7. Will the First Minister provide an update on tax devolution? OAQ(5)0150(FM)

Yes. We’re on target to deliver the devolved Welsh taxes, and collection and management arrangements. From April 2018, we will be able to do so, but that will depend, of course, on the agreement of a fiscal framework for Wales, which is hugely important.

Thank you, First Minister. As you know, I’ve supported the fiscal framework. I was pleased to attend the finance Secretary’s meeting with the new chief executive of the Welsh Revenue Authority last Thursday to discuss the process of appointing the chair to the new organisation. This is clearly going to be one of the most important new roles in Wales in recent times. Tax devolution will only succeed, First Minister, if the public can have confidence in it. Clearly, at the moment very few people are even aware that it’s happening. How are you ensuring that we get the right quality and the right calibre of candidates to apply for this new role at the WRA? How is your Welsh Government publicising the whole devolution of taxation so that, when it does start to happen in 2018, the public are fully aware of what’s going on with their tax Bills?

There will be a communications plan, as ever. We did this, of course, with the human transplantation Act—and we saw the effects of that—where the vast Majority of people were aware of the legislation and aware of its contents. The Welsh Revenue Authority will be hugely important, of course, in terms of being able to collect a tax that is fair, robust and, above all, can be collected and cannot be avoided very easily. We understand the need to do that. So, I’ve got no difficulty in believing that we will have a sufficient calibre of candidates from which to choose the chair of the authority.

First Minister, do you agree with me that it’s of prime importance, in devolving any taxes, for Wales to suffer no detriment from the devolution of those taxes? Will you press for independent arbitration to resolve disputes with the Treasury? I don’t want to sound pessimistic, but I have a feeling that we may end up with the odd dispute with the Treasury. And if the Treasury acts as judge and jury in that case, we are likely to come off second best. So, if there are going to be any disputes, we need some form of fair arbitration.

I agree entirely. One thing that I can say to him is that the Secretary of State for Wales knows and understands that any support for the Wales Bill will depend on a fiscal framework being in place. There’s no good having that and then having the fiscal framework. Scotland was given that courtesy. There’s no reason why Wales shouldn’t have the same level of courtesy. And he’s right, of course: at the moment, the dispute resolutions process within the JMC is such that, if there is a dispute with the Treasury, then the dispute rolls on until it is eventually decided by the Treasury. So, there is no third party involved. I made arguments at the time that there should be an independent panel of arbitrators. That’s not something that the UK Government at the time were prepared to accept. There are, of course, models elsewhere. In Australia, there is a grants commission that acts independently in order to arbitrate between states and between states and the federal Government. There is no reason why this can’t happen here. We just need to make sure that the Treasury understands that it can’t be judge and jury on everything.

First Minister, I have a solution for you with regard to the communication of the tax-raising powers that you are going to be getting. Now, the vast Majority of people, if we are honest, have no idea that this is coming down the track towards them. There is a way for you to let people know what is actually happening and also for you to be able to have the communication—two-way—with the public, and that’s to give them a referendum. Don’t go blaming costs and all the rest of it, which I know you normally do. Do you trust the people of Wales, and will you have that discussion with them, and will you allow them to have their voice heard? [Interruption.] It is genius, thank you.

I am grateful to the Member for his advice. He won’t be surprised that I don’t accept his advice that a referendum that would cost £4 million would be of particular help, given the fact that political parties in their manifestos explained their position to the people of Wales at the election in May. The people of Wales took a decision in terms of what they wanted to do. This is an issue that’s properly decided at an election, and the people of Wales gave their views.