Mr Barry Henderson: The Opposition will say that I am detaining the House when there is a guillotine. I am doing my best to make a brief speech which is relevant to the Bill and I am being prevented from doing so by Opposition Members. I shall give way if they want me to, so long as they do not then accuse me of making a long speech.
Mr Barry Henderson: I think that I shall get on. The hon. Member has had 100 hours to make his arguments, which he did incompetently and inadequately. He will get a chance to make his own speech before the end of the debate. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will consider further representations on this matter and make this one exemption to the community charge in another place. I hope that a satisfactory...
Mr Barry Henderson: Indeed. The Bill proves that the Government care about Scotland and that it is the Tories who speak for Scotland and want to correct a system that has been unjust for years. Opposition Members are right to say that the community charge will apply to all adults in Scotland, but they are wrong when they say, as they often do, that all will pay the same. I hope that they will try to remember to...
Mr Barry Henderson: With characteristic candour, the hon. Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) made it clear that the phrase "excessive and unreasonable", which is critical to the whole exercise, first appeared in legislation enacted by the Labour party and, I may say, voted for by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan).
Mr Barry Henderson: Does the hon. Gentleman wish to intervene?
Mr Barry Henderson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for telling us that the first use of the phrase was in 1929. But that does not mean that we can get away from the fact that it was used again in the 1966 Act, which was introduced by the Labour party and supported by the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland, who now seeks to distance himself from it. The concept has been important in local government...
Mr Barry Henderson: My hon. Friend may have explained why the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) is out of the Chamber at the same time as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar).
Mr Barry Henderson: I was delighted to hear that the hon. Gentleman seemed to be advocating the whole concept of contracting out of services where that would be most effective.
Mr Barry Henderson: The definition should be sufficiently similar in the two sets of regulations so that the computer programme that is designed to handle one is able to handle the other. There lies the main problem.
Mr Barry Henderson: Fife regional council has made a small administrative point, which may more appropriately be raised in relation to the next group of amendments, but which relates to clause 12(8) as well as to clause 13(8). That is the determination of the multiplier. Fife regional council asks that the multiplier should be restricted to two decimal points. I put this hesitantly, because I think that it is...
Mr Barry Henderson: The hon. Gentleman must not make the English too worried about this, for two reasons. First, all English students going to Scottish universities will receive help to meet the community charge. Secondly, at the moment, a very large proportion of the English students at St. Andrews receive no grant or assistance towards their rates bills when they live in flats outside the university. In...
Mr Barry Henderson: Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) was wrong to think that there was any serious danger of English students not coming to Scottish universities because of this, given the scale of commitment that a student is making in coming to any university and that the benefits that he will gain from coming to a Scottish university far outweigh any matters of...
Mr Barry Henderson: I have two brief points to make. My hon. Friend the Minister will know that I met Fife regional council recently, and it has been having discussion within the Scottish forum for rating, valuation and other revenues. My hon. Friend will know that the forum is organised for the benefit of Scottish local authorities involved in rating, valuation and the collection of other revenues. Members...
Mr Barry Henderson: Many will pay less.
Mr Barry Henderson: I meant that some students who currently pay rates but get no compensation in their grant will by definition be better off under the new arrangements.
Mr Barry Henderson: On the hon. Gentleman's remarks about students financing themselves, a student has only to be eligible for a grant to be entitled to gain from this provision, as I understand it. Even if their parents pay entirely for their maintenance and they receive no grant, they will still receive assistance towards the community charge.
Mr Barry Henderson: This matter is of considerable importance to local authorities that have a substantial student population. Six hundred and fifty hon. Members will not make much difference to heaven knows how many London boroughs, but 3,000 students at St. Andrews will make a great difference to the economics of a district council such as Fife or a comparatively small district council such as Stirling.
Mr Barry Henderson: At worst, it would have been for one year during the transition. However, now that the transitional period has been telescoped, it will not arise at all as a serious problem.
Mr Barry Henderson: It is £39.
Mr Barry Henderson: rose—