The next group of amendments relates to the provision of toilets and local toilets strategies. Amendment 39 is the lead amendment in this group. I call on Caroline Jones to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Caroline Jones.

Amendment 39 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I wish to move the Amendment formally in my name. Amendment 39, tabled in my name, seeks, by way of Welsh Government guidance, to strengthen local toilet strategies by making clear the actions a local authority must take to address the need for public toilets in their local area in an effective and timely manner. I believe that this is the best way to achieve what the Majority of witnesses who gave evidence during Stage 1 and 2 proceedings wanted, which is a way to ensure that local authorities guarantee that there is adequate provision of public toilets in these areas.

In an ideal world, we would not be looking at ways to maximise the number of available toilets that the public can access; we would already have enough facilities to cater for this most basic of needs. But we don’t live in an ideal world; we live in a world where the elderly and the disabled are trapped in their own homes, unable to venture outside because they don’t have widespread access to public toilets.

The fact that the Bill simply requires councils to prepare a public toilets strategy will do nothing to improve provision or allay the concerns of those affected by the lack of provision. These concerns were shared not only by patient groups and the older people’s commissioner, but also by the NHS Confederation, the Association of Directors of Public Health, and Public Health Wales, who told the health committee that financial pressures on councils will mean that a strategy will not improve provision.

Amendment 39 strengthens the language used, and makes it clear to local authorities than they must take action, not merely put forward proposals, and that the actions they take are the most effective possible and are delivered in a reasonable timescale. I fear that, given the financial constraints placed upon us, this is the best we can hope for. Throughout the Stage 1 proceedings of this Bill I’ve felt that the Welsh Government needs to have a grasp of the overall picture of public toilet provision across Wales. It is no good to have 22 local toilet strategies if there is patchy provision in some parts of the country. Hence amendment 40 tabled in my name puts the onus on the Welsh Government to ensure that, combined, the local toilet strategies provide sufficient national provision.

I’m grateful to the Minister for accepting my argument during Stage 2 that we need to ensure that the guidance on toilet strategies covered collaboration between local authorities. I will support the Minister’s amendment 27, but feel that it could be strengthened to show that the reason for collaboration between authorities is to ensure adequate toilet provision across the respective regions. For this reason, I hope Members will support amendment 27A tabled in my name. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister. Rebecca Evans.

Thank you. The Bill includes a statutory duty on Welsh Ministers to publish guidance to which local authorities must have regard when developing their local toilet strategies. Section 110 of the Bill sets out a number of issues that this guidance must cover. The amendments in this group tabled by Caroline Jones seek to make changes to the content of that guidance. When amendments 39 and 40 were considered at Stage 2, I explained that I was unable to support them as they go beyond the policy intent, and would produce inconsistencies within the Bill. This remains my view, and I am unable to support them today. However, at Stage 2 I also made a commitment to give further consideration to one of the issues raised in a related Amendment, namely collaboration between local authorities in addressing needs for toilet provision, which could involve more than one authority. This might include, for example, provision on a major route that crosses two or more authorities. This consideration is now addressed in Government amendment 27, which requires the guidance issued by the Welsh Ministers to make provision about collaboration between local authorities on this issue.

Amendment 27A, however, seeks to extend this amendment by putting costly duties on local authorities during a period of austerity. Again, this would go beyond the policy intent, which is to improve the planning of toilets available to the public, so that they better meet the needs of communities. It would also result in inconsistencies within the Bill. I would therefore ask Members to reject amendments 39, 40 and 27A and to support Government amendment 27 in this group.

I call on Caroline Jones to respond to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. Obviously I’m disappointed that the amendments I’ve tabled have been rejected. I feel that in the interests of our elderly and in the interests of our disabled people who absolutely depend on the provision of toilets to just go about their daily duties, it is those that I’m speaking for. Diolch yn fawr.

The question is that Amendment 39 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We’ll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 22, there were no abstentions and there were 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 39 not agreed: For 22, Against 27, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 39.

Amendment 40, Caroline Jones.

Amendment 40 (Caroline Jones) moved.

Formally move.

The question is that Amendment 40 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We’ll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 40 not agreed: For 20, Against 27, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 40.

Minister, Amendment 27.

Amendment 27 (Rebecca Evans) moved.

Yes, formally.

Before disposing of Amendment 27, we will first dispose of the amendment to it. Caroline Jones, amendment 27A.

Amendment 27A (Caroline Jones) moved.

Formally move.

The question is that Amendment 27A be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We’ll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 24, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 27A not agreed: For 24, Against 27, Abstain 0.

Result of the vote on amendment 27A.

The question is that Amendment 27 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 27 is agreed.

Amendment 27 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.