymore. It's all highly mysterious. I repeat the advice of our recommendation 23, that the Welsh Government now needs to provide us with a benefit and risk analysis to back up what the Ministers have said in the past. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Photo of Jenny Rathbone Jenny Rathbone Labour 6:00, 18 July 2018

I hadn't intended to speak about immigration, but I think Gareth Bennett's remarks require some challenge, because I absolutely don't think that the issues we face in our economy are to do with too many people looking for work. I think it's much more about our attitude towards the people capital that we have and how we deploy it, and in the context of automation that's an extremely important matter.

I absolutely do disagree that unemployment is down to immigration. Without immigration, we would have serious gaps in our national health services—doctors, nurses, radiographers—as well as people working in the animal welfare industry, our vets, our engineers, as well as propping up the tourism and agricultural industry. This we will find out if—. I hope it doesn't happen, but if the UK Government completely messes up the negotiations with Europe, we'll suddenly find we have massive gaps in keeping our economy running and our services running. I just think it's completely misplaced to think that the challenges that people face getting appropriate work are down to immigrants. I think that they absolutely enhance the workforce and give us a better quality of services. The issue we have to address, though, is how to ensure that gangmasters aren't controlling people and exploiting them.

Last week, I and several Members met a delegation from the Basque Country, led by the President of the Basque Government. I know I'm not the only person who's been to the Basque Country to look at the Mondragon industries, which have been so successful in creating socially useful, extremely productive and successful industries. But, I do recall on a visit I had about two years ago that one statistic stuck in my mind, which is that, of all the employees that they have, they've never actually sacked anybody, because their human resources policies are so fine-tuned to the individual needs of people who might have mental health needs or training needs that they never need to let people go. They may need to encourage them to move to shift their career pattern, but that's a completely different matter. So, there's an enormous amount we could learn from Mondragon University to promote ethical employment practices across our businesses—private and public. 

On the delegation, there were several people, including the Minister for economy. I was particularly interested in her description of the visit that Lesley Griffiths undertook to the Basque Country in June to look at their approach to the food industry, which, of course, is one of the four elements of the Welsh Government's foundational economy. I was particularly interested in the Basque approach to food, which is not just about promoting and marketing food for the tourism market and high-class restaurants that serve incomers. They also focus on the nutritional needs of their whole nation, with a particular interest in the fresh nutritious food required for key groups, namely children and elderly people—pensioners, both in residential homes and in their own homes—to ensure that they eat correctly, and also people with compromised health. She mentioned cancer and diabetes. I would add obesity, but I rather suspect that the Basque Country doesn't have the levels of obesity that we do in this country.

So, I think, looking at the food industry and the recommendations that the Government is only accepting in principle, we know that the food industry is a low-wage sector, considerably reliant on European immigrants to fill gaps in the workforce that other people don't want to fill because the wages are low and the working conditions quite challenging. But we need to note that they are crucial to the harvesting of fruit and vegetables, looking after animals in abattoirs, in the processing factories—in fact, in every aspect of the food chain. We need to worry about how we're going to replace them were these European immigrants to disappear.

So, I was concerned that many of the Government's recommendations to what is admittedly a long report are recommendations in principle. You talk about enabling plans, but not a lot of detail about how you're going to carry out some of the concerns that we have about the systematic discrimination against women, for example, either before or after they have children. In the Cabinet Secretary's response, I hope he can tell us what the outcomes were of the symposium on 13 July that is mentioned in a couple of your answers, or the Government's response.   

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:06, 18 July 2018

(Translated)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport to contribute to the debate—Ken Skates

Photo of Ken Skates Ken Skates Labour

Diolch, Llywydd, and can I start by expressing my appreciation to all Members who have spoken today, and to all members of the committee for an insightful report? In particular, can I thank the Chair for leading on the work of the committee? 

I think it rightly notes that whilst not all the levers to bring about any significant change in levels of poverty sit with the Welsh Government, particularly powers over the welfare system, we must do all we can to ensure that people in Wales have access to good quality work that provides a decent income. Our national strategy, 'Prosperity for All', provides clear and consistent frameworks for our whole-Government approach to increasing prosperity and addressing the root causes of poverty in a more effective and joined-up way than in the past. This is supported, of course, by our economic action plan, the employability plan, which work in tandem to increase wealth and well-being, whilst also reducing inequalities in both. 

Now, Llywydd, at the heart of the economic action plan is a new relationship between Government and business, based on the principle of public investment with a social purpose, a something-for-something relationship between business and Government. We recognise that helping people into work is only part of the solution in terms of the challenge that tackling poverty presents. We need to work with employers to improve the quality of jobs, and to support people to remain in and progress in work, just as Jenny Rathbone has indicated. The new economic contract commits the Welsh Government to investing in economic growth, but with an expectation that the investment will also support the principle of fair work and decent, secure and rewarding employment. We'll continue to promote the benefits of paying the real living wage to business, including improvements to the quality of work of their staff, reduced absenteeism and positive impacts on recruitment and retention. 

Our economic action plan provides a context in which we will work with businesses in foundational sectors, such as retail, to understand better the challenges they face, and to promote the living wage as part of sustainable growth. This includes targeted work to support growth and value in these sectors, with the aim of supporting greater opportunities for progression and for decent pay. Again, Jenny Rathbone in particular pointed to the foundational sectors as those areas of activity where women in particular have faced considerable disadvantage. In driving up the availability of higher quality and more secure jobs, we intend to drive down the gap in pay between men and women. 

Now, a number of single parents felt that they face specific challenges in finding flexible work. We recognise that increases in the national minimum and living wages alone are simply not enough and need to be set alongside a suite of policies that support improved outcomes for low-income households. For example, our childcare offer will support working parents of three and four-year-olds, and this will increase employment choices, enabling those working part time to work more hours, and to support second earners into work. Households taking up the childcare offer are more likely to benefit from an increase in wage rates, and this combination of policies has the potential to have a positive impact on household income.

Our economic action plan introduces a new regionally focused model of economic development, and I'm pleased to see the broad support for this approach in the evidence given to the committee. The approach recognises the unique circumstances of each region and commits the Welsh Government to working collaboratively across Government and with partners to address challenges, build on strengths and develop distinctive opportunities to maximise growth across Wales. Janet Finch-Saunders identified the relatively high levels of unemployment that she is witnessing in her constituency, and the regional approach is directly intended to iron out regional inequalities across Wales, identifying the key strengths for each of the regions but also making sure that we tackle the individual challenges that our regions face.

Our ambition is also to make Wales a fair work nation, one where everybody can expect decent, life-enhancing work. Earlier this month, the First Minister announced that he had appointed Professor Linda Dickens from a shortlist of suitable, independent and authoritative candidates to chair the fair work commission. The independent commission will build on the work of the fair work board and look into many of the issues raised by the committee's report and more widely by people and organisations that have given evidence.

With nearly a quarter of people in Wales living in poverty, we do not underestimate the scale of the challenge. However, by working collaboratively with partners, we can build on our foundations, futureproof our economy and empower our people and communities so that everyone has the opportunity to contribute to and benefit from economic growth. Whilst I recognise the value of The Spirit Level as a critique of the inequality that we see across western capitalist economies, I also recommend to the chair of the committee Affluenza, as it, along with The Spirit Level, influenced the national strategy and the development of the economic action plan. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:12, 18 July 2018

(Translated)

I call on John Griffiths to reply to the debate. 

Photo of John Griffiths John Griffiths Labour

I'd like to thank all the Members who've contributed to the debate today and, obviously, the Cabinet Secretary, Llywydd. I think we've seen some common themes amongst some of the points raised—for example, the recommendation to have a tackling poverty strategy and its importance was raised by both Siân and Gareth, and I raised it in my opening remarks. As I said then, this is a matter that we will return to as a committee having made this recommendation now in two separate reports. 

Also, in terms of the third strand, as Janet put it, of the committee's tackling poverty work, this report is indeed that third strand and I think that highlights the importance that we attach to tackling poverty and of course its significance in Wales, where, as we all know, there are particular socioeconomic challenges within the UK that we need to understand and deal with. 

Also, Llywydd, there's been an emphasis on outcomes and measurability of Welsh Government strategy and policy in this area. That applies to the tackling poverty strategy but it also applies more generally. I very much agree with Members that that is something that we need to again return to as we move forward and seek further information and assurance from the Welsh Government. 

Also mentioned by Gareth and Siân was our recommendation that there should be an analysis of the risks and benefits of devolving administration of universal credit. Again, this is something that we raised in a previous report. So, again, we've addressed this matter and made these recommendations in two reports now, Llywydd. Again, we will not leave matters there, but I'm sure we'll return to those issues once more and also raise them in our scrutiny sessions with the Cabinet Secretary. So, again, we certainly intend to pursue that matter because we think it's a very important one and one that does require further analysis, further thought and further consideration.

Llywydd, I'm pleased that Jenny Rathbone responded to Gareth Bennett's comments on immigration because I think these are matters that need to be challenged in terms of the comments that Gareth made. I would add to what Jenny said in terms of the importance of people coming here to work to do vital jobs in our public services and how reliant those public services are on those workers, but it's also the case that, if we look at successful economies the world over, very often, they thrive on the energy, the talents, the skills that inward migration brings, and they've very much prospered by being open to that inward migration. People come in with real energy, starting their own firms and employing other people, as well as providing employment to other firms. Yes, Gareth.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 6:16, 18 July 2018

How do you therefore account for the fact that we now have wage stagnation and we have many people who are in full-time employment suffering from low wages?

Photo of John Griffiths John Griffiths Labour

Well I think, as ever, Gareth, that those are very complex matters that you can't simplistically solve by saying that we should have less inward migration to the UK and Wales. You know, we've been in an age of austerity now, sadly, for something like 10 years. It's a deliberate policy choice by the UK Government and it has led to wage stagnation as well as having many other, I would argue, harmful effects.

It was interesting that Jenny mentioned the Basque Country and the fact that they have firms there that have never, ever sacked a single employee, which I think is a great example of responsible and socially responsible employers. I note that Gareth told us that he's had 35 jobs, which is quite a number, Gareth, and good experience to bring to this sort of committee work, but it did strike me that you might think, if you're not successful at the next Assembly election, about getting further details from Jenny Rathbone of that employer in the Basque Country, which provides such sustainable and reliable employment over a period of time. But, of course, I'm sure they have a different attitude to immigration than yours, which would facilitate your movement, were you so inclined.

Can I say as well, Llywydd, that it is really important, I think, as Gareth mentioned, that we take procurement down to the subcontractor level? We do address that in the report, and I know that Welsh Government is alive to the need to not just look at those getting initial contracts from Welsh Government, but also the subcontractors that feed off that business, because, obviously, those subcontractors employ quite a number of people and we need to make sure that they're reached by the sort of good practice and responsible employment code of ethics on employment that we expect from the initial contractors under the procurement policy.

Llywydd, as I've said, there are a number of matters that we will return to as a committee. We do welcome the Welsh Government's shift in approach to economic development. We want to see the good intentions followed through in concrete actions that will really deliver for those at the sharp end of the economy, and we will keep a close eye on relevant developments and the implementation of our accepted recommendations—those accepted in full and those accepted in part. In particular, we will revisit them following publications of the procurement review and the outputs from the fair work commission. We will also continue to make that case for a cross-cutting anti-poverty strategy.

I'd like to conclude once again by thanking all of those who contributed to our inquiry. Diolch yn fawr. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:19, 18 July 2018

(Translated)

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

(Translated)

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.