Mr David Alton: I had hoped that the Minister would refer to that letter. As he said, many of the issues, including the cases that, quite properly, were raised today, were referred to in Committee, and the letter was sent by the Minister of State on 31 January. It might be helpful to hon. Members if the letter were published so that they can see it properly. Members of the Committee found it helpful.
Mr David Alton: I support the amendments. I assure the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) that his persistent campaign on the issue has not gone unnoticed. His efforts, and those of the hon. Members for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) and for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), should commend themselves to the Government and command all-party support. It is ironic that only yesterday we were told...
Mr David Alton: I beg to move amendment No. 23, in page 1, line 18, after 'territory', insert '(which is not a country or territory listed in the Appendix to this Schedule)'.
Mr David Alton: I think that the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson) will refer specifically to amendment No. 21, which involves Pakistan. The purpose of the amendments is to exclude from the scope of the designated list countries whose human rights records are deplorable or, at the very minimum, questionable. Two of the amendments deal with specific countries in order to raise first, the...
Mr David Alton: I am grateful to the Minister for her answers. We should be careful before emasculating the powers of the House. The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Atkinson), my hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Miss Nicholson) and I have been able to put specific points about Romania and Pakistan. By approving the Bill in its present form, the House is denying itself the right ever...
Mr David Alton: I support what the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) said. I should like to speak also to amendments Nos. 24 and 25, which would allow countries to be dealt with individually, not by a "block vote" and allow Parliament to vote in a proper manner instead of using the negative procedure that we have already discussed extensively. In Committee, other countries were...
Mr David Alton: With the leave of the House, Madam Speaker. I am grateful to the Minister for the tone that he adopted. The debate has demonstrated that there is no monopoly on compassion in any part of the House: it has united opinion. Hon. Members on both sides of the House made eloquent speeches in support of the principles enshrined in the convention. There is no doubt that we all subscribe to those...
Mr David Alton: In political life, we are all prone—especially in the lead-up to a general election—to making quite a lot of the motives of our opponents. Much has been said on Second Reading, in Committee and today about the possible motives behind the timing and nature of the Bill. These new clauses move us from the debate about motives to evaluation—what the impact of the Bill is likely to be. That...
Mr David Alton: Yes—42 different documents may have to be validated by an employer at one time or another. The documents range across a spectrum of subjects. I see that the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson) has the list in his hand.
Mr David Alton: I know that the hon. Lady argues for choice, but we are talking about 42 separate and different documents, any one of which could come before a perplexed employer at any time. Over the years, if people arrive from different parts of the world, an employer may have to deal with any one of those 42 documents—that is clearly what the effect will be. The provision is in line with the...
Mr David Alton: The hon. Lady knows that I am opposed to the breaking of the law. There are already laws that provide safeguards: where abuses occur, it is possible to take the matter to court. It is also possible—the hon. Lady knows this as she does it all the time—to remove people from this country if they break our existing laws. Had the CBI, the chambers of commerce, and employers exerted pressure...
Mr David Alton: I do not particularly want employers to be taken to court by the Minister's Department, or punitive sentences to be placed on them, or to see their businesses crippled and them broken as a result. I do not think that such a system would help the cause of the unemployed or businesses. I do not think that there is a problem of the magnitude that the hon. Lady tries to imply. Action can be, and...
Mr David Alton: The hon. Gentleman was right to mention the "light touch", which contrasts with the Minister's earlier heavy-handed intervention. She is now promising us punitive prosecutions that will be deployed against employers throughout the land. That will have a disastrous effect on industrial relations. I hope that members of the CBI will read carefully the report of our debate in Hansard so that...
Mr David Alton: I would not want the Minister to misrepresent me. I said that existing law already covers employees. In her estimation, how many employers are guilty of breaking the laws by employing people illegally? When she gives us the figures, as I hope that she now will, we shall know whether there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Mr David Alton: rose—
Mr David Alton: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. If she says that she is giving me up for Lent, I shall be quite happy to accept that privation. I must press her further on the number of employers who were prosecuted last year. Will she confirm that the number was fewer than 15?
Mr David Alton: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. I am grateful to those hon. Members from other parties who have added their names to the new clause, because that demonstrates the breadth of concern about victims of torture and the way they are treated. That concern extends to the attempt to have them excluded from the fast-track procedures, which is the purpose of new clause 5. The...
Mr David Alton: It seems to me that the Minister is saying that, if the empirical evidence can be provided, at least the Home Office might have an open mind. I want to be clear whether that is really what she is saying. Will she ask Mr. Justice Sedley, to whom I referred, to give evidence to the Home Office on his recommendation, and undertake to look at the Australian scheme, which functions perfectly properly?
Mr David Alton: I support new clause 1. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mr. Deva) is not present in the House. In Committee he put forward a fundamentally good idea, which has given rise to this debate. However, I believe that his new clause 7 creates conflicts, complications and contradictions. The hon. Member for Blackburn is right: new clause 1 has a lighter regulatory touch...
Mr David Alton: The Secretary of State will accept that Canada is not entirely parallel to the UK for these purposes, but will he reflect that only 4 per cent. of cases in this country are judged to be convention refugees, whereas in Canada 70 per cent. of those who apply are accepted for convention purposes? Does that—and the even more significant comparisons that can be made with other EC countries—not...
