Geoff Hoon: I included the quotation from Benjamin Franklin because it quite nicely covered the point that I wished to make. I now regret that, because it has provoked an historical debate which is not strictly relevant to our discussions.
Geoff Hoon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is the direction in which I hope to continue.
Geoff Hoon: No, I should make some progress. I am strongly convinced that, if we are to achieve a common foreign policy, it will be on the basis of a series of pragmatic steps. A step-by-step approach is the only way in which we can transfer relevant competences from member states to the European Community. The present European Community and Atlantic alliance will continue to be the solid foundations of...
Geoff Hoon: No. I had better continue my speech. The implementation of a common foreign and security policy will allow the European Community and its member states to maintain their role on the world stage. It will contribute to the transition from confrontation to a more common approach. These policies need to be based on agreed principles. The implementation of those principles should have clear...
Geoff Hoon: In a moment. As the European Community develops those policies, consistent with the step-by-step philosophy that I have already outlined, we need to develop priorities for joint action.
Geoff Hoon: I shall now give way to my hon. Friend.
Geoff Hoon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I should have given way to him earlier. He has made the point much more clearly than I have done. Therefore, I thank him for his comments.
Geoff Hoon: I shall now give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Geoff Hoon: That is precisely the issue that we need to develop. We must achieve mutual confidence. If we are to persuade all 12 sovereign states to take the action that the hon. Gentleman and I agree is necessary, they will do so only on the basis of the step-by-step approach that I have outlined. I hope that, for once, we shall be able to agree that action will be taken only if together we take those...
Geoff Hoon: In a moment. Similarly, participation in the conference on security and co-operation in Europe and the contribution that we can make together towards strengthening the United Nations ought to be policies that we are capable of developing together rather than as separate nation states.
Geoff Hoon: Having had a number of years of experience of the European Commission, I do not find it quite so frightening as my hon. Friend appears to do.
Geoff Hoon: The reason why I have less concern than my hon. Friend appears to have is clear in the terms of his own question: the Commission may have the powers of initiation. Why should we be afraid of the powers of initiation?
Geoff Hoon: They have the power to put forward ideas. It is then, even under the existing arrangement, for the member states to decide what should be the conclusion. I cannot see why that should be such a frightening prospect. The essentially pragmatic development of a foreign policy, in my view, resembles the way in which the Community already deals with the GATT issue, external trade...
Geoff Hoon: On a point of order, Mr. Morris. I have no wish to complicate matters still further or make your already difficult job still more difficult. But I invite you to look again at amendment No. 453, which stands in my name. You might feel, on having looked at that amendment again and on further reflection, that it affords you an opportunity to achieve a compromise between the various views that...
Geoff Hoon: I refer my right hon. Friend to the words of new clause 74, which states that the Bill cannot come into force before there is a debate on the social chapter. Therefore, it follows that the Government could not ratify the treaty before that debate has taken place.
Geoff Hoon: The right hon. Gentleman used the provision of social security to illustrate the difference between the European Community and the United States. As the protocol on social policy requires unanimity on social security, does he accept that that does not change in any respect whatsoever the existing treaty provisions which the Government support?
Geoff Hoon: The debate on the social protocol demonstrates the difficulties into which the Government got themselves by opting out of the social chapter. Every other Government in the Community regards it as a necessary vital balancing item in the creation of a European single market. The Governments of the left, right and centre recognise the importance of establishing basic standards of social...
Geoff Hoon: It has always been my view that the higher the standards of social protection, the better developed and better trained the work force will be. They will be able to develop and enjoy more expertise. New clause 74 has attracted so much opposition because it displaced amendment No. 27 in which so much hope was placed by those who want to see the Maastricht treaty defeated. Those opponents...
Geoff Hoon: On the contrary. I said that I would welcome the possibility of the legal and constitutional questions being resolved because, as I said, I have doubts about what the Attorney-General said. So I hope a way can be found to retable amendment No. 27 or something similar to it. I do not see that amendment as being inconsistent with new clauses 74 or 75. After all, new clause 74 says that the...
Geoff Hoon: I do not want to get into a debate about the selection of amendments—we have been through that already—but there is a distinction. I suspect that the amendment to which my hon. Friend refers sought to amend the treaty. The amendment that would be tabled to the resolution which the Government introduced in consequence of new clause 74 would not amend the treaty but would place a road block...