Andrew Pelling: The hon. Gentleman has demonstrated his long-standing experience of local government, along with a recognition of the inevitability of Government involvement. In my view, while authorities continue to have a degree of discretion equalisation is inevitable. I think that that 1980s Croydon local authority adopted a rather municipalist approach, perhaps a little more independent than the more...
Andrew Pelling: I am extremely interested to hear that similar projects are being pursued elsewhere in London. It has always been a great weakness of local government and local councillors that they are obsessed with the grandiose, and with aggrandisement at home in the town hall, when it is services that are important. It is wrong that services are being cut back at the same time as such new projects are...
Andrew Pelling: A worrying trend is being revealed in this debate. It is incumbent on local authorities to be concerned primarily about services, rather than about building new town halls. If Croydon council desires to move location, the best way of doing so would be for it to become a tenant of Stanhope, which has the real desire to start developing on the site next to East Croydon station. No doubt many...
Andrew Pelling: Does it not have a tremendously debilitating effect on both the quality of candidates and on voting, if people do not feel that councillors have real influence in the community or can make a difference? Is it not in many ways a reflection of the pretty poor state of British politics? Does it not in reality underline how the Executive continue to absorb powers whether from Parliament or by...
Andrew Pelling: Would not local authorities be even more effective at economic development if we returned to them what a Conservative Government took away, namely full discretion over business rates? They could then run their cities and towns competitively in order to attract business and prosperity.
Andrew Pelling: The hon. Lady talks about uncertainty. If the Liberal Democrats had leverage over an incoming Government in a hung Parliament -[Interruption.] You have no reason to smile, because that is a possibility. In such a circumstances, what timetable would you have for introducing a local income tax?
Andrew Pelling: The hon. Lady was quite right to underline how she is talking about the urgency of reform. She mentioned gearing, and a strong example of that is the London authority, where the gearing is one in 12-the system there is ridiculous. As there is urgency, do you feel that a Liberal Democrat-influenced Government would seek an urgent change to the local government financial system in the first year?
Andrew Pelling: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Andrew Pelling: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Andrew Pelling: Will the hon. Lady give way at that point?
Andrew Pelling: I am sure that the hon. Lady simply could not see or hear me-that is why I came across to the Labour Benches. I am grateful to her for giving way. May I compliment her on dealing with the shells that have been dropped by some of the heavyweights who have decided to take part in this debate and have a go at her? May I ask her two questions about the points that she has raised? She mentioned...
Andrew Pelling: rose-
Andrew Pelling: Will the Secretary of State give way?
Andrew Pelling: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Andrew Pelling: The Secretary of State is clearly hitting the target as regards the Conservative party's rather soft position on those issues, but, nevertheless, are not his comments a real comment themselves on the relationship between central and local government? This Government have not released local government to pursue its own financial affairs. The fact that national parties are talking about...
Andrew Pelling: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way as I know she wants to make progress. She has been leading the campaign not only in this debate but elsewhere, and she should be congratulated. Does she agree with my constituent, Colin Withey, and with the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow), that the franchise should be removed? A 50 per cent. reduction is absolutely appalling.
Andrew Pelling: The list of the many things that the hon. Lady has done shows that I was right to say at the beginning just how much she has been working on behalf of all of us. Does she think that if the Government decide no longer to be asleep at the wheel, an alternative approach might be for them to allow other franchises to provide other services? Perhaps there could be additional stops. The Gatwick...
Andrew Pelling: I apologise that I am not a member of the hon. Gentleman's all-party Thameslink route group. Someone who represents East Croydon station should definitely be a member of such a group. Would he agree that the small public sector investment in that station was important because it ended up relieving a great deal of stress and strain in terms of cross-London passenger traffic? Does that not...
Andrew Pelling: In all practicality, is there really that much difference between the two main parties' migration policies? Will the Minister also refer to my earlier point about the asylum seeker centre in Croydon?
Andrew Pelling: The hon. Gentleman can freely attack me for being naive in asking this, but what would happen when the limit was hit, say, nine months into the year?