Mr Barry Henderson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman has suggested that Conservative Members are undemocratic, but it was a Labour Member who used undemocratic means to stop the Committee going about its business, even though he was not a member of it.
Mr Barry Henderson: I do not believe that any experiment, total or partial, should be undertaken before the scheme is carried out. I am grateful to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench for changing the implementation programme of the Bill. That change has met one of the objections causing some anxiety to local authorities.
Mr Barry Henderson: Which proposal is the hon. Gentleman talking about?
Mr Barry Henderson: I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman has once again illustrated my argument. I suggest he studies the Committee proceedings, for he will discover that he is, yet again, wrong. When Fife regional council discovered that COSLA was feeding information only to the Labour party in Committee it briefed me on a number of matters of concern to it. One thing that was especially emphasised by the...
Mr Barry Henderson: As I would expect, my hon. Friend's recollections are much more precise than those of the hon. Member for Cathcart. I believe that the change in the implementation programme will assist local authorities in their planning and preparation for the changes that will take place. At the same time, it will enable the benefits to reach domestic ratepayers in Scotland as quickly as practicable. I...
Mr Barry Henderson: In that case I am even more surprised that the hon. Gentleman has been unable to explain that system either to the Committee or to the House this afternoon. I encourage my right hon. and hon. Friends to proceed as speedily as possible with the proposals. In time I believe that they will prove of benefit to all Scottish people.
Mr Barry Henderson: Does the hon. Gentleman feel that that is something of a condemnation of the Labour Members who served on the Committee, that after about 1,200 columns of Hansard they have not asked the right questions to elicit exactly how this scheme will operate?
Mr Barry Henderson: Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr Barry Henderson: Is not the logic of what the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) says that a Labour Government—
Mr Barry Henderson: In his brief opening remarks, following the 25-minute speech of the hon. Member for Garscadden, does my right hon. and learned Friend feel that it would be more understandable if one of the independent bodies put on the commission proposed by the Opposition was the Scottish Co-operative Society, which has obviously found great difficulty in paying its rates to Fife regional council?
Mr Barry Henderson: Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) sounded more like the alliance candidate who, when asked what time it was, said "What time would you like it to be, dear fellow?"
Mr Barry Henderson: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Craigen). If he had been a member of the Committee, he would have been struck by the extent to which this measure stood up to parliamentary scrutiny. My right hon. and learned Friend introduced the Bill to the House in an encouraging way. Those of us who recognise the difficulties of producing a substantial and radical measure to...
Mr Barry Henderson: The hon. Member for Motherwell, South (Dr. Bray) took a long time to do what I should have thought was difficult to do, and that is to turn the lively dance and success story of the information technology industry into something resembling a funeral dirge. He mentioned data bases. I wonder whether he has seen the BEST system — that is, the British Expertise Science and Technology...
Mr Barry Henderson: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has already taken up so much time that only five minutes are left for my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Knight), who has been here throughout the debate, and me. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall) on so admirably initiating our debate. He played an important part in kicking off this work. I remember sitting...
Mr Barry Henderson: Would the hon. Gentleman care to bet whether there will ever be a Labour councillor in northeast Fife, or whether the Labour candidate in north-east Fife will get a higher percentage of the vote than the Tory candidate in his constituency?
Mr Barry Henderson: Did not the Committee take over 25 hours to debate clause I, which contains the simple proposition that, from April 1990, domestic rates will be abolished? It is an important matter of principle certainly, but should it have required 25 hours to debate that straightforward proposition?
Mr Barry Henderson: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, for public service broadcasting, we pay a television licence fee or tax which is unrelated to ability to pay and which, for many people, will be lower—or higher—than they would be required to pay as a community charge for the range of local government services? Has not the hon. Gentleman got this out of perspective?
Mr Barry Henderson: Does it not say something about the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) and his hon. Friends that the hon. Gentleman uses undemocratic means to advance his cause but when he has the opportunity to talk about the timetable on the Bill he fails to do so, preferring to raise another bogus point of order rather than argue his case in an honourable and democratic way?
Mr Barry Henderson: That is .just the Front Bench.
Mr Barry Henderson: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that if local government conducted its business in the way that this Committee has conducted its business in terms of the time taken to discuss perfectly simple matters, even he might consider that we should legislate to change the way in which local government did its business?