7. When did the First Minister first call for the abolition of tolls on the Severn bridges? OAQ(5)0282(FM)

It was in our manifesto in May. I’ll send him a copy if he wants.

I’ve read the manifesto—

I thought he might have done. [Laughter.]

My previous quote was:

‘We couldn't abolish the tolls, let's be perfectly frank about that. But of course any money that is raised could be applied to the M4’.

But that was in 2012, and I credit the First Minister for the position he now adopts. I've raised with him the issue that the UK Government's own powers to levy tolls under the Severn Bridges Act 1992 expire after a certain amount of money has been raised, recently estimated at £88 million. And, on a half toll, those powers wouldn't take it beyond 2019. Will the First Minister commit to exploiting his Government’s and this Assembly's powers to the maximum possible extent to prevent tolling thereafter?

Yes. I should've known you would have read the manifesto, of course, but, yes, I will make that commitment. I reiterate what I said to him in the committee on Friday, that that is something that needs to be examined carefully.

At a recent meeting of the Welsh Affairs Committee, the UK Government transport Minister, Andrew Jones, said that income from tolls on the Severn bridges would not be used as a profit-making exercise once they are returned to public ownership. Given that the bridges generate more than £90 million a year in revenue, but cost only £14 million to maintain, will the First Minister join me in welcoming this indication of a significant cut in tolls in the near future in Wales?

Well, I’d prefer it if we controlled the tolls ourselves—they are in Wales, after all. That would be a significant step forward. I think the problem is that I have seen so many different figures for the maintenance of both bridges. They range from £20 million plus to over £100 million, I've seen as well. I think the issue is what the condition of the original bridge is. So, I think it's hugely important that there is a proper survey of both bridges, so it's understood what the liabilities that surround those bridges are, and also what the maintenance costs are likely to be going forward. Then we’ll have a better idea of what money needs to be found in order for the tolls to be abolished.

First Minister, last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure met the UK Tory Government transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, and told him in no uncertain terms that the tolls should be scrapped and that, if the UK Government was not prepared to do that, it should not make a profit, but simply charge the actual cost of maintenance. Maybe the Member for South Wales East, Mark Reckless, could place in the Assembly Library his contributions from Hansard when he raged against his Tory UK Government's exploitation of the Welsh economy by their refusal to scrap or minimise the Severn bridge tolls, but I doubt it. Will the First Minister state how the Welsh Government can continue to stand up for the people of Wales in the face of a UK Tory Government that is literally profiteering at their expense?

Well, we did suggest that we should take over the running of the bridges, subject, of course, to a proper survey and a proper understanding of the maintenance of those bridges. That was rejected. At the time, we were told that the tolls would remain because they provided a source of income for the Department of Transport for spending on roads in England—not a penny was going to come to Wales at that point. I think it's worth emphasising, of course, that, as we look at the tolls, if we move to a situation where the tolls are abolished, or if the UK Government at some point looks at e-tolling, that would cause traffic to arrive more quickly at the Brynglas tunnels, therefore adding to congestion at the Brynglas tunnels. So, the issue of Brynglas and the issue of the bridges needs to be considered carefully, because of the impact that toll reduction has on traffic arriving then in Newport.