Did you mean over human intelligence?
David Davis: ...that power taken away from it. That is the origin of this Bill; that is where it comes from. So what did the Government do? They cobbled together all the existing practices of their various police, intelligence and other agencies, good and bad—there were both good and bad—and set out to put them into law. That is not just theoretically problematic; it does not work perfectly today. For...
the Earl of Lytton: My Lords, I added my name to speak to this group, primarily in support of Amendment 23. I, too, declare my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association. This matter has been magisterially covered by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, so anything I say will be a mere shadow of what he and the other speakers have put down. I, too, received the briefings, both before Second Reading...
Kevan Jones: ...forever. I think he does not quite understand why the Government are not at least moving on this. The ISC’s remit is defined in the Justice and Security Act 2013. It sets out which Departments we cover, and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is not one of them. However, as I said last week, security is increasingly being covered by other Departments, and this Bill is a...
Lord West of Spithead: ...box, looking in to make sure that we behaved. I am speaking against the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, albeit that she put it eloquently. We should be proud of the Bill. Putting our covert human intelligence agents’ behaviour on a statutory basis is to be praised. As I have said, agents save lives. In working under cover, CHIS need to be trusted by those on whom they are...
Humza Yousaf: ...in various quarters. During the House of Lords stages of the bill, the need to address non-permitted conduct in some way in the bill has also been raised. It has also been raised by many respected human rights organisations. I acknowledge and share that concern, but I also recognise, of course, that that issue is not always straightforward, especially if it is not dealt with on a...
Viscount Brookeborough: ..., I had not intended to intervene—[Inaudible]—discussed in the context of CHIS operating in non-terrorist criminal organisations and rather less of those in terrorist groups. Because the Bill covers both at once, I feel there is a danger—[Inaudible]—extent that it might seriously inhibit the latter, which is the fight against terrorism. I therefore cannot fully support the...
Lord Paddick: ...the ends do not justify the means, in the same way that using children as informants or agents is difficult to justify under any circumstances. Regrettably, banning the use of children as covert human intelligence sources is outside the scope of the Bill. He went on to recall the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, who suggested as an alternative to using children using...
Lord Paddick: ...and arguably this is more serious than those powers. I was a little confused by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, who gave two examples of very serious criminal offences, which are of course covered by those aspects of the power that refer to the prevention and detection of crime. We are talking here about something that has an impact on the economic well-being of the UK that is not...
Baroness Massey of Darwen: ...5 and 23 and my noble friend Lord Rosser has made incisive comments on them. I will add just a few comments in support of my noble friend’s arguments. Basically, the issues in the amendments are covered in Chapter 7 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report on CHIS, entitled “Adequacy of oversight mechanisms”—surely absolutely essential. The Joint Committee had several concerns...
Baroness Williams of Trafford: ...noble Lord, Lord Carlile, whom I do consider my noble friend, posits some of the points that noble Lords have made about whether we are dodging the rule of law. We are not. We are putting covert human intelligence sources engaging in criminal conduct beyond statutory doubt in the Bill. I will begin with Amendments 1 and 2. The question of whether properly authorised conduct should be...
Lord True: ...to hearing the wisdom of the House of Lords and ideas on how we could use the new freedoms we have gained. I fear that I heard very few constructive suggestions, but I accept that, in a typically intelligent intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, set out a lot of areas where there would be grounds for agreement between us and the Opposition going forward. My noble...
Lord Rosser: ...requires a review within six months by a High Court judge that would consider the grant of criminal conduct authorisations in relation to children or vulnerable people, the conduct of covert human intelligence sources, the oversight and monitoring of, and reporting on, such conduct, the oversight of persons allowed to authorise criminal conduct authorisations, and the sanctions available...
Baroness Williams of Trafford: .... Again, I urge noble Lords to read the case studies that have been published to reassure themselves about the contexts in which they might seek to use the power. Alongside law enforcement and the intelligence services, some of our wider public authorities have important responsibilities for investigating and preventing criminal activity and protecting the economic well-being of the United...
Lord Paddick: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, who has great experience of these issues, spoke about our having thus far overlooked the dangers faced by undercover operatives. Little has been said about operational safeguards. Indeed, perhaps I may take this opportunity to mention that I was contacted by a noble friend this morning who emphasised the bravery of undercover operatives, who...
Drew Hendry: ...so much more restrictive than that of the EU—well, we can probably work that one out”. —[Official Report, House of Lords, 9 December 2020; Vol. 808, c. 1268-69.] Let us not forget that this covers a huge range of effects for people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland: “environmental standards and protection…animal welfare…consumer standards, including digital and...
Lord Clement-Jones: ...to publish its national health and care data strategy in the new year, in which it is expected to prioritise the “safe, effective and ethical use of data-driven technologies, such as artificial intelligence, to deliver fairer health outcomes.” Health professionals have strongly argued that free trade deals risk compromising the safe storage and processing of NHS data. Through this...
Baroness Deech: ...that I was not able to vote for the previous amendment, although I am very much in support of this one, because I felt that there were ambiguities—not least because there are offenders against human rights very close to us, such as in Poland, Hungary and Greece. This amendment is quite different. It is one of the most profound and important amendments to be discussed in your Lordships’...
Lord Young of Cookham: ...impact assessment developed by the Department for Education in 2018 had been undertaken for this Bill. It would have illuminated our debate. The amendment would not prohibit the use of children as covert human intelligence sources entirely. That would have been my preference, but unfortunately it is outside the scope of the Bill. Therefore, the amendment is narrower, focusing on the...
Baroness Chakrabarti: ...future. No disrespect is intended to a Government of any particular stripe. It has been drafted with some care, because I understand that it is difficult to limit the precise positive purposes of a covert human intelligence source, not least because the Government have chosen in this legislation to cover a wide range of public authorities and their investigatory, regulatory and...
Lord Paddick: My Lords, I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, about seeking clarity as to who is covered not just because a criminal conduct authorisation authorises somebody to commit a crime, but because they have, as a consequence, both civil and criminal legal immunity. As we and other noble Lords have argued, immunity from prosecution should be decided after the event by...